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Old 2006-11-27, 10:52 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Hound
Wolverine had some interesting stuff though I thought was only ok. It was typical Wolverine edgey stuff but done well enough.
I don't know. I rather enjoyed it. It was Wolverine being angry and violent for a reason, as opposed to 'just because'.

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I think now if he turns out to be some clone or something and it turns out that there's no real consequence for Stark turning into a fascist I'll be really disappointed.
It's highly unlikely that they're going to do that, based on what I've seen.
 
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Old 2006-11-27, 11:10 PM   #42
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It's highly unlikely that they're going to do that, based on what I've seen.
Well if they don't it means that he's directly responsible for lots of people dying and countless dollars in damage.

That and they've been hinting in the books that I've read that someone is responsible for setting up the chain of events that led to the explosion that started the whole thing. I think that'll probably lead back to Stark too. What with their being accusations of him landing huge government contracts and all...

The point is that he'll be a bad guy at the end of this if they don't pawn it off on someone else. I don't think Marvel's got the guts to let this play out that way what with Iron Man being a major character for them.
 
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Old 2006-11-27, 11:23 PM   #43
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The point is that he'll be a bad guy at the end of this if they don't pawn it off on someone else.
I don't think so. What's more likely is some grand revelation as to why he did what he did, and everyone will be pissed off, but they won't be able to argue with the logic behind it (much like Batman in 'Tower of Babel'). He'll start the Mighty Avengers with the people that still stand behind him, and everyone will grudgingly allow that he's still a hero.

Marvel has in as much said that this is going to have far-reaching consequences, and (while I take statements like that with a grain of salt) it does certainly explain the fallout they have planned (i.e., the two teams of Avengers).
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 12:47 AM   #44
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Ijust dont like how it messes with other books I read. Captain america is my favorite comic right now and it seems like his adventures were just cut short by the goings on in civil war.

same thing for thunderbolts. they have tried to re-invigorate the thunderbolts by implementing it into civil war but its about as coherent as the dissassembled tie-ins. you could tell Fabian just wants to tell his story he's been building up against the grandmaster and he grudgingly added civil war to it.

he was still able to make it make sense but does Mark millar or anyone else bother to make sure it synchs up? nope. in the pages of Thunderbolts, Baron Zemo has gathered supercriminals so the government can concentrate on rounding up the heroes and he is simultaneously using this government supported supervillian initiative to combat the threat of the grandmaster. A very overt thunderbolts army running through the streets kicking ass

In the civil war the thunderbolts are now magically a government program designed to round up the villians so they wont cause trouble and implement them in covert missions. no baron zemo in sight. It even goes as far as to say they are covert and havent been used. I guess my copy of thunderbolt where they are running around in plain view is wrong.

The thunderbolts are an independent team of former villians seeking redemption. Now they are a rip off of the suicide squad. Venom? Green goblin? oh yeah those guys are the definition of remorse. I Understand that they are planing to re-vamp the 'bolts under Ellis and have it be suicide squad-lite but why are they letting Millar contradict the events of the teams OWN BOOK as it is ongoing? they cant be a covert team in civil war and a huge army fighting in broad daylight in the other. why didnt the editors go through the effort of synching it up better?

does joe quesada give anything Millar or Bendis writes an auto pass?
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 04:00 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Hound
Inventive ways for the good guys to win. That's what usually hooks me to a comic story. Pushing the envelope as to what these super people can do. Thinking of ways to use the powers that no writer has really thought of before. Wrap that up in a good plot and I'm hooked.
Yeh, that basically sums it up for me... he's generally not trying as hard to be radical and shocking, just sleek and impressive. Some aspects of the story are very Millar (the way just about everyone's a prick, for example), but he manages to tap into the "It's big and stupid but you ****ing love it" vibe Ellis' Authority had (and oddly, Millar's didn't). I dunno, it just amazes me he writes so well for The Ultimates, and so poorly for just about everything else.

But yeh, it's the tweaks that are brilliant.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Hawk's fingernails, and the general idea of the character being dangerous without a quiver full of tricked-out arrows. Jan having the incredibly simple idea of changing size the other way. Quicksilver running people to death


There are some bigger themes in there, like the way The Ultimates are used, and sometimes that everyone's a **** does wear you down (I always feel conflicted when Pym and Rogers have a set-to... Personally, I think Millar's set himself a bit of a challenge with Pym, having turned him into a wife-beating turd straight off the bat, and is now testing to see whether he can make him sympathetic again). But you can just let the action stuff, the razor-shap dialogue and the movie-style plots wash over if you prefer.

