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Old 2003-12-01, 06:52 PM   #81
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lex
yet how many stopped buying it?
I'm not picking up the ongoing, and I've bought part of G1 Vol. 2 and resold it. Though that had as much to do with the story as the art. Story is the reason I buy comics... if I'm mainly buying for the art, I might just as well get posters.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
WW was planned very early on, around the time #3 had hit the stands, furman and Pat Lee had already had the basic outline of the plot down, according to a interview in wizard magazine. reviewing the newfound success of the TF toyline, and other old school liscenses.
I can't see TWW as having been as successful had the models been left to Pat. We've already seen his interpretation of some of Don's designs, and it really does serve to highlight the differences between the two.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Its interesting that some people here see a few episodes of tekkaman, sailor moon, pokemon, card captor sakura, and think they know anime. Nope, but the genre is far deeper then that.
You've just completely sunk any remaining credibility, far as I can see.

Anime isn't a genre. It's a medium.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Sure as hell hasnt stopped Pat from building a successful comic company that is wiping the floor with some of the bigger companies titles in terms of sales, is it?
I don't see the hordes attracted to Dreamwave's other titles. Seems very much that Transformers is hooking a nostalgia audience... and that's in no way a bad thing. More on that after the next paragraph.

I fear it won't last far into an ongoing. When people buy a mini-series, they know how much they'll spend to get a 'complete' storyline. With an ongoing, there's less incentive to keep buying to complete the set... if Dreamwave have any sense (and I feel they have this much) they'll divide the ongoing into clear story arcs and make it easy for people to collect. They also won't burden 'completist' collectors with too many concurrent books.

I hope it lasts. TWW is very definitely a second-string title dependent on the success of the company as a whole... much as the Armada & Energon toylines create a climate in which the 'G1' reissues can thrive.
 
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Old 2003-12-01, 07:23 PM   #82
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Right now your argument consists of "Lots of people like Pat Lee, therefore you're wrong". Of course you don't bother to show that it is the case that lots of people like Lee.
since you cant seem to see a point that is longer then a sentence, Im surprised you can see anything at all with your head so far up your ass, Im gonna say this as simply as possible

strafe, your a dick.

The Point, is the same Ive been making all along. That the division of the stance on Pat Lee, is one I saw coming from day one. Its just really unfair to label him as a bad artist just cuz the medium he employs is an alien one to most non asian readers. Ive been saying that for two bloody months now, on transfans, and here. You dont like him, thats just prime. My life will go on just fine... But for the love of god, have some respect for others that do like him. Ive posted my points on why Pat Lee is a good artist, and why I like him, and why he is popular, enough times. Go back and read em you inbred tool, or does the 2 year old that reads em for you not know how to scroll back yet?

Quote:
Do you understand that an argument has to have some sort of support to make it work
Okay, how bout this... considering the complaints I read, Out of proportion bodies, freaky looking humans, over sized, rounded edges, mirrored flowing panels, ect ect ect. Say that to a hard core otaku, they'd just simply laugh in your face, before punching you in the throat. these are so damn common, youd have to be an utter novice to complain bout these things coming from a manga styled author. Not being familiar with a medium is not the issue, the issue is, Strafe, and others here, is that you utterly disrespect those that try to show you that theres a wider reality out there, then the inside of your rectal colon. Strafe, You just have your head crammed so far up the ass of the lemming in front of you, you wont bother to do some research before bashing someone. Your Just hoping the rest of the herd is going to lemming off the same cliff you are.

as for denyer...


Quote:
You've just completely sunk any remaining credibility, far as I can see.
You know denyer, its anal points like that that make me wonder if theres an otaku at the other side of your moniter. I type in a hurry, often on the fly. so I choose one incorrect word, in the midst of doing 5 different tasks, and your all over it trying to discredit me, youd make a fine politician. Maybe I should nitpick at your spelling and grammatical errors, or maybe I should just continue to be a honorable man, and give you the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:
I can't see TWW as having been as successful had the models been left to Pat. We've already seen his interpretation of some of Don's designs, and it really does serve to highlight the differences between the two.
"As successful" is the key phrase there. Dons artwork, while anime inspired, is far more mainstream then Pat. Plus, while it was being planned, written, and penciled, Pat was still at work on G1. Its a moot point though, Dons done a fabulous job.

