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View Poll Results: Which names should the Headmasters DVD subs use?
American names (Optimus Prime leads the Autobots, and Blaster dies) 16 66.67%
Japanese names (Convoy leads the Cybertrons, and Broadcast dies) 8 33.33%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2005-05-16, 01:54 PM   #41
Chris McFeely
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And there's no reason God Ginrai can't be Powermaster Optimus Prime.
Yeah, there is. Because Ginrai's not Optimus Prime. It's not even just a case of Japanese vs. American, as with the Headmasters (from either HM or MF), where the characters assume the role of their cross-Pacific counterparts and do not coexist with them,. Ginrai does coexist with Optimus Prime/Convoy. They can't be the same characters because they both exist in the same universe. Plus, Optimus Prime is not a human in armour. It doesn't make *sense* to change the names for the human characters in Masterforce, because they don't represent their American counterparts. Arguably, the same can be said of the Headmasters heads in "Headmasters," but their names are either identical to, or a derivative of, the original American ones in the first place.

Quote:
People see a design and think "same character", whether it's God Ginrai or Convoy. People will also bitch that Powermaster Optimus Prime is now a human, and the pretenders shrink and—
They have for years. Nip it in the bud whilst there's opportunity to put out a correct set. [/B]
So, you're advocating that the names in Masterforce remain the same as the Japanese version, yes? That's what I'm saying should be done too. Even the characters who DO have established American counterparts (Pretenders, Seacons) are quite different from them (shrinking Pretenders, Seacons are drones). I just don't agree that just because Masterforce should do it, Headmasters should too.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 02:27 PM   #42
Osku
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Edit: Heck, it seems to have taken over half an hour for this message to appear. ???

Look, I've noticed i'm in minority and I accept that the majority wants American names. I'm happy and grateful if we can get two subtitle tracks.

I don't have to pretend that the logic using American names in Headmasters and Japanese names in Masterforce is sound. You use American names now, they'll be used in Masterforce as well because "people want it that way".

Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
I've said it before - they're *totally different characters.* It *barely matters* with the Headmasters - they're still Cybertronians, and almost all their large bodies have the *same names* as America anyway.
4 of 11 have different names. I don't remember Targetmasters/Miraclemasters situation.

Quote:
And I don't even think their heads are referred to by name in the show! And even then, in both cases, the names that are differnet, bar one are all blatant derivatives from the American anyway! But in Masterforce, the Headmasters and Powermasters are utterly different - they aren't Cybertronians, and *every single one of them* has a different name! They're *unutterably* different.
Names are similar with original headmasters, but concept wise

Headmasters:
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) smaller robot from planet Master controlling a bigger non-sentient robot body

Headmasters / Headmaster juniors
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) humanoid from planet Earth controlling a non-sentient robot body

Powermasters / Godmasters
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) humanoid from planet Earth controlling a non-sentient robot body

There's not much difference with how far the concepts are from each other. Headmasters juniors is propably the closest concept with their American counterparts. Or Targetmasters/Miraclemasters.

Quote:
I mean, if it's good enough for a *Japanese book* like "Generations" lists the Headmasters as the same characters, but separates the American and Japanese incarnations of the Masterforce characters, then I think it's good enough for a DVD.
"Generations" also claims that there were 318 issues of UK comic. Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.

"Generations" listing them as same characters doesn't change the fact that in Headmasters Chromedome isn't binary bonded to a Nebulan (pink or green) humanoid.

Quote:
And this is for arguing later! Headmasters now, Masterforce when it matters!
If Metronome releases also Masterforce, the choices made now affects it as well.
 

Last edited by Osku; 2005-05-16 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 2005-05-16, 03:21 PM   #43
Prime Maximus
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I'm down the middle on this one because as much as I would love to see these japanese cartoons using names I grew up on, I know the other part of me know these are different versions of the same characters.

Its japanese so the names should stay how they used them.

I'm still on the brink of purchasing these japanese versions but wish some real voice overs were done. I'd like the original characters from the original American version TF's to do the japanese versions but I know thats wishful thinking and probably won't work out the same.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 04:24 PM   #44
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Yeah, there is. Because Ginrai's not Optimus Prime.
Convoy isn't Optimus Prime. Convoy dies in the third episode of Headmasters, in fact. He demonstrably exists in a different universe to the American show Prime.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
you're advocating that the names in Masterforce remain the same
I'm advocating the names in all cases remain as they've been for years. If I were watching German audio TF episodes, I'd expect the names in English subs to reflect the German names being said; with Japanese audio I expect names to reflect the Japanese names being said.

