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Old 2006-06-26, 02:05 PM   #41
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Throw much more at him and it'd just be a depressing book.
Yup. I find older Spiderman stories depressing as it is, except when the character cameos in other books... I like that the character's been allowed some development and not stuck in an awkward adolescent phase, because the "superpower = metaphor for puberty" metaphor got a bit old after the first few decades.
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 02:30 PM   #42
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If you ever do get curious enough to check out any Spidey, JMS' "Amazing" run is a good one, to be honest. In terms of super-villainy the stakes are often quite low, but Stracsynski (this is why I always write "JMS"...) has a good handle on the character, making Parker likeable and believable rather than glib. It also tends to be quite funny. Not brilliant for re-reading over and over again, but Astonishing (as in Panini's one) might be worth a check - they might be roundabout there right now. It's basically about how Spider-Man relates to Peter, May and Mary-Jane.
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 04:27 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Mmm. Whether the character (eg, Obsidian, Montoya, Maggie Sawyer) is portrayed as lip-locked with someone still doesn't mean they've been retconned. A writer doesn't have to script anything to make a character have a particular sexuality, particularly when they pre-exist.

Fine. Whatever. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 



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Old 2006-06-26, 04:34 PM   #44
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Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
Fine. Whatever. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It's as if William Gladstone were reincarnated and posting on a Transformers board...
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 06:42 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Well, Marvel has Spidey, Cap and Wolverine who will always be Marvels big names.
True but Marvel gives different characters a chance to shine. Lets break it down.

In the 60's the FF and Spidey were numebr 1. Later the Avengers took over. By the mid 80's The X-men were most popular and in the 90's dominated marvel scheduals.

In the late 80's and 90's Gambit, Cable, Punisher and Ghost Rider were briefly more popular than Cap A, Thor and any core Avengers and Daredevil has had his ups and downs since the early 80's and current day.
Wolverine is pretty much the most popular Marvel individual since he late 90's (eariler I'd say he was the most popular X-men as his comic only sold moderately well) and wasn't even around before the mids 70's. In the Infinity Gauntlet the Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock were placed to the front as it seemed appropiate. And lets not forget the Hulk has oftened been a top 'er. Probeably before the X-men films and certainly before the 90's cartoon, The Hulk was easily a bigger character than Wolverine and Ironman is currently the key character in Marvel's big crossover.

Currently Marvel appear to be slowly pushing their classic main ladies, Ms Marvel, She Hulk and Spider-Woman as bigger and bigger players. I'm sure if one starts to take off Marvel will happily fit them in with the "Elite".

Thats quite a fair amount of change to the promonance of Marvel characters over 3 decades.



Take any Marvel crossover many characters are given a chance to shine, in DC nobody is allowed to displace Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman in any major company shake up. This has become considerably more overt since the lastest JLA series.

Look at infinite Crisis. The plot basically says that the universe gets f##ked up and should be destroyed if Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman can't agree and be the bestest of friends.
That sort of mentality gives nobody else a chance to be important in the DCU.
 


Last edited by Jetfire; 2006-06-26 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 2006-06-26, 07:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
It's as if William Gladstone were reincarnated and posting on a Transformers board...
I dunno, it's kind of an attitude I'd like to cop sometimes when people are debating on stuff like this. It's comics, not a discussion on bigotry or politics. Still, I don't pull comments like that out of respect for my fellows here.
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 08:38 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
I dunno, it's kind of an attitude I'd like to cop sometimes when people are debating on stuff like this. It's comics, not a discussion on bigotry or politics. Still, I don't pull comments like that out of respect for my fellows here.
It just struck me as a particularly pointless post... if Cyberstrike hadn't wanted to get into that side of things, he didn't have to respond. It's a bit like trying to trip someone up, then acting all arsey if they swing a punch at you. If nTo had considered the topic something he hadn't want to discuss he could have ignored it - note how no-one's paid any attention to my being attacked by tennis, or my largely off-topic stream-of-thought Marvel ramblings.
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 11:32 PM   #48
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Oh, agreed, and I was thinking more about times when I feel like I have to defend an opinion (even though I really don't, stubborness you know) when the opinion isn't worth arguing about. Probably why I don't visit the Transformers sections, but that really has more to do with the fact that even though I've been keeping up with all the series, I'm getting them on the first of the month after each issue's been out so there's nothing worth me saying by that point.

Some rambling that nobody will respond to so you won't feel alone.
 
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Old 2006-06-26, 11:44 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1
True but Marvel gives different characters a chance to shine.
Oh I agree, but Marvel has less at stake than DC.

Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were the only super heroes with comics being produced in the late 40s and most of the 50s on a regular basis. The three characters have been non-stop for almost 70 years. They've been the foundation of DC Comics since before our parents were born.

Marvel doesn't really have any characters that have had to stand against a lull in the popularity of super hero comics like the big 3 at DC.

Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are iconic way beyond Wolverine and Captain America. Spider-Man is really the only character nearly as recognizable as Superman. Spidey may get messed with quite a bit but who and what he is and his look will never change permanently. Spider-Man will be Peter Parker, a regular guy with spider powers fighting common crime in New York City in the same red and blue tights when our grandchildren are reading about him.

The X-Men are right up there but they've never been as static as say the Fantastic Four. The X-Men's line-up and look have changed and evolved way too many times to count, especially lately. I don't think the X-Men will ever reach a status where it becomes a marketability risk to change their look.
 
