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Old 2006-02-01, 07:37 PM   #41
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Must've missed that one. Was too busy reading Fantastic Force or something...

What about Quicksilver?
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 07:38 PM   #42
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And also when you mention Marvels we mention Kingdom Come

Marvel have produced some stellar work, especially recently, I just find im far more enticed by DCs characters. With marvels characters and books the people in them suffer so many personal events and problems that its somewhat cliched and boring now. DC however, they have the amazing ability to create brilliant Superhero stories aswell as more personal stuff (Identity Crisis)
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 07:45 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by CounterPunch
DC however, they have the amazing ability to create brilliant Superhero stories aswell as more personal stuff (Identity Crisis)
I think the more inspired stories have to do with creators having more freedom at DC.

How many times have we heard about a writer leaving a Marvel title because of some argument with the editorial staff. Morrison left pissed, Nicieza and Waid, Claremont did for a time, Lobdell got jerked around for a little while. You don't see Marvel going out on a limb creatively very often. DCs been letting writers and artists go wild at Vertigo for years...
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 07:50 PM   #44
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Yeh, Ive also just noticed something else.

I know alot of people say Wildstorm shouldnt be counted as it isnt part of DC (continuity and universe wise), but there has been alot of crossing over recently, the in continuity stuff with Mr Majestic and the current comic about Captain Atom as an example
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 08:14 PM   #45
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Oh wow, you mean only a decade or so after they took over there's been crossovers? Man, that's close, never mind that most of Wildstorm's stuff would clash massively with DC's universe.

Quicksilver? If you like the character, it's worth chasing up. It suffered a little from varying artists, and a little from one of the central premises (Pietro coping with Crystal's death in Onslaught) was pulled out from under the book's feet by Heroes Return about halfway through the run. Like I say, if you like the character, it's a fine read, maybe suffering a little from letting us know about Pietro, rather than him being the stone-cold classic aloof Peter David model. I like it, it's a fine book, and a nice bit of spotlight for such a peripheral character.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 08:16 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
****, that big pointless list of trades sure ****ing makes scrolling back over the topic a complete pain in the arse.
Welcome to page two, if you have 40 comments/page set...

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Originally posted by Hound
there's all the proof I need. Marvel's best stuff in the 90s still ends up in the bargain bins. DCs ends up collected in TPBs
Plenty of both major publishers in the chuckout boxes. And since when has popularity been an indicator of quality? People still read Batman and X-Men on the offchance either comes up with something new. Or because they placed a subscription twenty years ago and don't like to stop because completism feels good. (And it does; it's a fairly subtle psychological cage.)

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Originally posted by Hound
I imagine I will always be a fan of several X-Men characters. No matter how badly written they've been in the past I still love Scott and Jean, Hank, Logan, Ororo, Peter, Kitty and Kurt. I love Batman, Hawkman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Kyle Rayner and Wally West too but not as much as the X-Men.
By and large, DC characters are archetypes and ciphers. Marvel characters get things done to them, but the sheer volume of happenings breaks with suspension of disbelief.

Characters being fascinating says little for the quality of the actual stories, in many cases. I've read summaries of characters and quite enjoyed them, but having read the story arcs (eg, New Mutants in Asgard) they really weren't anything special when decompressed into something longer than a few sentences.
 
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Old 2006-02-01, 11:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Oh wow, you mean only a decade or so after they took over there's been crossovers? Man, that's close, never mind that most of Wildstorm's stuff would clash massively with DC's universe.

Quicksilver? If you like the character, it's worth chasing up. It suffered a little from varying artists, and a little from one of the central premises (Pietro coping with Crystal's death in Onslaught) was pulled out from under the book's feet by Heroes Return about halfway through the run. Like I say, if you like the character, it's a fine read, maybe suffering a little from letting us know about Pietro, rather than him being the stone-cold classic aloof Peter David model. I like it, it's a fine book, and a nice bit of spotlight for such a peripheral character.
What I mean is there seems to be far more in continuity cross overs happenin, I mean Ive got a JLA/WildC.A.Ts crossover thats throwaway, it doesnt fit in anywhere, but stuff thats happenin atm seems like it might pave the way for larger interaction (im not sayin combining or intense crossovers) between the two.

If this were to happen then surely Wildstorm would then be considered actively in the DC Universe (kind of)
 
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Old 2006-02-02, 01:32 PM   #48
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Yeh, but are the question was surely about the companies' output, rather than stuff that's in one universe? Becuase, if we're talking Marvel universe v DC universe, well, that's something utterly different.
 
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Old 2006-02-02, 05:18 PM   #49
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It was my understanding that we were judging Marvel Comics output vs. DC Comics output. The two companies.

DC Comics releases comics under several different imprints...
 
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Old 2006-02-02, 09:14 PM   #50
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I still think an imprint is different from a company they've bought, unless you think a Testarossa's a type of Fiat. Seriously, how much involvement to DC actually have in Wildstorm? That's a genuine question. Do they go around head-hunting writers for the label? Or do they simply let Wildstorm get on with it, basically sorting the distribution in return for the profits or somesuch? Did Head of DC (Bugs Bunny? Conny? Dr. Herman Klock?) go over to Wildstorm and say "What you want is Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch. Give them Stormwatch and let them run with it!".

