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Old 2006-01-31, 03:44 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1
In the context of the first post those are not really classifyed as DC but companies who simply have DC as a parent company. DC are pretty much not responsible for any of those in a creative sense.
True. But then you can also say that about the big movie and music companies as well.

I was just pointing out that DC currently publishes more
non-superhero stuff than Marvel under their label.
 



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Old 2006-01-31, 09:10 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Thefallenone
MARVEL FOREVER (i read alot off there comics)

DC only good for Justice League Unlimited TV series
See, while I doubt he's being serious here, it's that kind of attitude that certain people hold in earnest that sickens me.
 
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Old 2006-01-31, 10:58 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1


I'd also say Marvel's great strength is the vast array of excellent and well developed villians. Every significant character has at least 1 classic villian. AT DC I can only say that outside of Batman's rouges gallery Lex Luthor and maybe Darksied have that "Oh nooooo" impact when they turn up or some significant personnel history with certain heros that characterise their relationship. Marvel have Doctor Doom, Magneto, Sabretooth, Bullesye, The Green Globin, Venom (In fact a huge chunk of Spidies villians gallery), Thanos, Galactus, Kang, Immortus, Loki, Juggernaut, Mr Sinister, Apocalypse, the Supreme intelligence, The Kingpin juts to name some off the top of my head.
I disagree, DC has as many threatening villains as Marvel. Black Adam, Zoom, Flash's Rogues, Mongul, Anti-Monitor, Deathstroke to name the few. I think those characters are on the same level as the ones you named.
 
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Old 2006-01-31, 11:04 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Am I right in thinking most figures of any real repute, at least of the past 30 years, have worked for both companies at various points?
I suppose, though I could make a pretty good argument that most of them have done better, more enjoyable work for DC.
 
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Old 2006-01-31, 11:29 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1
Lex Luthor and maybe Darksied have that "Oh nooooo" impact when they turn up or some significant personnel history with certain heros that characterise their relationship.
What "oh no!" factor? This is why I largely avoid cape books -- no sodding consequence; any big ticket characters get away, filed for later use.

There's only so long you can string out a nemesis, reset character ages, etc.

Re: other stuff, DC may not be creatively responsible for many of their imprints, but they do get the stuff into distribution and promote it. They're less inclined to pin their financial fortunes on a particular genre, and are actively trying to promote a bit of variety.

Quote:
Originally posted by Thefallenone
i read alot off there comics
And it shows. With apologies to our literate members who enjoy Marvel, they also attract the tits-and-spandex-with-RealAngst™ seeking kids more than most other companies.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 03:27 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Denyer
What "oh no!" factor? This is why I largely avoid cape books -- no sodding consequence; any big ticket characters get away, filed for later use.
That's really something that's starting to grate on my nerves too. Nothing ever changes the status quo. There are always a few gems of stories and you'll have writers turn even C list villains into great baddies. I think Black Mask has become the best Batman nemesis I've read about since I started collecting the series.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 01:44 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Hound
I suppose, though I could make a pretty good argument that most of them have done better, more enjoyable work for DC.
And then we're into subjective things really, aren't we? You and me could argue until we're blue in the face as to whether... erm, Watchmen is better than Jasper's Warp (it is, but any other ones took this wonderful moment to leap straight out of my mind). Both have their great talents they've unearthed, both have their writers who've done their best work at whichever. Both have their goods and bads, which is probably why the best option is bits from both.

