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Old 2004-06-27, 10:50 PM   #21
CounterPunch
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrSpengler

Death of Superman was made, what, 10-15 years ago? I read that and at least once per issue I said "what the f*ck?" Why did Supergirl turn into Gumby? Who the HELL are these people in the JLA (Maxima? Blue Beetle? Booster? the hell?)? Why does Lex look like a Scottsman and why is he dating Supergirl?
im not too big on this myself but i'll try as best i can..

the supergirl in death of superman (there have been so many, gets very confusing dont even bother working it out) was a protoplasmic (as in morphic) being known as the matrix that combined itself with part of a woman named linda danvers (i think) and became supergirl, when she is severly injured she reverts to the messed up version of what the matrix looks like.

The people in the jla are second string heroes, put together at a time when everyone else was busy i suppose (batman was sortin out the whole bane thing i think, the flash was getting over the whole barry dieing thing so these are who made up the jla at the time)

Hairy Lex Luthor was at first Lex Luthors son (lex luthor had seemingly died before supermans death) but was infact lex luthor himself merely in an engineered body (he had his mind transferred)

'The Return of Superman' is pretty good, cos i love the whole thing with Steel, Superboy, Cyborg and the Eradicator.


Some recommended stuff from me are JLA: The Nail (and its sequal on sale now another nail) The Nail deals with what the dc universe would be like if superman was not found by the kents, and therefore never became superman, its really wicked (plus you have robin and batgirl getting slaughtered!)

Kingdom Come aswell is excellent. Some batman stuff could be No Mans Land (ran for 6 volumes)

oh and i most definitely recommend JSA, its one of the best comics out right now in my opinion
 

Last edited by CounterPunch; 2004-06-27 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 2004-06-27, 11:06 PM   #22
DrSpengler
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I have all of No Man's Land. I'm a huge Batman fan (it's the only part of the DC universe I REALLY like) and have just about every worth-while TPB.

Thanks for the help. The Lex thing was odd. But hey, if I can figure out the deal with the 6 Clayfaces that shouldn't be too difficult a concept to tackle.

You say Flash was dealing with Barry's death? But didn't barry die in Crisis? I thought Crisis was done in the early 80's (I have no idea). Flash just won't let go.

The whole multiple Earth thing aside, that's one thing that makes the DC universe so damn complicated and annoying. The constant replacement of characters. There've been what, 4 human Green Lanterns, 3 Wonder Women, 3 Flashes, 2 Kid Flashes, 3 Robins (4, maybe?), 2 Wonder Girls, apparantly a boatload of Supergirls nad all sorts of other crazy sh*t. I just can't keep up. Krypto showed up in Teen Titans: a Kid's Game. I thought he died when he bit Kryptonite Man or something. Gah! I hate it!

At least there's always been ONE Batman and ONE Superman (edit: ignoring Azrael and the Red/Blue thing, of course . )
 
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Old 2004-06-27, 11:39 PM   #23
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Originally posted by CounterPunch
combined itself with part of a woman named linda danvers
That actually happened long after 'Doomsday'.

Curly-haired Luthor was simply Luthor's clone posing as his long lost son (clone's body was 'younger' that Luthor supposed to be), so he could inherit his own empire. I don't think it's odd, it's typical for a super-hero comic.
 

-Okay, the bomb's dropped. Life goes on. No amount of sulking or worrying changes that. We've got our own lives to live. In that regard, in five minutes time, I am using the autopilot on the Midnight Runner and taking it down the pub. If I go on my own, I go on my own.
-Well. Wait up, you horrible English git. While I'm around, you don't have to go anywhere on your own.
And, one by one, the others follow.
And, one by one, they begin to smile.
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Old 2004-06-27, 11:41 PM   #24
CounterPunch
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Originally posted by Ozz
That actually happened long after 'Doomsday'.