Quote:
I don't see the hordes attracted to Dreamwave's other titles. Seems very much that Transformers is hooking a nostalgia audience... and that's in no way a bad thing. More on that after the next paragraph.
Certainly not the old school TF horde. But Warlands, Darkminds, Fate of the Blade have all been very successful. certainly not to the extent that TF's have. But DW was doing pretty well before getting the TF liscense. TF's have just helped to bring DW into the limelight long before they would have gotten there without it.
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-12-01 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 2003-12-01, 07:38 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
The Point, is the same Ive been making all along. That the division of the stance on Pat Lee, is one I saw coming from day one. Its just really unfair to label him as a bad artist just cuz the medium he employs is an alien one to most non asian readers. Ive been saying that for two bloody months now, on transfans, and here.
Okay, how bout this... considering the complaints I read, Out of proportion bodies, freaky looking humans, over sized, rounded edges, mirrored flowing panels, ect ect ect. Say that to a hard core otaku, they'd just simply laugh in your face, before punching you in the throat. these are so damn common, youd have to be an utter novice to complain bout these things coming from a manga styled author.
But transformers is not a manga comic, The art style is not a western art style and is not mainstream. It doesn't work for transformers. For some mediums stick men are great way to draw things however for a comic they don't work

Besides at the end of the day it all comes back to the original point, Pat Lee can't draw comics. Posters and Lithos yes, comics no, his panels lack any tension and action. They are also stupidly difficult to understand - the art doesn't compliment the story, It just makes it harder to understand
 
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Old 2003-12-01, 07:53 PM   #84
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You lot really take this stuff seriously don't you? I'm just hoping they find someway to please just about everyone to keep sales up and the book going 'cos theres no way in hell I can read that armarda stuff. But there we go again, back to personal preference. For Pat Lee to get where he is today, indicates he has some talent, this reminds me of the Liefeld era where just about everyone ripped him to pieces but still, when he pencilled a square, however deformed or void of perspective, enough people would say "wow".
 
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Old 2003-12-01, 07:55 PM   #85
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But transformers is not a manga comic, The art style is not a western art style and is not mainstream. It doesn't work for transformers. For some mediums stick men are great way to draw things however for a comic they don't work
Um, correct me if Im wrong, but didnt the majority of the first line of TF toys COME from a majority of japanese toylines? Havnt the TF's gotten the most consecutively respectful treatment on japanese television and comics? Isnt the Armada (legend of micron in japan) and now energon series, proof that Japan pretty much OWNZ the TF brand?

As for TF not being a manga comic, well.. consider Pat Lees style 75% manga inspired. And it matters not, even after the considerable sales drop around #4 of vol 1, Pat's still been making enough to pump out Vol 2, and for a subsequent ongoing.

Look, I respect alot of the views here, even when I disagree with them. Im happy that alot of fans will be enjoying Dons Artwork on the G1 ongoing, even though I didnt enjoy him as much as Pat, hes still the #2 TF artist DW has right now. But at the same time, i do enjoy Pats Artwork, and so do Many others, as is evidenced by the amount of critical reviews hes gotten in various toy and comic mags, and the still substantial sales of G1 with him penciling it. Would you have his fans be vexed, simply cuz you dont like him? Point Im trying to get at here... is try to accept Pats art, maybe even pick up some manga series regularly to get familiar with the style, so its not so hard to interpret. Pats fans will want him back, and his haters will want him to stay gone. Pat needs to maintain a balance to keep all the fans happy, and keep sales high so he will be back to draw more TF comics sooner or later, lets all try to be civil when he does, if not to him , then to one another when we disagree.
 
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Old 2003-12-01, 08:26 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
So, Based on this. It is with no insult, that I have to assume that alot of the confusion comes with the medium that Pat has drawn is influences from.
no. a lot of the confusion comes with pat lee not knowing how to construct a page (influences aside).

Quote:
Its interesting that some people here see a few episodes of tekkaman, sailor moon, pokemon, card captor sakura, and think they know anime. Nope, but the genre is far deeper then that.
i have watched anime. quite a bit, in fact, beyond dragonball z and the like. i am actually quite well versed in a number of anime series. i have read numerous mangas, and was well-schooled in all things asian by a friend of mine. and yet, somehow, pat lee still sucks.