To be honest, I'd say Marvel's villains gallery probably isn't that impressive... only Doom really has the depth to work outside of his "home" book, and he works better as a lead anti-hero, where the well-rounded character can be fully brought out. Magneto feels like a tacky terrorist away from the X-Men, Sabretooth's over-rated as a Wolverine villain, let alone on a bigger scale, etc, etc. DC are just as bad, which is why it's best to pick comic arcs out afterwards. I mean, I've only ever properly read one Kang villain story (thus discounting his excellent quasi-hero turn in Avengers Forever), which is why he's so fantastic in Busiek's Kang war arc. Ditto for Ultron Unlimited - I've never properly read the ones where Ultron 247 turns up in West Coast Avengers but is defeated when Wonderman curls one out into his eye or whatever.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 04:04 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
And then we're into subjective things really, aren't we?
Of course, but that's not a reason to just not discuss it. There's no harm in stating an opinion, having someone disagree, defending the opinion and that going on, back and forth for a while.

That's what makes this place worthwhile isn't it?

Quote:
You and me could argue until we're blue in the face as to whether... erm, Watchmen is better than Jasper's Warp (it is, but any other ones took this wonderful moment to leap straight out of my mind). Both have their great talents they've unearthed, both have their writers who've done their best work at whichever. Both have their goods and bads, which is probably why the best option is bits from both.
We could probably make a pretty good discussion out of whether Ellis' best work is his DC stuff or Marvel. Morrison too. Not Moore...

Of course most of them have done good work at both. I think only Bendis and Azzerello are the only ones not to leave their respective publishers for the competition as of yet. Hmm, I'll bet if I read 100 Bullets an argument about which writer has done the best work would be pretty good, except I've only reads Azzerello's Batman and Superman stuff which was only passable while Bendis has done some kickass work on Daredevil.
Quote:
To be honest, I'd say Marvel's villains gallery probably isn't that impressive... only Doom really has the depth to work outside of his "home" book, and he works better as a lead anti-hero, where the well-rounded character can be fully brought out. Magneto feels like a tacky terrorist away from the X-Men, Sabretooth's over-rated as a Wolverine villain, let alone on a bigger scale, etc, etc. DC are just as bad, which is why it's best to pick comic arcs out afterwards. I mean, I've only ever properly read one Kang villain story (thus discounting his excellent quasi-hero turn in Avengers Forever), which is why he's so fantastic in Busiek's Kang war arc. Ditto for Ultron Unlimited - I've never properly read the ones where Ultron 247 turns up in West Coast Avengers but is defeated when Wonderman curls one out into his eye or whatever.
Hmmm, I think Apocalypse has to work outside of just being an X-Men villain. I don't think he's at all interesting if he doesn't.

That said, I think you can judge the quality of the villains by just how well they work with the character they've been made to oppose.

Though, I think that some of the rogues galleries are way too overrated. Spider-Man's for instince. You'll notice that Straczynski has used one maybe two established villains since he got on the book and then just created the rest. That's probably the best Spider-Man stories being told and they're without all those crap villains. Someone tell me what's so great about the Vulture or the Hobgoblin, the Scorpion, the Rhino or even Venom and Carnage. When have any of those characters had a really good story told using them?

I think that both companies have a few gems as far as villains go, Magneto's a pretty good villain, so is Kingpin, Doom, Sabretooth actually works quite well even. DC has the Joker, Mirror Master, Captain Cold and Lex Luthor to name a few...

I think that DC and Marvel come out almost completely even on most things, They've both had great artists do great work on both sides. They've both got some great villains, some good ones and some completely awful. They've both got quite a few characters that genuinely interesting to read about when you've got a good writer on the book.

I think the only thing you can really distinguish the two on is where the most enjoyable stories are being told. In my mind the best stuff I'm reading at Marvel is Spider-Man, Daredevil and Exiles. I know everyone else is going to say, "What about Ultimates?" but meh. The book is alright, and it's certainly better than any Avengers stories I've read but it's not the plot that carries that book it's the way the characters are portrayed, and I really don't actually care about any of them.

Then there's DC. Planetary, Y the Last Man, Green Arrow, Teen Titans, Outsiders, Wonder Woman, Flash, Hawkman and probably a few others are all as good or better than the three Marvel books I mentioned.