EDIT: Yeh, Alias does work on that ethos (well, what I've seen... Maltby's a big fan, but I only really got cranked up when she got Season 5, and haven't watched much of the preceding stuff properly), but by the end of it you're not surprised by anything, however unlikely it is.
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 04:40 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I dunno, it just amazes me he writes so well for The Ultimates, and so poorly for just about everything else.
I've always put it down to the fact that The Ultimates is a perfect fit for what he's usually does... Ultimate X-Men didn't work quite so well because they aren't pricks, and he went for big bombastic explosions over creating an air of subtle alienation... The Ultimates, on the other hand... well, most of the characters are pricks on some level even before he got his hands on them, and the whole widescreen Bruckheimer action movie is sort of the point - they're the Marvel version of The Authority. I don't think Ellis would have done it quite so well... maybe because he got it all out of his system, whereas Millar's tried rehashing the concept over and over again.

It's kinda the same rationale behind attaching Joss Whedon to Wonder Woman, rather than getting him to remake Armageddon. Horses for courses. Mark Millar and The Ultimates were basically made for each other.
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 07:27 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper


But yeh, Quesada's willingness to **** with MU characters simply for a shock-driven storyline has long left me cold, and the whole concept's really just a walking corpse by now. So then all the EDGY hip DC writers he's signed to change characters for no good reason can start their work on the Ultimate universe. This is why I spend my comics money on Lion annuals and tattered old Captain Britain comics...
The sad thing about Quesada's tenure is that he has often called the wight first move. All of the main titles have had at least utterly awesome run thanks to Quesada's infulence on attracting creators. Bendis Daredevil, MJS Amazing Spider-man, certain periods of the X-men comics, Hulk, recent Captain America's, New Avengers to a degree and even the FF. And lets not forget the Ultimates line has provided some excellence for many old characters in a fresh angle. Heck his original Marevl Knights line produced that superb Inhumans comic.

It's just when he starts interfearing too much or doing these blasted company company crossovers, altering great characters for no damn reason except to see himsef in print and shock tactics in which he f##ks up. And when Joey Q f##ks anything up, he f##ks up big.
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 08:01 PM   #48
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Yeh, that's my feeling... he doesn't know when to rest his laurels. I reckon by around 2001-02ish he had the company running beautifully, but he just couldn't leave it all tottering along and had to keep meddling... Part of the problem was the people he bought in. I mean, big names a go-go and all that, but basically you kept having creative teams coming in, tearing up the run before during their year stint, then leaving, before either another radical creative team did exactly the same, or Chuck Austen did the same. And now that so many books have alienated the readers who kept them going for decades, they have to keep on doing it, hoping each team has the built-in fanbase to keep the book going. And thus we get all these big silly events - someone explain the basic difference between Civil War and Atlantis Attacks or some other 1980s bollocks?
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jetfire
The sad thing about Quesada's tenure is that he has often called the wight first move. All of the main titles have had at least utterly awesome run thanks to Quesada's infulence on attracting creators.
I don't know that I'd give him that much credit. He, at one point, seemed to have a knack for grabbing all the really good creators but the only writers that have proven to be able to deliver consistently are Straczynski and Bendis. The rest have been rather hit and miss.

Millar is mostly a hack who's only good title is Ultimates and Joe's got Loeb following Millar.

He's managed to turn the X-Men titles mostly into a disaster through bad creative choices. Morrison seemed a fantastic move but as most have come to expect he seems to get all the really good ideas out of the way in two or three storyarcs and then the rest is just meh. Quickly followed on X-Men by Claremont of all people. Then a slew of new X-Men books that mostly suck. They relaunched Wolverine, just because. Nothing big happened to warrant it, they just did.

Hulk was at best only pretty good. Though I've not read the most recent stuff, Bruce Jones' run got no attention from most.

Pretty much the only consistently good titles you're going to find are the ones written by Bendis and JMS. Any other good writers at Marvel are doing their best work for someone else.

As far as artists go, Joe hasn't managed to corner the market. There seem to be a crap load of great artists working in comics right now and every companies got a hold of more than a few of them. Besides DC has Jim Lee. As good as everyone else is no one's better than Jim Lee.