It's as simple as: don't "translate" proper nouns in subtitles. That's a general thing in any film or TV show.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 04:35 PM   #45
Chris McFeely
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Originally posted by Denyer
Convoy isn't Optimus Prime. Convoy dies in the third episode of Headmasters, in fact. He demonstrably exists in a different universe to the American show Prime.
I just have to disagree on this. The Japanese just changed Optimus Prime's name to their version, Convoy when they translated the English language series. Now that we're translating the Japanese series, we're changing Convoy to OUR version, Optimus Prime. There's nothing more wrong or horrific or inaccurate about what we're doing that there was in what the Japanese did in the first place. Ginrai is a *lot* different to just a case of changing a name. It's a completely different physical character.

Quote:
I'm advocating the names in all cases remain as they've been for years. If I were watching German audio TF episodes, I'd expect the names in English subs to reflect the German names being said; with Japanese audio I expect names to reflect the Japanese names being said.

It's as simple as: don't "translate" proper nouns in subtitles. That's a general thing in any film or TV show.
And it's not as if I even begrudge you that desire. I appreciate that some people want accuracy to the original Japanese. But I just can't promise you'll get it.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 04:51 PM   #46
Chris McFeely
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You use American names now, they'll be used in Masterforce as well because "people want it that way".
Well, I think we can leave that up to the people to decide at the time.
Quote:
4 of 11 have different names. I don't remember Targetmasters/Miraclemasters situation.
One of 'em's different, Blanker. And in his case (and in the case of the two of the four HM's), the names are cheap shortenings/derivatives of the American names (Wipe, Skull), which leaves me no trouble in thinking they should be given their US names. And the other two are the ones that I'm actually having *trouble* with, because I appreciate where people are coming from on this.

Quote:
Names are similar with original headmasters, but concept wise
<snip for space>
There's not much difference with how far the concepts are from each other. Headmasters juniors is propably the closest concept with their American counterparts. Or Targetmasters/Miraclemasters.
Y'know, I agree. I don't dispute the basic similarity, or the difference from the US. So, then, I can't really explain *why* I feel differently about the Masterforce characters. Perhaps it is because they have different names. Perhaps it is because they are humans, not robots. Perhaps it is because they spend most of their time as humans, whereas the Headmasters characters spend most of their combined with their larger bodies. Perhaps it is because I find the Headmasters can be happily exchanged with their American counterparts, characterwise, while the Masterforce characters cannot. But we'll just have to wait and see what people want the DVD to be like when the time comes.

Quote:
"Generations" also claims that there were 318 issues of UK comic.
Heh, well, I can't dispute that!

Quote:
Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.
Ack! Don't open up THAT can of worms for me!

Quote:
If Metronome releases also Masterforce, the choices made now affects it as well. [/B]
Honestly? I don't really think they do. If the popular opinion for Masterforce is to give everyone their Japanese names, then the intro booklet for the set will explain why this is so.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 05:05 PM   #47
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Ginrai is a *lot* different to just a case of changing a name. It's a completely different physical character.
Convoy and Prime are different physical characters—one's dead. You don't get much more physically different...

Cartoon Prime and Comic Prime are also different physical characters. Things happened to each that didn't happen to other other, something that has Big Clue written all over it.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
The Japanese just changed Optimus Prime's name to their version
They released a different series, which went on to have even fewer similarities with those released in other parts of the world. There are other changes throughout the series:

Some episodes were aired unmodified from their original American productions, while other episodes consisted of scenes from different shows mixed and matched into new stories.
http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/tf/...ese-Guide.html

Broadly speaking, they tell a very similar overall story. They are not the same series. They include different episodes. Takara licensed and rewrote. They did not just change names.

Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
I appreciate that some people want accuracy to the original Japanese. But I just can't promise you'll get it.
I'm not asking you to. I'm saying that some of the customer base will not buy something which is inaccurate, and deliberately inaccurate at that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Osku
Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.
Which is why it's rarely a good idea to write a guide to a show on the basis of its pre-production notes, without actually watching it.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 05:13 PM   #48
Chris McFeely
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Convoy and Prime are different physical characters—one's dead. You don't get much more physically different...
I just don't *see* how that makes Convoy any less Optimus Prime, just because one show took the story in another direction. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, 'cause I don't think either of us is going to change the other's opinion.

Quote:
Some episodes were aired unmodified from their original American productions, while other episodes consisted of scenes from different shows mixed and matched into new stories.
http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/tf/...ese-Guide.html
Incidentally, as I understand it, these were clips shows. But I could be wrong about that.

Quote:
I'm not asking you to. I'm saying that some of the customer base will not buy something which is inaccurate, and deliberately inaccurate at that.
Well, the only way to please both sides is to have two tracks. And unfortunately... *kicks inbox* ...I have recieved no word from Ken today on whether or not that's in the realm of possibility.

EDIT!

Correction!

I have just this minute got an e-mail. Ken says two tracks will be too costly.

However, he does think that it's a tough call between the other two options, because he knows accuracy is a good thing, but also wants to give the majority what they want.

But here's another question he's tossing out at the same time. New art is being commissioned for the set, do the fans have any preference on the artist they'd like to see doing it?
 