Then you could consider stories that have been told. What at Marvel compete's with Sandman, Transmetropolitan, Authority, Watchmen, Swamp Thing, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Hellblazer or Preacher? Seriously, I could go on and on...
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 04:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound


That said, I think you can judge the quality of the villains by just how well they work with the character they've been made to oppose.

Though, I think that some of the rogues galleries are way too overrated. Spider-Man's for instince. You'll notice that Straczynski has used one maybe two established villains since he got on the book and then just created the rest. That's probably the best Spider-Man stories being told and they're without all those crap villains. Someone tell me what's so great about the Vulture or the Hobgoblin, the Scorpion, the Rhino or even Venom and Carnage. When have any of those characters had a really good story told using them?

I think that both companies have a few gems as far as villains go, Magneto's a pretty good villain, so is Kingpin, Doom, Sabretooth actually works quite well even. DC has the Joker, Mirror Master, Captain Cold and Lex Luthor to name a few...



Marvels strength is a huge array of great villians. Dc has significantly less. I can't think of a really great Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter villian and they are part of the big 9 of DC. Superman only has 1 really good villian and while The Flash has maybe 2 Zoom and Mirror master, Mirror Master has been crap for most of his existance.

At Marvel Bullseye has had a ton of fantastic Daredevil clashes. So has the Kingpin.

Spider-man has Kraven, Green Golbin, Doc Ock, Venom and The Lizard.
Sandman has had a lot of great character work as the villian who always wants to go straight but can't and Juggernaut is as fine a Spidey villian as he is an X-men one. Sure spidey has a number of dull villians in unique costumes but I can think of 2 great Sinister 6 stories that used them to great effect.

The X-men Have Magneto, The Brood (the 1st Brood story has to be the most underated Claremont story ever), The Shi 'ar, the Sentinals, Stryfe.

[B]
I think that DC and Marvel come out almost completely even on most things, They've both had great artists do great work on both sides. They've both got some great villains, some good ones and some completely awful. They've both got quite a few characters that genuinely interesting to read about when you've got a good writer on the book.

I



Then you could consider stories that have been told. What at Marvel compete's with Sandman, Transmetropolitan, Authority, Watchmen, Swamp Thing, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Hellblazer or Preacher? Seriously, I could go on and on...
Taking the context of the first post it's clear it's more of a Marvel universe vs DC one. Almost all of Wildstorms great work was done before DC purchased them, Vertigo for all intents and purposes is a different universe and company making Swamp Thing the main viable DCU option.
 

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Old 2006-02-01, 04:54 PM   #30
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So we're counting companies DC just happen to own then? Y'know, ones they've bought just so they can hold it over Jim Lee for whenever Batman's sales need a boost, and rip off the Authority without anyone bitching? Well then, I suppose Marvel lose by not being owned by AOL Time Warner and thus not being able to buy up other companies left, right and centre... To me, Vertigo's a genuine DC imprint. Wildstorm is just something they bought.

I haven't read many DC books, to be honest (by that, I mean books with "DC" on the cover, rather than in the small print somewhere inside). I'd like to know where "Prometheus Rising" sits in the grand scheme of Morrison's apparently ****-hot JLA run... it's good fun, with a typical Morrison "answer for everything" villain (cf. Cassandra Nova, that Quire prick), but it didn't really blow my tits off like "E is for Extinction" did (and "E is for Extinction" was that good coming off the back of something as good as "Eve of Destruction" too).

Of course, the main reason I've never read much DC is that it's quite simply never impressed me in the same way Marvel has, or other stuff. Comics generally get the same start with me - I pick up a few random issues, and they either make me want to buy more, or they don't. I tell you, unremarkable mid-1990s Marvel sure kicks the **** out of unremarkable mid-1990s DC, at any rate

I don't know where I decided to largely go with Marvel, but I do know it's because when I bought the things they just interested me more. To be honest, money's too tight for me to go and buy a £15 TPB because someone says so... That said, I do have scans of Sandman to get through. I just have lots of other things to do first.