Quote:
And there are alot of art styles out there that would likely confuse most of the people here. Its no insult, just a logical conclusion.
logical?

not really, being as, as far as i know, you don't know anyone here. you have no basis to build from. all you are doing is making an assumption based on one conversation. how that equals out to logical is beyond me.

Quote:
similar to the UNlogical conclusion some made that I was a TF newbie when I first started defending Pat Lee.
i don't remember anyone having ever actually referred to as a tf newbie. they may have referred to you as a newbie to the board, which, judging by your post count, is fairly accurate.

Quote:
Note how they have very few artists working for them that appeal to the average, whitebred mainstream comic reader that is weaned on X-men, Spiderman, and Batman.
"average, whitebred mainstream comic reader"?

oh, you mean the majority of comic buyers in america? the people that are going to be buying their books? good business practice, there.

"yeah, i have this idea. let's get a bunch of artists whose work maybe ten people in the continental u.s. will give a **** about, and build an entire company out of them!"

it could work....:rolleyes:

Quote:
But for the love of god, have some respect for others that do like him. Ive posted my points on why Pat Lee is a good artist, and why I like him, and why he is popular, enough times.
yeah, but you've also gone on and on about how much you know about asian styles and how much we, obviously, do not.

you have made half-baked assumptions about people you don't know, you have insulted the intelligence of everyone involved in the conversation (whether you meant to or not), you have said numerous times that noone here knows what they are talking about, and that you do so we should take your word as bible truth. all of which makes you sound like an arrogant prick.

honestly, it doesn't seem like you have any right to sit there and prattle on about respect.

Quote:
But Warlands, Darkminds, Fate of the Blade have all been very successful.
depends on your definition of successful.

if you mean that i've never seen a single issue of two of them on sale ANYWHERE, and the one that was on sale (warlands) sold maybe ten copies. if you mean that most of the people i've talked to wouldn't have even known they existed had it not been for the ads in the tf comics, and those that had actually read them said they sucked. if that is the case, then, yes, they were very successful. more successful than anything else on the shelves.

but if you are using the generally-accepted definition, than dreamwave's non-tf books have been anything but successful.
 

Last edited by Dead Man Wade; 2003-12-01 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 2003-12-01, 08:37 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
since you cant seem to see a point that is longer then a sentence, Im surprised you can see anything at all with your head so far up your ass, Im gonna say this as simply as possible

strafe, your a dick.


A classic example of "Well I can't debate the argument, so I'll insult the other guy instead".

Keep digging that hole Ishin, we're more than willing to hand you bigger and better shovels.

Its just really unfair to label him as a bad artist just cuz the medium he employs is an alien one to most non asian readers.

Proof that you don't read our posts. Absolute 100% undeniable proof that you simply are not reading what we are posting.


Not being familiar with a medium is not the issue, the issue is, Strafe, and others here, is that you utterly disrespect those that try to show you that theres a wider reality out there, then the inside of your rectal colon.

You win Ishin. I will now go and broaden my horizons. In fact I'll start by making a TF comic out of toilet paper and then when anyone complains I'll just say they don't get it and have their head up their ass.

And why stop there? I'll draw Optimus Prime using oatmeal. It'll be brilliant.

 
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Old 2003-12-01, 08:57 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by fort_max
you have made half-baked assumptions about people you don't know, you have insulted the intelligence of everyone involved in the conversation (whether you meant to or not), you have said numerous times that noone here knows what they are talking about, and that you do so we should take your word as bible truth. all of which makes you sound like an arrogant prick.

honestly, it doesn't seem like you have any right to sit there and prattle on about respect.

I've been following this argument for 2 pages (since the last time I posted) and anything I had to say has been summed up nicely by Fot Max here. Good job.

(i'll be back later to actually comment on what's-his-names "arguments" when I have some time to kill)
 

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Old 2003-12-01, 09:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
You know denyer, its anal points like that that make me wonder if theres an otaku at the other side of your moniter. I type in a hurry, often on the fly. so I choose one incorrect word, in the midst of doing 5 different tasks,
Then you're an idiot.

