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Old 2006-02-03, 09:18 PM   #21
CloudStrifer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Fun fact for the day:

Religion is not race. Race is not religion.

If people wish to critique the opinion that there is a god, or that people are holy, this is reasonable.

Violence in the name of an opinion is poor promotion for that opinion.
I never said Race = Religion. I said meant that religion should not be mocked either should a race be mocked. It was a general free speach argument not tied to this recent event.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:25 PM   #22
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Funny thing is Father Ted ripped the piss out of the Catholic Church for three series, and nobody saw fit to threaten anyone associated with it.
Ardal O'Hanlon, for example, seems to be able to travel freely without Catholics saying he won't be safe in their countries.

Odd that.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:32 PM   #23
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I just f*cked some sh*t up!

Ok, so I thought I was quoting CS in a post above but I had hit edit by mistake and ended up posting the text below over his original post (quoting the parts I was responding to) and then deleted his original. I dunno if there was a way to undo or something, but sorry to all involved for my carelessnes/incompetence.

BTW, this post of his originally appeared above Cloudstrifer's last post prior to this one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cloudstrifer
If the danes see Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) in that way let them. Just don't expect Danes to be safe in any Arab or Muslim country and thier businesses will be effected. I mean is putting a 175 people job security really what they want for a picture of what they really think.
No, Danes should not have to fear for their lives because we have a backasswards, uncivilized society out there. The people in the arabic world who are flipping out about this need to either get on the same page as the rest of the world or get shot by the US armed forces.

Quote:
Oh an before I end this. Fine you don't want to pick and chose free speach, thats fine. Don't expect me to take Germany, Austria and other European countries seriously when they try to ban the Nazi's. After all its a group of people using a switkia to signigfy a value that valuable to them, that seek to villify the Jews in the same light as Danes to Muhammad (PBUH). Hey buts its free speach right?
This is actually a fairly good point in that I don't think one can say free speech exists in the countries that censor out any Nazi imagery or references.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:39 PM   #24
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EDIT: @Cliffjumper: The difference would be that there aren't any [notable, at least] terrorist groups, who identify themselves with the Catholic Church, while there are plenty of terrorist groups, who claim to be Muslim, and they're the ones, who are making the threats. Certainly, I'd think that the average Muslim would most likely either ignore it or pray for the conversion of the individual in question.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by RID Scourge
EDIT: @Cliffjumper: The difference would be that there aren't any [notable, at least] terrorist groups, who identify themselves with the Catholic Church...
The IRA wasn't notable?
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:45 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
The IRA wasn't notable?
Oh come on, they were only blowing the **** out of the UK for fifty-ish years.

Yew mean there be a wurld fur'er away than ma pick-erp will take me?
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:48 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Oh come on, they were only blowing the **** out of the UK for fifty-ish years.

Yew mean there be a wurld fur'er away than ma pick-erp will take me?
Really, Catholicism wouldn't be a religion I'd compare to Islam and not expect people to point out a history of violence or idiocy. Granted, apart from completely overlooking priests raping children, the Catholic church isn't nearly as bad as some Islamic sects these days, but it doesn't mean their sheets are all clean either.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 09:55 PM   #28
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Not really knowing much about the IRA, I'd associate them with more with the Irish, than the Catholic Church, since it seems to be only one culture, rather than Catholics from all over the world. Also, I'd highly doubt that the Vatican would endorse such a movement. On a quick google search and skim, it looks more like political reasons than religious reasons.

Certainly, there have been things that have happened that are a mark on the Church, but associating the sins of its followers with the Church, itself is just like associating Muslims with the terrorist groups.
 

Last edited by RID Scourge; 2006-02-03 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 2006-02-03, 10:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
I said meant that religion should not be mocked either should a race be mocked.
You are equating them as things that should not be criticised. People cannot choose their race. They can progress in their opinions.

If people choose to take the position the moon is made of custard and will drown people in yellow globules if they eat pork, this is a fair point to criticise. If people choose to take the position pixies are real and say it's okay to kill people, this too is a fair point to criticise.

Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
If the danes see Prophet Muhammad (PBUM) in that way let them. Just don't expect Danes to be safe in any Arab or Muslim country
And still you insist on addressing a country of disparate individuals who do not share a single religion nor other opinions. With the inference that people should expect to be violently assaulted or killed because they happen to come from a country in which some people jeered at some other people for believing in invisible things, as a way of making the point that people would threaten and kill over those invisible things.

Well done you. You can pick up your weedkiller and sugar at Wal-Mart.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 10:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by RID Scourge
Not really knowing much about the IRA, I'd associate them with more with the Irish, than the Catholic Church, since it seems to be only one culture, rather than Catholics from all over the world. Also, I'd highly doubt that the Vatican would endorse such a movement. On a quick google search and skim, it looks more like political reasons than religious reasons.

Certainly, there have been things that have happened that are a mark on the Church, but associating the sins of its followers with the Church, itself is just like associating Muslims with the terrorist groups.
The IRA was primarily a political terrorist group. The association with Catholicism is essentially tribalism. Thanks to a quirk of history, the two communities in Northern Ireland ended up with different brands of Christianity. The native Irish stayed Catholic during the Reformation whilst the British immigrants adopted the Protestantism that became prominent in England. The fact that one side identifies itself with Catholicism and the other with Protestantism is, quite frankly, irrelevant to the key dispute - whether Northern Ireland should reunite with the Republic of Ireland, or stay part of the United Kingdom. The only contibuting religious factor is that it helps define the two "tribes" more effectively. It's worth noting that the majority of religious leaders on both sides have been working towards peace since the current bout of troubles flared up in the 70s.

As to the Mohummed cartoons, the death threats are in keeping with some of the history of Islam. I've read that Mohummed ordered some of his opponents assassinated because they wrote satirical poetry against him.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 11:24 PM   #31
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I don't know why I keep defending the Arabic veiws of boycotting Denmark. It doesn't affect me in anyway possible except to show that European Society is in its self two-faced.

These cartoons were printed to show freedom of speach and that re-printing these will show some sort of free speach line with Denmark. Really thats very interesting and all...

But don't expect me to believe that this is really about freedom of speach. If there were really freedom of speach in the European communities, with the exception of the UK since they already have a number of those parties ala BNP and the like, there would be Nazi parties up the wazoo in each European country. After all some parties in Europe see it as us vs immigration anyway, but alas for all thier braying about free speach they themselves limit it by not allowing Nazi symbols, parties and what have you inside the country.

I mean sure Austria should at least have some sort of little Pro-Adolf party running around since he was from there but no, instant ban.

I guess those who actually printed these cartoons are not there for Free Speach but to provoke and insult a religion which has happened. But I bet, If I go into Germany and make a hypothecial speach about how Adolf boy was good for Germany, I would be facing what? 10 years in Jail? Ha! I laugh at those Europeans who say its about free speach.

As for Bouncelot, please show me some proof where you actually "read" them. Until then thats nothing but a load of hookey.

Denyer, I neither implied that I would hurt Danes or anyother groups. I just paraphased it from the Dannish Embasy and government have announced.
 
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Old 2006-02-03, 11:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nevermore
I find it somewhat appalling that these people don't complain because their religious leader was depicted as a terrorost, but because he was depicted at all.

Strange priorities if you ask me.

Plus, regardless of whether you find the anger justified or not, nothing justifies the reactions. I mean, it was just one newspaper. Boycotting an entire country about it, threatening the lives of everyone from that country and even expanding the hatred to all Europeans is blowing this issue way out of proportion.
Personally I not a religious muslim at all, but my problem was indeed that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was depicted as a Terroist. From what I've heard in the news the newspaper hasn't apologized in anyway at all.

Also if it seemed like I thought violance and hatred toward Europe/Dainish was justified, I apologize. But I do think that the newspaper was intentionally trying to stir things up and I do think that Muslims have the right to feel some anger towards the newspaper.