Curly-haired Luthor was simply Luthor's clone posing as his long lost son (clone's body was 'younger' that Luthor supposed to be), so he could inherit his own empire. I don't think it's odd, it's typical for a super-hero comic.
ah, knew i wasnt up on the whole supergirl thing
 
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Old 2004-06-28, 12:01 AM   #25
Nevermore
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"Gumby" Supergirl:
That's the post-Crisis Supergirl (Superman's pre-Crisis cousin died during "Crisis" and is supposed to have never existed afterwards - until two or three years ago, that is). Originally stemming from a pocket-universe (don't ask. DON'T F***ING ASK!), she travelled to our universe after the destruction of her universe. Originally consisting of "proto-plasma" and being based on the DNA of her world's (deceased) Lana Lang, she (also known as "Matrix") adopted the identity of Supergirl and was named "Mae" by the Kents. Shortly before "The Death of Superman", she fell in love with the young Lex Luthor because he reminded her of her creator (a "good" Lex Luthor from said pocket-universe).
A while after the whole "Death & return of Superman" stuff, she merged with a dying girl named Linda Daners, and things became more and more complicated.

"Scotsman" Luthor:
The old, fat corporate post-Crisis Luthor had a Kryptonite ring to keep Superman at bay, but eventually his doctors discovered that Kryptonite radiation affects humans as well, only slower than Superman. Lex developed cancer, so his hand had to be amputated, but the cancer had already infected his entire body. So he set a plan in motion that saw him "dying" in a plane crash, his brain getting transplanted into a younger, cloned body, in which he pretended to be his own son, lex Luthor II, who claimed to be determined to undo the wrondoings of his late "father".
After Superman returned from the dead, Lex suffered from a clone virus, fell into a coma, and after he could be reawakened, he stroke a deal with the devil named Neron in order to get a young, healthy body back in exchange for his soul (he only forgot to ask for his red hair back). Luthor then went on to marry the Contessa (a European business woman who had taken over LexCorp), Luthor managed to prove his "innocence" in court, the Contessa became pregnant, gave birth to a daughter named Lena, only to be hospitalized by Lex (afterwards, the whole Contessa plot got weirder and weirder - just don't ask), Lex lost his daughter to Brainiac and finally became president of the USA.

As for the title of "Crisis":
The original JLA/JSA crossover that fully introduced the "parallel Earths" concept (after the classic "Flash of two Worlds" story) was entitled "Crisis on Earth-2", to be followed by stories entitled "Crisis on Earth-3", "Earth-X" and so on... "Crisis on INFINITE Earths" was simply the culmination, the ultimate "parallel Earths" story that ended the multiverse once and for all (well... until "Hypertime", that is).
 

Looking for a complete Energon Sky Shadow (from Superion Maximus).
Offering: Binaltech Hound, Swindle, Ravage (Corvette), Skids.
Can buy in stores: Robot Heroes Tigatron/Inferno, Ricochet/Predaking.
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Old 2004-06-28, 01:54 AM   #26
Hawkeye
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Maybe I should just stick to Batman...
good idea
 

. "Hawkeye's the best! Hawkeye's got the cutest eyes! Hawkeye's got some kinda butt! I swear, Ralph, ever since that blowhard joined up, all I hear is Hawkeye, Hawkeye, Hawk...."- Green Arrow, JLA/Avengers #3.
*sig (once again) generously made by Denyer*
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Old 2004-06-28, 05:06 PM   #27
DrSpengler
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevermore
"Gumby" Supergirl:
That's the post-Crisis Supergirl (Superman's pre-Crisis cousin died during "Crisis" and is supposed to have never existed afterwards - until two or three years ago, that is). Originally stemming from a pocket-universe (don't ask. DON'T F***ING ASK!), she travelled to our universe after the destruction of her universe. Originally consisting of "proto-plasma" and being based on the DNA of her world's (deceased) Lana Lang, she (also known as "Matrix") adopted the identity of Supergirl and was named "Mae" by the Kents. Shortly before "The Death of Superman", she fell in love with the young Lex Luthor because he reminded her of her creator (a "good" Lex Luthor from said pocket-universe).
A while after the whole "Death & return of Superman" stuff, she merged with a dying girl named Linda Daners, and things became more and more complicated.