Yes, that's a flame, but it's a considered one and not a thoughtless post. There isn't any excuse for replying and then whinging you meant to say something different when you have the ability to start typing and come back to it later.

Given the number of other direct attacks in this topic, I should lock it now. I'm in no great rush to stop you digging a hole, though.

Your continued insistence that anime exists within an entirely separate frame of reference is bunkum. It goes no way toward explaining the confusion caused by facial expressions, the interjection of skewed perspective into narration, or even the inconsistent flow between panels. If DW were intending to bring a Japanese sequential layout to their G1 book, they would at least apply it consistently.

I should go and see what Japanese printed materials I can rustle up around the house and refresh my memory... it's occasionally useful having a linguist sibling...
 
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Old 2003-12-01, 09:16 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
it's occasionally useful having a linguist sibling...
Are they a cunning linguist ...?

*runs for over-stepping the boundries...and using up my post quota for G1 for the next 2 years*
 

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Old 2003-12-01, 09:24 PM   #91
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Default Ho Ho Ho... Merry Christmas.

Just to save everyone some time, why not just copy and paste your response to the 1000 times 'Proud_wolf' () has already posted his baseless arguement from the below topics?

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008491.html

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008482.html

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008501.html - easily the best

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008534.html

and also to of course help you all from being borderline racists...

Warning: When reading the above you may experience the following emotions, in the following order;






 
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Old 2003-12-01, 09:27 PM   #92
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Thumbs up Re: Ho Ho Ho... Merry Christmas.

Quote:
Originally posted by Best First

http://transfans2.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/008501.html - easily the best

Ahh good memories...








About sums it up perfectly.

 
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Old 2003-12-01, 09:33 PM   #93
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Owned!!


 

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Old 2003-12-01, 10:41 PM   #94
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I like it! How did you get the rounded effect? It's very abstract. Those of you who don't get it are just philistines and gaijins who don't appreciate manga for the art it is. You suck. All of you. Including you Strafe! You're a ****!

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Old 2003-12-01, 10:59 PM   #95
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you'll have to ask Impy that, he be tha nutzoid playa!
 

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Old 2003-12-01, 11:14 PM   #96
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Here's something in a similar vein...



 
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Old 2003-12-01, 11:31 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Here's something in a similar vein...




 



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Old 2003-12-02, 12:48 AM   #98
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ahhhh, so much stupidity, so little time.

Quote:
Just to save everyone some time, why not just copy and paste your response to the 1000 times 'Proud_wolf' has already posted his baseless arguement from the below topics?
Dag BF, Do you have a job or life, to actually have the time to go back, use the url, and link codes, and actually hold onto such arguments? Guess your still not gettin any from the missus huh, that you have so much fustration and bitterness. dont worry BF, those 'personal issues' of yours will be resolved someday.

Quote:
Yes, that's a flame, but it's a considered one and not a thoughtless post. There isn't any excuse for replying and then whinging you meant to say something different when you have the ability to start typing and come back to it later.
Okay jack, you got me... somewhere between actually having a job, girlfriend, life, social circle, hobbies, fitness routine, various hobbies such as singing, playing piano, school, learning japanese, I should have a full... oh 10 seconds a day to devote to making posts while Im not distracted by one occurance or another. Maybe if I was like you, with absoloutly no life or nothing like friends or affections from the fairer sex, I would have as much time as BF, and others to make extensive posts without error or misused word every now and then... maybe I should give up alot of that so I could be as large a busybody as yourself

Quote:
Given the number of other direct attacks in this topic, I should lock it now. I'm in no great rush to stop you digging a hole, though.
Oh Please, just cuz Ive been playing with kid gloves with most of the rabble, you think this is a hole, where childish cowards express thier immaturaty and spoiled, closed minded attitudes and hatred for anything that doesnt smell like the **** from thier rectal colon that they have thier head stuck up in 24/7, I think not child.

Quote:
Your continued insistence that anime exists within an entirely separate frame of reference is bunkum
Oh yes, okay then please, give me the translations, any one of you give me the translations for the following, commonly used terms, right off the top of my head. And tell me when an american animated series has had such concepts.