If anything, the opposite is true in some cases:
http://www.sequart.com/authorityMILLAR.htm

I'll have to dig, but I read quite a few articles about how DC were always unhappy with the Authority (the pastiche of their two key characters that is Apollo and The Midnighter; the levels of violence) and heavily pushed for the castration of the title with Eye of the Storm. It might have just been conspiracy-theory nonsense, I'll have to see whether I can dig out the material. But there's enough in the above link (once you get past Darius' usual pretentious crap) to show that DC were certainly interfering in the book to a negative effect. It says to me that the Wildstorm label in particular hit the wall once DC actually started to take an interest (which coincidened with the sales figures for the Authority rocketing as Millar took over).
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 12:44 AM   #51
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It's always been my understanding that Jim Lee is more or less the head editor of Wildstorm answerable to Paul Levitz and/or whoever he's answerable to. Jim Lee runs the show, though I don't know how susceptible to the whims of everyone else he is. Lee's never really seemed the most rebelious guy to me...

I do know that the ABC label is about as autonomous from DC Comics as it was possible for them to be. No one, especially DC, has any creative control over what Moore does right now.

DC has bought many companies over the years, Fawcett, Charlton, Quality and Wildstorm. All those characters and any comics featuring them are published by DC Comics. Wildstorm titles are published by DC Comics. It is, even though it's a company they acquired, an imprint of DC Comics.

As far as any laws are concerned Authority is a DC Comic. It really doesn't get any more official than that I suppose.

A Firebird may be a Pontiac, but it's still a product of General Motors.
 


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Old 2006-02-03, 12:46 AM   #52
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Just as a hunch from the way Warner Bros has controlled (strangled, in most cases) DC's comic movies over the last couple decades, I'd say they have their dirty hands in everyone's business. That may not apply to comics ->comics as it does comics ->movies, though.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 12:52 AM   #53
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Movies are always subject to the whim of the producers and studios that finance the film. Joe Quesada doesn't have any control over Marvel's films any more than Paul Levitz gets to say what happens in DC's.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 07:33 AM   #54
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Hound makes a good point when mentioning Fawcett comics and so forth.

Also Cliffy, you mentioned creative teams in your last post

Quote:
Did Head of DC (Bugs Bunny? Conny? Dr. Herman Klock?) go over to Wildstorm and say "What you want is Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch. Give them Stormwatch and let them run with it!".
Surely thats something like what is going on now? Grant Morrison and Jim Lee (Maybe, Im not sure on him) are under exclusive contracts for DC, yet they are relaunching WildC.A.Ts under Wildstorm this year, which surely means DC have enough creative control over Wildstorm.

At what point does something stop becoming a company theyve bought and becomes an imprint?
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 02:23 PM   #55
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And that's relevant for "Are DC responsible for the Authority and Planetary" how? DC have got more involved in the aftermath of kudos and sales. Big wow.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I do know that the ABC label is about as autonomous from DC Comics as it was possible for them to be. No one, especially DC, has any creative control over what Moore does right now.
Which reinforces your claim that DC are responsible for, say, LoEG, how? They probably just had enough of the one thing Moore (and anyone else, to be honest) cares about.

To break it down, this is DC's great editorial policy, and why they produce the best comics:

1. Find man nearly universally acclaimed as the king of his trade
2. Give him trucks full of money
3. Just put out whatever he puts your way, you never know, you might get a movie out of it. Don't bother putting any effort in it.

Daring.

Quote:


A Firebird may be a Pontiac, but it's still a product of General Motors.
But how in the Hell are GM responsible for the design? They just manufacture it. DC's just a factory which makes the right designs, then?
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 02:29 PM   #56
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Have we decided that the whole argument is a concensus-implausible and vague issue and a fruitless waste of energy yet?
 

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Old 2006-02-03, 02:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brendocon
Have we decided that the whole argument is a concensus-implausible and vague issue and a fruitless waste of energy yet?
I have, especially as we're on abut the third sub-level of "What is a DC comic anyway?". I basically said so a page ago. I was going to not argue, just mock Thefallenone and go or something. I was not allowed to leave in peace.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 11:33 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Which reinforces your claim that DC are responsible for, say, LoEG, how? They probably just had enough of the one thing Moore (and anyone else, to be honest) cares about.
Ok, but what does the creative control of the parent company have to do with whether or not the company produces the comic?

No one asked, "Which set of editors is most creative?"

The question is what of the two companies produces the best comic books. DC produces Vertigo, Wildstorm and DCU comics. The comic stories I most enjoy were produced by DC Comics. I don't get why there's any conflict over this.

We could probably make an interesting go of which artist or writer makes the best comics but that wouldn't really have anything to do with any comic publisher which is the subject of this thread.
Quote:
To break it down, this is DC's great editorial policy, and why they produce the best comics:

1. Find man nearly universally acclaimed as the king of his trade
2. Give him trucks full of money
3. Just put out whatever he puts your way, you never know, you might get a movie out of it. Don't bother putting any effort in it.

Daring.
Take known talent and let them be their most creative so as to sell the most comics. You're right, that's groundbreaking. How the hell could it be that that works?
Quote:
But how in the Hell are GM responsible for the design? They just manufacture it. DC's just a factory which makes the right designs, then?
It's GMs money on the line, GM is responsible for hiring and paying the people whom do the designing and paying for the cost of manufacturing the product.

What does it matter if the people running the company are creative? They don't write comics, they pay people to write comics...
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 05:43 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I do know that the ABC label is about as autonomous from DC Comics as it was possible for them to be. No one, especially DC, has any creative control over what Moore does right now.
That's not completly true there was the infamous "Greyshirt" story
that made a reference to Ron L. Hubbard and DC execs refused to
let Moore print it even though Hubbard was mentioned in a Paradox book years earlier.

Alan Moore got even by not signing off the 15th Anniversay edition of Watchmen book and not to sign off the Watchmen toys.
 



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Old 2006-03-03, 05:46 PM   #60
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i enjoyed reading the batman ft. spiderman comics. of course, they had the most interesting villains.
 
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