"Scotsman" Luthor:
The old, fat corporate post-Crisis Luthor had a Kryptonite ring to keep Superman at bay, but eventually his doctors discovered that Kryptonite radiation affects humans as well, only slower than Superman. Lex developed cancer, so his hand had to be amputated, but the cancer had already infected his entire body. So he set a plan in motion that saw him "dying" in a plane crash, his brain getting transplanted into a younger, cloned body, in which he pretended to be his own son, lex Luthor II, who claimed to be determined to undo the wrondoings of his late "father".
After Superman returned from the dead, Lex suffered from a clone virus, fell into a coma, and after he could be reawakened, he stroke a deal with the devil named Neron in order to get a young, healthy body back in exchange for his soul (he only forgot to ask for his red hair back). Luthor then went on to marry the Contessa (a European business woman who had taken over LexCorp), Luthor managed to prove his "innocence" in court, the Contessa became pregnant, gave birth to a daughter named Lena, only to be hospitalized by Lex (afterwards, the whole Contessa plot got weirder and weirder - just don't ask), Lex lost his daughter to Brainiac and finally became president of the USA.

As for the title of "Crisis":
The original JLA/JSA crossover that fully introduced the "parallel Earths" concept (after the classic "Flash of two Worlds" story) was entitled "Crisis on Earth-2", to be followed by stories entitled "Crisis on Earth-3", "Earth-X" and so on... "Crisis on INFINITE Earths" was simply the culmination, the ultimate "parallel Earths" story that ended the multiverse once and for all (well... until "Hypertime", that is).

 
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Old 2004-06-28, 05:27 PM   #28
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Buy Watchmen instead Spengs
 
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Old 2004-06-28, 10:29 PM   #29
Nevermore
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrSpengler
Who was Bane's father again?

(Don't feel obliged to ask, I did some research on the whole plot with all it's twists & turns a while ago )

By the way: Everything you always wanted to know about Spider-Man's "Clone Saga", but never dared to ask!
 

Looking for a complete Energon Sky Shadow (from Superion Maximus).
Offering: Binaltech Hound, Swindle, Ravage (Corvette), Skids.
Can buy in stores: Robot Heroes Tigatron/Inferno, Ricochet/Predaking.
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Old 2004-06-28, 10:33 PM   #30
DrSpengler
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevermore
Who was Bane's father again?

(Don't feel obliged to ask, I did some research on the whole plot with all it's twists & turns a while ago )

By the way: Everything you always wanted to know about Spider-Man's "Clone Saga", but never dared to ask!
I'll be reading that.

BTW, you know how Mary Jane survived that plane crash she supposedly died in? I was reading Revenge of the Green Goblin and Spidey brought that up.
 
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Old 2004-06-28, 10:43 PM   #31
CounterPunch
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im gonna read watchmen tomorrow, see what the fuss is about
 
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Old 2004-06-29, 09:49 AM   #32
Nevermore
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrSpengler
BTW, you know how Mary Jane survived that plane crash she supposedly died in? I was reading Revenge of the Green Goblin and Spidey brought that up.
Ugh. The history of the stalker, with all inconsistencies and screwups...

Basically, she was never really in that plane when it blew up. However, the resolution of that plot iwas far from satisfying, which is twice as poor as it was written by the same writer who originally came up with the story...

People blame the Clone Saga of being bad. The Clone Saga, with all its faults, was at least interesting in that you never knew what would happen next, but were eager to find out.

The Mackie/Byrne reboot was a hundred times worse. It was just boring in that you never cared for anything they came up with. All I was thinking back then was "so, which character will be stripped of 30 years of character development this time?" And when MJ "died", I didn't give a damn because a) it was written like **** b) because it was soooo clear she would return sooner or later, which was also partially implied by a)...
 