I'd also like Bouncealot or someone else to provide a proof of his claim and from a credible source.
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 12:05 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Transfannabeel
I'd also like Bouncealot or someone else to provide a proof of his claim and from a credible source.
To be fair, all the guy said was that he'd read it somewhere. It doesn't make him an asshole, just misinformed.
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 12:09 AM   #34
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...701518,00.html

Quote:
Protesters held placards bearing slogans including "behead the one who insults the prophet" and "free speech go to hell".
And what's that?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

Quote:
In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

 

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Old 2006-02-04, 12:21 AM   #35
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Preemptively, before anyone criticizes the US media for being "afraid" of showing the drawings under the pretense that it's out of respect for Muslim beliefs...do bear in mind that we have a buttload of troops in an already hostile country. Does the US media think we need to stir that sh*t anymore? I'm thinking they don't and that's a major reason in why it's not being republished or broadcast over here.
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 12:26 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
I neither implied that I would hurt Danes or anyother groups. I just paraphased it from the Dannish Embasy and government have announced.
Quite true. Merely addressing Danish people as a whole with the continuation that they should expect to be assaulted on the basis of their nationality when travelling.

Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
If I go into Germany and make a hypothecial speach about how Adolf boy was good for Germany, I would be facing what?
It would depend on the specifics of what you said and how you said them. Given your track record, I've no doubt you'd manage to suggest Hitler was good for the country in ways other than improving the economy and job market when elected.

Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
they themselves limit it by not allowing Nazi symbols, parties and what have you inside the country
Yes, Germany doesn't allow endorsement of political parties who subscribed to killing people because of their race. How terrible.

The point, which is being skirted around, is that if negative portrayal of a political or fictionalised personality provokes violence, it brings to light a serious problem with the way many people hold that ideology.

If a group of Bush supporters surrounded a foreign embassy at gunpoint because a press in its country had referred to him as an Anti-Christ and suggested he'd eaten bacon and eggs, this too would be unreasonable. Insane, in fact.

An opinion should never be exempted from criticism on the grounds some holding it are murderers.

Now... is caricature of the prophet offensive to many Muslims? Is caricature of secular atheism as morally bereft offensive to many secular atheists? Yes. A reasonable response is disapproval and education, not violence.

edit:
Quote:
including "behead the one who insults the prophet"
Being a direct threat of violence against a specified individual or group, I'm reasonably sure that constitutes incitement to affray. Which is arrestable.
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 02:02 AM   #37
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For the signs, well I guess thats what you get when you go out of the way to insult Muslims as a religion. You get the fundies to come out of thier hidey holes and make up signs.

Why the Danish did this is still beyond me. They have a very small visibiliy of Muslims, though I am not familiar with the ethic composition of thier Muslims.

In Turkey small protests were held in three different cities. Which is normal for them to be protesting. After all thier all for the Azabization of Turks with the Arab hijab and all.

Edit:

I think they did a reasonable protest. Arla Dairy, the largest Dairy in Denmark has had it sales do down to 0, lost $480m in sales and lost 175 employees because of this. A very good reaction to the Dane's cartoons.

I hope they continue on this route agianst Germany and France as well as other countries. After all it would say alot about the spending power of the Middle East and Asia as well as they are now starting the control of the Western world economy.
 

Last edited by CloudStrifer; 2006-02-04 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 2006-02-04, 02:10 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
I think they did a reasonable protest. Arla Dairy, the largest Dairy in Denmark has had it sales do down to 0, lost $480m in sales and lost 175 employees because of this. A very good reaction to the Dane's cartoons.
I see. So, hundreds of thousands of Danes should be put out of work due to the actions of a handful of f*ckwits?

How, pray tell, is that reasonable?
 
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Old 2006-02-04, 02:19 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by fort_max
I see. So, hundreds of thousands of Danes should be put out of work due to the actions of a handful of f*ckwits?

How, pray tell, is that reasonable?
Hey you want your free speach with no limits and thats what you get. Its a byproduct of something that Danes are a little obessed about. I guess its Thier Free Speach to have a few hundred thousand Danes out of work. But hey you support free speach don't ya?

Edit:

At least its a peaceful route and not a warmongering one. After all the Danes lose only thier jobs and not thier lifes which is the best outcome right? If they lose thier lifes because of the jobs and can't afford decent living conditions and have to sell everything they own and become depressed and see death as thier only way out, well then thats just a byproduct of the Dane's Free Speach and not those who are boycotting it.
 

Last edited by CloudStrifer; 2006-02-04 at 02:23 AM.
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Old 2006-02-04, 03:47 AM   #40
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No one had a giggle over my amusing interjection?

 
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