A while back I did a thread about a list from Wizard where they ranked the top 40 stories in comics up to that point. It's an old list but you'll notice that almost all of the Marvel stories, aside 1, that made the list were done almost 20 years ago or more. With DC you've got nearly a quarter of the list being done at least during the 90s. That list might change a bit if it were done today but you're probably still going to see it dominated by titles that have no connection to this time period where Quesada is in charge at Marvel.
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:23 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
someone explain the basic difference between Civil War and Atlantis Attacks or some other 1980s bollocks?
Has there ever actually been a good and/or worthwhile one? Ever?

It feels like we only just finished House of M, which basically just undid itself making the bulk of it pointless... and much of what's happened since has revolved around gradually undoing the lasting changes that were effected.

From the reactions I've read, Civil War seems to be everybody in Marvel history acting radically out of character just to justify some big fight scenes.

Age of Apocalypse... managed to be relatively self-contained by virtue of the fact that the entire concept meant it had to be finite... but the only purpose it really served in the long run was to dump Nate Grey, Dark Beast and Holocaust into the mainstream universe... yay. Oh, and Sugarman And they managed to undermine the finality of it by reviving the notion last year with teh shocking revelation that "oh... the dimension wasn't really destroyed and all the concentration camps are museums which people WHO LIVED THROUGH IT now get shown around and given seminars on." Though I only read the Exiles tie-in, so I may have missed part of the point... unless the point was cashing in.

Onslaught was a great big sloppy mess designed for the sole purpose of outsourcing some titles. And I learn today that they've commissioned Jeph Loeb to write an anniversary mini. I mean why? Seriously - WHY?! Why Onslaught? Why Jeph Loeb? Why any of it?

Name me one good Marvel Universe-wide crossover and I'll shut up. Just one.

They've all been rubbish. Secret Wars was crap, and everything since has just been cheap publicity stunts with no actual impact because all must return to the status quo so as not to undermine the main concept. Bollocks to it.

The only thing these crossovers have given us that's had any lasting impact is - as far as I can summise - Venom and Nate Grey. And did we really need all those issues just to introduce them?

Wow... I... uhm. Yeah.
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 09:36 PM   #51
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EDIT: @ Hound (well, a reply to his post, anyone can answer I suppose... :P)

This is the thing... I'm pretty sure the past 5 years are something that's going to age incredibly badly... I mean, 1990s Marvel gets a lot of stick, but I bet it compares pretty well to the current stuff, and it's just a matter of perspective, if you get what I mean. We're too close to publication to see what a mess, say, the X-Men books are at the moment. I mean, when Uncanny And Adjectiveless started off with the Blue and Gold teams, the books still impacted on each other to some degree, whereas when Morrison was writing New X-Men, Uncanny might as well have been a DC book.

The problem with what Marvel have done to the regular MU is there's not really any going back. There's no way of just saying "**** this, let's just make the whole universe work again". Even Kurt Busiek couldn't do that now. It's all just going to have to be convoluted events that put whole sub-lines on hold once a year.

Some of his decisions have been astonishing, notably thinking Chris Claremont's a replacement for Grant Morrison. Without wanting to slate Claremont (it sort of goes without saying), it's indicative of the sort of creative team problems. Morrison takes the X-Men and uses them for something quite different than any previous team, I think it's fair to say. Chris comes in, and the book regresses to the 1980s. Not a big problem, in theory (and leaving aside Claremont's decline), but the problem is that Morrison's run still happened, and we go from humanity becoming extinct and mutant counter-culture to softball and "Da, Tovarisch". It just doesn't work.

It's happened on other books too. A writer comes in, changes character X (let's just say Geoff Johns turns Scott Lang into an inexperienced prick for no apparent reason, say), pisses off having warped every character to their writing needs with little thought as to plausibility, and the next writer comes in, and has a choice between continuing these 'new' characters, doing something new of their own, or reverting them as if the previous 12 issues didn't happen. None of those ways work, and it's an example of an editor not doing his job properly. It's a case of "Can I turn Jack of Hearts into a massive cock for no reason?"/"Well, either introduce some reason for him doing so gradually, or find an Avenger who's already a massive cock".

Tangenterrific.