****, that big pointless list of trades sure ****ing makes scrolling back over the topic a complete pain in the arse.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 05:17 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Hound

Sabretooth actually works quite well even.

Sabretooth is great in Wolvie's book, much less so in an X-men setting. Wolverine #90 is about as good as it gets for Wolverine v. Sabretooth.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 05:49 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1
Marvels strength is a huge array of great villians. Dc has significantly less. I can't think of a really great Wonder Woman,

(Ares, Circe, Cheetah, Dr. Psycho, read Greg Rucka's and George Perez' run)

Green Arrow,

(Dr. Light, Merlyn, read Winick's run)

Aquaman,

(Ocean Master, Triton, Posiedon, Black Manta, read Peter David's run)

Green Lantern

(Sinestro, just read GL: Rebirth)

or Martian Manhunter villian and they are part of the big 9 of DC. Superman only has 1 really good villian

(Unless you count Braniac and Mongul)

[B]and while The Flash has maybe 2 Zoom and Mirror master, Mirror Master has been crap for most of his existance.

(Waid, Morrison and Johns have all done good things with more than Mirror Master and Zoom)

At Marvel Bullseye has had a ton of fantastic Daredevil clashes. So has the Kingpin.

Spider-man has Kraven, Green Golbin, Doc Ock, Venom and The Lizard.
Sandman has had a lot of great character work as the villian who always wants to go straight but can't and Juggernaut is as fine a Spidey villian as he is an X-men one. Sure spidey has a number of dull villians in unique costumes but I can think of 2 great Sinister 6 stories that used them to great effect.

The X-men Have Magneto, The Brood (the 1st Brood story has to be the most underated Claremont story ever), The Shi 'ar, the Sentinals, Stryfe.
Stryfe?!!! Stryfe? When? When has Stryfe ever been great? For the one panel when he takes off the helmet and has the same face as Cable? Is there any other standout moments for him? X-Cutioner's Song wasn't that good. I'm not saying it was bad, but it's not great though.

I'll give you Kraven and Juggernaut because I've read the stories you're thinking about and they are good. Venom though? The Lizard? Sandman?! If you say so. The couple hundred or so Spider-Man comics I've read apparently weren't enough I guess.

You can't really deny Kingpin and Bullseye are great when you've read Miller's run on Daredevil though...

Quote:
Taking the context of the first post it's clear it's more of a Marvel universe vs DC one. Almost all of Wildstorms great work was done before DC purchased them, Vertigo for all intents and purposes is a different universe and company making Swamp Thing the main viable DCU option.
Authority and Planetary were done after DC bought Wildstorm. So was the bulk of Moore's work on ABC. If you don't want to count it, fine, but just so we're clear on the facts...

Vertigo is it's own universe? Except when characters start popping up and interacting with the regular DCU. Like Sandman did, like Kid Ertinity, like Constantine, Swamp Thing, Animal Man...

Ok though, Vertigo doesn't count either.

Everything Alan Moore did with Batman or Superman, Frank Miller's Batman stories, Hawkworld, Crisis, Perez on Wonder Woman and Teen Titans, Grell's, Dixon's, Kevin Smith's, Brad Meltzer's or Winnick's run on Green Arrow, David's run on Aquaman, Geoff John's run on JSA, Flash, Hawkman and Teen Titans, Marz' and Winick's run on Green Lantern, Waid's run on Flash and Impulse and his current run on Legion of Super-Heroes. All as good or better as anything done at Marvel.

Oh wait, almost forgot Giffen and DeMattius on JLI or Robinson on Starman...

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I tell you, unremarkable mid-1990s Marvel sure kicks the **** out of unremarkable mid-1990s DC, at any rate
Sandman was being produced by DC in the mid-90s, so was Waid's run on the Flash and Peter David's run on Aquaman and Marz run on Green Lantern and Dixon's run on Green Arrow. I'd pit these books against anything Marvel produced at the time because they are as good or better.