1: yaoi
2: yaou
3: bishonen
4: ichiban
5: hentai


I mede #5 the easiest one. I know how frail some of the egos are on here, didnt want anyone to feel bad. and considering its probably the most typical sort of manga and anime most of my detractors are familiar with.

Quote:
i have watched anime. quite a bit, in fact, beyond dragonball z and the like. i am actually quite well versed in a number of anime series. i have read numerous mangas, and was well-schooled in all things asian by a friend of mine. and yet, somehow, pat lee still sucks.
Oh yes, me have asian friend that collect it all, so me know all there is, me opinion is very brilliant.

For the love of god you assenine putz, I have a friend of mine that is a gundam finatic, I know nearly jack about the series, besides Gundam wing sucked, Mobile suit gundam Turn A gundam, stardust memory rocked. how do I know.... BECAUSE I FREAKIN OWN THE SERIES AND HAVNT BEEN SPOONFED! And I still know less then nothing bout most of the mechanics, and I have no trouble admitting it. Just cuz you have a friend thats into it, and spoonfeeds you all you know bout the medium, doesnt make you a fan, or doesnt make you knowledgable. Hes the knowledgeable one, your just riding on his coatrails.

oh yes, onto strafe. Its always funny when the comic relief tries to be serious. so this should actually be fun kids

Quote:
A classic example of "Well I can't debate the argument, so I'll insult the other guy instead".
no strafe, I debated the argument quite well, your just such a dick that you didnt bother READING it and lept straight into another assenine rant. You know, Ive kept the kid gloves on here for long enough. Anone wants to try and start a post war with someone that just makes factual points that disagree with a assenine majority, come get some. BF's pissed cuz he aint gettin any from the missus, Strafes an utter dick that tries too act like he's not sucking ass too whatever majority he can find for attention, Anyone else with no backbone, dissatisfied with real life pissed at me for ruining thier virtual vacation and actually pointing out some simple facts? I aint goin nowhere, Ill wager ten to one that BF MISSED the post I made bout anyone having any issues with me being free to message me on any of the messenger systems I own.

Quote:
Proof that you don't read our posts. Absolute 100% undeniable proof that you simply are not reading what we are posting.
Nope, Ive read your posts quite well, and Ive said that I see Monsouir Lee having so many shohen referrences, that Id be hard pressed to be able to easily absorb his art as well, without my personal preferrance. Ive acknowledged every argument Ive come accross, problem with you strafe, and alot of the fanboys on this board, is that you dont wanna lose, so you throw accusations around. You Wimp. Just admit your argument isnt as solid as you think, or is "Pat Lee sucks as a comic artist" the defining philosophy of your existance now that mom and pop told ya the truth bout santa clause, and the easter bunny? Gee, wait til this loser finds out the real truth bout Xmas, and Easter.

Thats all the time I have for now, anyone else want thier posts dissected and thier lack of respect and intellegence utterly flamed, feel free to let me know. I dont have as much free time as the majority on this board do, but Ill do what I can.

And for those who think Ive been harsh, Keep in mind I was willing to let it settle at, lets agree that well never see eye to eye on this. I made multiple posts on that... its just that some on here think vulgarity makes right... maybe on my next flame post Ill truly become harsh if this bs continues. this is not about a differring opinion, its about the lack of respect when such differrences occur.

And regarding denyers pontifications bout locking this one up, if you or anyother of the mods on this board had any sac whatsoever, this would have been locked at some of cliffjumpers earlier posts. Guess the header on here, which talks about respect was just a big disclaimer hoping people would take it seriously. About as seriously as a criminal takes a cop armed with a whistle. Cmon Denyer, maybe you should make your next warning say.... "This time Im serious" It worked for judge ito
 
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Old 2003-12-02, 12:56 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Snipped

 
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Old 2003-12-02, 01:01 AM   #100
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Maybe if I was like you, with absoloutly no life or nothing like friends or affections from the fairer sex,
"Oh, how well you know me..."
—Chandler

Can anyone here still be arsed to talk to Ishin? Has he run through every desperate warty category of flame warrior? Can our heroes save the evidence for Commissioner Gordon and put the joker down for good?

Yes, I think they can.
 
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