Looking for a complete Energon Sky Shadow (from Superion Maximus).
Offering: Binaltech Hound, Swindle, Ravage (Corvette), Skids.
Can buy in stores: Robot Heroes Tigatron/Inferno, Ricochet/Predaking.
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Old 2004-06-29, 11:28 PM   #33
Silly Cow
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Thanks for the link! It took some time but I finally got to read it. I missed some parts of the Clone Saga so it was nice to read what happened then. And it was in any case a very interesting read. I had no idea it was that making comics was so complicated.
 


Thanks D!
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Old 2004-06-30, 02:49 AM   #34
DrSpengler
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevermore
Ugh. The history of the stalker, with all inconsistencies and screwups...

Basically, she was never really in that plane when it blew up. However, the resolution of that plot iwas far from satisfying, which is twice as poor as it was written by the same writer who originally came up with the story...

People blame the Clone Saga of being bad. The Clone Saga, with all its faults, was at least interesting in that you never knew what would happen next, but were eager to find out.

The Mackie/Byrne reboot was a hundred times worse. It was just boring in that you never cared for anything they came up with. All I was thinking back then was "so, which character will be stripped of 30 years of character development this time?" And when MJ "died", I didn't give a damn because a) it was written like **** b) because it was soooo clear she would return sooner or later, which was also partially implied by a)...
Wow.

I'll stick with Humberto Ramos' Spider-Man TPBs. All pretty self-contained, no craziness.

Call me crazy, but that's really how I like my comics. You can just pick up the TPB or whatever, read it and leave satisfied. It's just easier that way. I hate those "Who are these people? What the hell are they talking about?"-moments. It seems, especially with Spider-Man, that no matter how much I read I never know the whole story.
 
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Old 2004-06-30, 08:32 AM   #35
Nevermore
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I don't actually mind multi-part storyarcs... the only thing I hate is a) a writer setting up a multi-part plot being forced to leave the title before finishing it, and the one who DOES finish it totally contradicts anything his precedessor wrote, or b) setting up a multi-part storyarc without having the slightest clue where you're gonna go with it.
Like, say, "the secret of the mystery man", you put in clues about him but you don't actually know who he's going to reveal himself as. I mean, if you're gonna tease the readers with clues, you should know what those blasted clues are supposed to MEAN, right? Imagine a crime story where the writer occasionally drops clues about the killer without even knowing who the killer is going to be... Bad fanfics are written like that, but I expect more from a professional writer.
 

Looking for a complete Energon Sky Shadow (from Superion Maximus).
Offering: Binaltech Hound, Swindle, Ravage (Corvette), Skids.
Can buy in stores: Robot Heroes Tigatron/Inferno, Ricochet/Predaking.
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Old 2004-10-19, 06:38 PM   #36
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Just finished reading it.

Question time!

Alright, so they all remember fighting the Anti-Monitor in the post-crisis universe, but do they all remember life when there was a multiverse? The reboots would say otherwise.

Wonder Woman got turned back into clay. Yet she's all fine and good now?

Wildcat had his legs broken and was replaced by a racial stereotype. I was reading JLA and he was back in action. DId he just recover?

Kara died, does anyone rememebr it or did she never exist?

Did the Psycho-Pirate ever show up again?

Did Green Arrow actually die and stay dead? He got disintegrated.


I'm just trying to figure out how it places into the post-crisis universe. Nevermore said that they remember fighting the Anti-Monitor yet they don't remember the multverse. Yet after the earths were reborn all the heroes seemed to remember the multiverse just fine. Did they all forget upon returning to Earth after leaving Eart 2 Superman, Alex and Earth-Prime Superboy to finsih off the Anti-Monitor? My head hurts.

Overall, it was actually pretty good. I tried not to let it confuse me and just role with it. Excellent art and a ground-breaking story.
 
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Old 2004-10-20, 04:47 AM   #37
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Hmmm...

Okay, no, they don't remember that there was a multiverse. Basically, the Anti-Monitor wanted to destroy our universe in favor of the anti-matter universe, that's the crisis as they remember it.

Wonder Woman was completely reworked post-Crisis. Perez wanted to start from scratch, this was known when they did Crisis. So Wonder Woman was not a member of the Justice League before Crisis and was therefore replaced in those stories by Black Canary.