 
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Old 2006-02-01, 05:56 PM   #33
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I meant more the stuff I was finding in the bargain bin at the local comics shop... Pryde & Wisdom > Deathstroke the Terminator, "nobody's in it"-era Avengers > L.E.G.I.O.N '91, etc, etc.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 06:01 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I meant more the stuff I was finding in the bargain bin at the local comics shop... Pryde & Wisdom > Deathstroke the Terminator, "nobody's in it"-era Avengers > L.E.G.I.O.N '91, etc, etc.
Well see, there's all the proof I need. Marvel's best stuff in the 90s still ends up in the bargain bins. DCs ends up collected in TPBs
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 06:10 PM   #35
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Apart from that I wasn't suggesting it was Marvel's best of the era. Do try to keep up, dear boy.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 06:12 PM   #36
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****, that big pointless list of trades sure ****ing makes scrolling back over the topic a complete pain in the arse.
you're telling me, man that was a hefty read. still very good arguments put up on both sides though so it was enjoyable. I, like Cliffy, really havent read that much DC in all honesty, but this thread has got me interested in buying more of their Tpb's. I think i'll always be a Marvel kid at heart though
 



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Old 2006-02-01, 06:35 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Apart from that I wasn't suggesting it was Marvel's best of the era. Do try to keep up, dear boy.
Yeah but see, you'll find Ellis' Excalibur alongside the stuff you mentioned though and that probably is Marvel's best of that era. Maybe Waid's Captain America being the only thing that you won't find in bargain bins...
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 06:54 PM   #38
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Hmmm, Ellis' Excalibur, Marvels (and of course, Ruins), Lunatik, , Captain Marvel... of course, only a year or so later came Heroes Return, and then Busiek's Iron Man and Avengers, plus Quicksilver, then Counter-X... There's no reason why both companies would be putting out the same quality stuff at the same time, is there?

And since when has value = quality? Amazing Fantasy #15's a better comic than Cap #445 is it?
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 07:21 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Hmmm, Ellis' Excalibur, Marvels (and of course, Ruins), Lunatik, , Captain Marvel... of course, only a year or so later came Heroes Return, and then Busiek's Iron Man and Avengers, plus Quicksilver, then Counter-X... There's no reason why both companies would be putting out the same quality stuff at the same time, is there?

And since when has value = quality? Amazing Fantasy #15's a better comic than Cap #445 is it?
I never read Captain Marvel, but I thought it came out more in the late 90s. I know Heroes return was around 97, Counter X was later than that.

Quicksilver was good? I didn't bother reading it. Like how good are we talking? I have the first issue, but should I go hunt down the rest?

I never said value equaled quality. You were the one that brought up what's sitting in bargain bins not me. I just stated that some of Marvel's best comics from the mid-90s are in the bargain bins, which is not so common for DC comics. Just making an observation.

I do know that DC comics from the mid 90s such as Sandman, Flash, Green Lantern and Starman are highly regarded by critics. You can decide what that means.

I know that I enjoyed and still enjoy the stories I read from DC more than Marvel.

However, I do have a fondness for a few Marvel characters that does exceed the fondness I have for so many DC characters. I imagine I will always be a fan of several X-Men characters. No matter how badly written they've been in the past I still love Scott and Jean, Hank, Logan, Ororo, Peter, Kitty and Kurt. I love Batman, Hawkman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Kyle Rayner and Wally West too but not as much as the X-Men.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 07:29 PM   #40
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The bargain bin comment related entirely as to where I first started buying comics from...

Captain Marvel? Ran late 1995, cancelled early 1996. I'm not on about the Peter David run, I'm on about the superb, but sadly short-lived, Nicieza series. No, not the one about the black chick who tended to turn up for really bad Avengers arcs. Genis' first series.
 
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