@ Brend:

I'm coming up blank. Onslaught I don't mind in condensed form (the UK Essential X-Men book cut out most of the fat, and reads pretty well), though I'll fully admit it's pap with some sharp dialogue courtesy of Mark Waid... beyond that, I'm coming up blank. Secret Wars seems to get props, but I'm pretty sure it's a "because it was the first one" kind of thing. Rather than it being good. The worst ones were the Infinity * cycle, stupid stuff. I bought Infinity War a few years back for about 50p on ebay, and it's full of pointless cock-thrusting - Alpha Flight or the AWC being called up to fill out a couple of battle scenes, that type of crap.

AoA I've always regarded as an X-Men book, regardless of a couple of one-shots, and again it reads better from the core material (Ellis dialogue aside, something like X-Calibre is pretty inessential). Like the others, there was no reason for the thing to be so big...
 

Last edited by Cliffjumper; 2006-11-28 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:38 PM   #52
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Infinity Gauntlet was pretty good. Though I don't remember if there was any crossing over exactly with that one. I think it was the sequels that did the crossing over and they all sucked.
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 09:53 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
We're too close to publication to see what a mess, say, the X-Men books are at the moment.
Definitely agree with that, following my annoyance at reading the latest issue of Astonishing. As much as I love the series, I've waited ten months to get through six issues that effectively culminated with "yeah, it was what I initially thought... and everybody's whisked off before we can actually make sense of it." It might make much more sense read in bulk a year from now, but that's gonna be a ****er of a TPB break...

Quote:
I mean, when Uncanny And Adjectiveless started off with the Blue and Gold teams, the books still impacted on each other to some degree, whereas when Morrison was writing New X-Men, Uncanny might as well have been a DC book.
Wasn't Scott Lobdell treating the two 90s books as essentially one fortnightly series for a while? And when he wasn't, it at least seemed like him and Fabian Nieczsajna;A or however it's spelt were actually talking to each other... things coming out on time probably helped.

Though the fact that Chuck Austen was writing Uncanny during Morrison's run likely didn't help matters. "I'm Grant Morrison - I'm reinventing a title for the 21st Century." "I'm Chuck Austen - look: it's Northstar! And some exploding communion wafers!"

It's a good thing Astonishing's effectively standalone... I'd hate to reconcile it with the main universe considering it's been bi-monthly for the past year (and frequently late) and the arcs take place in less than a day. I mean a year to get through a day's plot? That's taking the piss even by decompressed standards.

Quote:
The problem with what Marvel have done to the regular MU is there's not really any going back. There's no way of just saying "**** this, let's just make the whole universe work again". Even Kurt Busiek couldn't do that now.
Actually... House of M could have done that. A great big reality warping spell that permeated every comic... and then at the end, a clean slate. Okay, there's little continuity with what went before, but at least you can draw a line. But no, they managed to bodge that up, didn't they.

Still, at least I've got the Ultimate universe. Despite Bendis' best efforts to undermine all future writers with that Team Up gubbins. Well, I've got it until they let Jeph Loeb near it, anyway.
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 10:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brendocon
Wasn't Scott Lobdell treating the two 90s books as essentially one fortnightly series for a while? And when he wasn't, it at least seemed like him and Fabian Nieczsajna;A or however it's spelt were actually talking to each other... things coming out on time probably helped.
Not only that, they managed to keep eight other X-series and plethora of minis in tight continuity with themselves.

And after Morrison left, X-books became connected with each other again, at least those mansion-based. Bar Astonishing, of course.
 
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Old 2006-11-28, 10:25 PM   #55
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I'm so glad that it's not just me, thinking the X-titles have gone mammaries upwards. That's one of the underlying reasons I've not gone for Civil War, that and the cost, of course - if it's amonumental f*** up, so be it, but I'll have the money to buy something more worthwhile...

Anyone for Wisdom ?
 

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Old 2006-11-28, 11:33 PM   #56
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How long is that supposed to be? From what I've seen of the first issue, the main plot seems to be wrapped up by the end of that...
 
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Old 2006-11-29, 06:21 AM   #57
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6-issue mini. I suppose each issue concentrates on different mission.
 
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Old 2006-11-29, 01:47 PM   #58
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The first is... interesting. It'd be better if it was about some random British spook, rather than Wisdom, though. About the only place he felt like Pete was when he pulls up with tight lungs in a fight...
 
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Old 2006-11-29, 09:59 PM   #59
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Oh, be fair - he was still a pr*ck and proud of it. Especially at the end....
 

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Old 2006-11-30, 09:33 AM   #60
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As good as everyone else is no one's better than Jim Lee.

John Cassaday and Ethan Van Sciver are both better. Art Adams is (was) better too.
 

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