At the time the Infinity Inc. comic was doing well and they wanted to work as many new versions of Justice Society characters into the series as they could therefore Wildcat II was created. I don't know how Ted Grant recovered.

Kara is completely forgotten as of post-Crisis continuity.

The Psycho Pirate is still around in some capacity, he's actually the only living being that actually remembers the Crisis as it actually happened and the way the world was before it.

The Green Arrow that was killed in Crisis on Infinite Earths is the golden age version or the Earth-2 GA. He now never existed in favor of the current Oliver Queen and Speedy.

As for everyone remembering things at the end of the series, that's a slip actually. See, after the series was done the various editors at DC were given liscense to start from scratch with all of the characters. However, that didn't actually take effect immediately after the series was written in most cases. So there are gaps between Crisis on Infinite Earths and the rebooting of those characters with stories that actually aren't part of the new DC continuity. Which is why Hawkman (Katar Hol) is so ****ed up now, his reboot didn't happen for a really long time and there was a whole series of stories with crossovers that then didn't happen and had to be explained.

The after effects of the crossover were exceptionally poorly planned. However, it led to some of the greatest stories ever told in comics and was a grand story as well...
 


1921\4\6-2010\1\21 Goodbye Grandma, I love you
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Old 2004-10-20, 05:05 AM   #38
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Ahhhh THANK YOU!

I read the Wonder Woman reboot, it's just that the timeline doesn't work. Superman had to go fight in the Crisis (as he remembers it) as an adult, as did Wonder Woman. But Wonder Woman got turned back into clay and her Earth 2 counterpart got to live in peace on Paradise Island. So Wonder Woman didn't make it back. So how does that work in regards to the Gods and Mortals reboot by Perez? She has her origin, she fights in the Crisis, gets turned back to clay? Or does that not actually happen?

That's the only part that's been bugging me. Superman got rebooted but he didn't need to "die" in the battle for it to happen.

Also, know of any particular comics involving the Psycho-Pirate? I really liked that guy.
 
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Old 2004-10-20, 05:10 AM   #39
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrSpengler
Maybe I should jsut stick ot Batman...
If you want an offbeat DC title which is still part of the main universe, try Hitman. Ideally, read it from the beginning (the first couple of dozen issues tend to be regarded as the best.)

Quick synopsis:

"My name's Tommy Monaghan, and I kill people for money. It's a living. Regular hitmen kill regular people. I ain't regular hitmen. I take the weird jobs . Get mugged by a cyborg? Call me. Darkseid kidnap Mom? Call me. Swamp Thingy scare your kids? Call me. Possessed by Etrigan and don't know any exorcists? Call me. Number one in a field of one. Superpowered, supernatural or just super-freakin' annoying: I do 'em all."

http://www.zianet.com/comic-booksupe...dc/hitman.html

I particularly like the tie-in issues with Final Night (#8, IIRC—there's a momentous DC event going on outside, and the Hitman cast are holed up in a bar telling stories) and the 1,000,000 event—which is even more irreverent than regular Hitman storylines. For all of the dark humour, there's a decent amount of pathos.
 
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Old 2004-10-20, 05:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrSpengler
Ahhhh THANK YOU!

So how does that work in regards to the Gods and Mortals reboot by Perez? She has her origin, she fights in the Crisis, gets turned back to clay? Or does that not actually happen?

Also, know of any particular comics involving the Psycho-Pirate? I really liked that guy.
No problem.

Basically the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman never existed. She doesn't leave Themiscrya until after Crisis on Infinite Earths which is when Perez's reboot takes place. Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman is not remembered and the Earth-2 Wonder Woman is retroactively replaced with Hyppolyta by John Byrne.

Sorry, but I don't know which comics featured the Psycho Pirate. Though there are online Comic Book Encyclopedias that you can use to search for that kind of thing. I had a couple bookmarked on my old computer but that info's lost now. A google search should be able to find them, or Yahoo, which is where I found them...
 


1921\4\6-2010\1\21 Goodbye Grandma, I love you
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