Last edited by Chris McFeely; 2005-05-16 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 2005-05-16, 05:27 PM   #49
Denyer
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Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures? It would be interesting to know how much those commissioning the work get stiffed for an alternate set of subs containing the exact same timing and exact same text apart from a few search-and-replace actions.

Art? Not really fussed if the likelihood is that I won't be buying. Don F would be a fan favourite, though, and could be commissioned through Devil's Due if not directly. You probably don't want a cover too much at variance with what's on the animation.
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 05:42 PM   #50
Chris McFeely
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*smacks self for always hitting EDIT when he means to click QUOTE*

Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
[B]Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures?
Heh, well, I doubt it, but I've asked. ^^;;
 
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Old 2005-05-16, 06:02 PM   #51
Osku
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris

I have just this minute got an e-mail. Ken says two tracks will be too costly.

However, he does think that it's a tough call between the other two options, because he knows accuracy is a good thing, but also wants to give the majority what they want.

But here's another question he's tossing out at the same time. New art is being commissioned for the set, do the fans have any preference on the artist they'd like to see doing it?
Disappointing.

Cover art? Animation like style? I like Guido Guidi's art, and his style might fit this set.
 
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Old 2005-05-17, 03:19 AM   #52
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Anybody but Joe Grunt.

Yes, I've badgered AOL to work. Form an orderly line to shag me.
 
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Old 2005-05-17, 09:24 AM   #53
Chris McFeely
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Sidebar - I've just confirmed that the Headmasters' heads are *not* referred to by those individual names during the animated series (Ros, Gorter, etc). So that removes one problem, right there.
 
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Old 2005-05-18, 08:03 AM   #54
Osku
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures? It would be interesting to know how much those commissioning the work get stiffed for an alternate set of subs containing the exact same timing and exact same text apart from a few search-and-replace actions.
As it seems we're not going to get answer for that. Does anyone have info of the possible cost of adding the second subtitle track?
 
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Old 2005-05-18, 01:42 PM   #55
inflatable dalek
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Am I the only one who deosn't really care what the charecters call each other as it's fairly easy to work out who's who either way?
 
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Old 2005-05-18, 02:04 PM   #56
Prime Maximus
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When we're talking about voice overs and casting for the Japenese versions of these cartoons, then give me a call because for right now, I'm undecided on any of this.
 
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Old 2005-05-18, 09:27 PM   #57
Osku
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Well, I guess Masterforce can be put to poll when the time comes. Personally speaking, I actually *would* want the Pretenders and Seacons to have their American names, being essentially the same as their American counterparts, while the Powermasters and Headmasters would retain their Japanese names, as they're squishies in armour, not Cybertronians. But that's very fiddly and picky-choosy, so if I had to pick one of the other, I'd pick Japanese names. But that's just in the case of this series (man, I'll be glad for Victroy. None of these complications...).
Just a little late thought about Victory...

You do know that there are several problematic characters there?
God Ginrai - Power Hi-Q perhaps?
Minerva

"Micromaster Rescue Squad"
Holi - Stakeout
Fire - Redhot
Border - Seawatch
Pipo - Fixit

Blacker - Gripper
Braver - Lightspeed
Laster - Flame

Black Shadow - Thunderwing (different colours though)
Blue Bacchus - Crossblades (different colours though)

And of course Dinoforce whose inner robots are same as with Monster Pretenders.
 
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Old 2005-05-19, 10:14 AM   #58
Chris McFeely
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Quote:
Originally posted by Osku
You do know that there are several problematic characters there?
The only ones there that I even consider a problem are the Micromasters, on account of them being physically identical to their Western counterparts. Everyone else you've listed was either remoulded and/or recoloured, some of them with their parts removed, and, if nothing else, are far and away visually distinct from their American counterparts that they can - in my mind, anyway - keep their Japanese names.

As for the Masterforce characters, we'll just have to see how it goes, but I *really* don't *expect* people to vote for them - or for the human characters, at least - to be given their English names when that means giving Optimus Prime's name to a human truck driver.
 

Last edited by Chris McFeely; 2005-05-19 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 2005-05-19, 12:07 PM   #59
Osku
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Note to self. Don't try to post humorous(ish) posts in English at night.
 
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Old 2005-05-19, 01:30 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris McFeely
Also, to stop Joe Average (who forms the majority of the market) from going "Who in the blue hell is this "Convoy" they're nattering on about?" when they buy the series and don't recognise any names.
EX. "Who in the blue hell" make no sense when traslated in Italian (i'm italian), so my point is opposite: name must be the original japanese names, because characters, despite identical, are not the same, while phrases must be traslated to match the sense of the original phrases.
A note: Minerva is a male character (or two, counting his robot body and headmaster component) in the US continuity, instead of a girl with a transtector, and the US char have his vehicle form as a a regular Porsche (?), while Minerva's TT had been modified for medical rescue (backseat removed and replaced).
 
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