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Old 2006-06-27, 08:09 PM   #50
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I disagree. I'd say the characters of Wolverine(Huge film francise, primary character in two successful X-men cartoons, mega selling comic and centre point of one of the biggest events in the 90's), Captain America (Referenced everywhere and the ideal american, successful 60's cartoon), and The Hulk (2 successful cartoons, Comic selling so well it survived the "Onslaught cull in the 90's) Mega successful series and TV films and huge grossing film) are all more well known than Wonder Woman who has been sidelined for other characters in both Justice league series. I'd argue Cyclops, Jean and Rogue are better know these days than Wonder Woman. People know exactly what the marvel characters are about people may have heard of Wonder Woman but beyonf being a "flawless super woman" nobody really has a idea of her actural character.

Wonder Woman may have been in constant production but she's not often been popular. In the early 70's she had to basically been given comcis firt total makeover due to virtual cancelation (The "Punisher Woman" style) and in the 80's she had to be rebooted or canceled.

Bar a 3 season series in the 70's Wonder Woman has never sold well for 4 decades and has otherwise not been a success in another medium. Lasting longer doesn't equate to being more well known.
 

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Old 2006-06-27, 08:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Oh I agree, but Marvel has less at stake than DC.

I'd disagree. DC has and can experiment more. They have been owned by Warner Brothers for decades and many of their titles don't even need to sell-thats why DC can publish so many more comics while Marvel still dominate sales.

It wouldn't hurt DC at all to try and elivate a character. Heck it might freshen things up and edventually add another marketable product.

There is no need for the "Holy " to hold down everybody else for no other reason than "Just because".
I mean creating a event that states the universe is in trouble because Clark, Bruce and Diana disagree is ridiculous. DC basically say they are mor important than a whole universe and in my opinion is the reason why other than brief periods Marvel characters have dominated sales since the 60's.

Would it really destroy Superrman to have a "better" hero pop up? In fact it might make him more intresting.
 

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Old 2006-06-27, 08:55 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jetfire 2.1
Would it really destroy Superrman to have a "better" hero pop up? In fact it might make him more intresting.
I'd argue that there really aren't better heroes than DC's big 3 in comics. There might be better stories about other characters out there but not better heroes. Though that is purely a matter of opinion.

I'm not arguing about whether or not DC is better than Marvel based upon which characters get more shelf space. I really don't care which characters Marvel or DC gives the spotlight to. I'm explaining why Marvel can get away with making massive changes to most of their best selling characters while DC really can't.

Wonder Woman is more well-known than Captain America and Wolverine. My grandparents know who Wonder Woman is, they might know who Captain America is but they've no idea who Wolverine is. My nephew doesn't even know who Cap and Wolvie are and he's nearly 7. He knows Wonder Woman, though I don't really know why... *shrugs*

Anyway, DC has given many charcters the spotlight besides the big 3. Swamp Thing was given a big push in 80s, so were the New Teen Titans. During the fifties DC's biggest sellers were westerns, cowboys and those types of characters.

DC has many characters that transcend comics, that are known to people that have never read comics. Characters that were well known and popular long before Marvel even existed. They're iconic and much more a part of American pop-culture than any Marvel character is save maybe Spider-Man.

They can't be radically changed permanently because that hurts the chance that someone random will come from off the street and start reading the comic books they star in.

Whether you believe that hurts the character or not is irrelevent, you already read comics.
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 05:23 AM   #53
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Hound, I was thinking more about your initial remarks in this thread, and I have thought of a scenario where it would be entirely fair to say you dislike a comic character without ever having read a single issue with said character.

Look at the Punisher. I can honestly say I don't like the character and probably never will even though I have read all of three pages of one of his comics. Why? His MO completely puts me off and he's a prominent enough character that I know that much about him without ever having to read his comics.

Now, that doesn't excuse me not liking the Superman character much, but that is a quality example for you.
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 11:32 AM   #54
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I'd agree that it's very difficult to even give a comic a try if you really, really don't like what it's about. I've always held the same attitude to X-Statix - I'm sure it's very clever and satirical, but the whole idea of a media super-hero team played entirely for smug laughs just doesn't appeal to me, however well done it is. Same goes for Conan - I'm not into sword and sandal, so I'm not going to enjoy Conan even if it's done by Ellis and Hitch. Thor's another one.
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 12:06 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
Look at the Punisher. I can honestly say I don't like the character and probably never will even though I have read all of three pages of one of his comics. Why? His MO completely puts me off and he's a prominent enough character that I know that much about him without ever having to read his comics.
I don't know. I think I probably feel the exact same about the character as you do. However, I really thought Lethal Weapon 2 was a pretty cool movie so maybe I would enjoy a story about a cop that really goes after the bad guys, seeks justice without regard for the law, if the story was told right.

I don't go out of my way to find a good story about the Punisher because of my preconcieved notions about him and the litlle bit of those comics I have read but I'm not about to rule out that the character could never be something I could get into.

Y'know, anything is possible and all that... *shrugs*
Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I'd agree that it's very difficult to even give a comic a try if you really, really don't like what it's about. I've always held the same attitude to X-Statix - I'm sure it's very clever and satirical, but the whole idea of a media super-hero team played entirely for smug laughs just doesn't appeal to me, however well done it is. Same goes for Conan - I'm not into sword and sandal, so I'm not going to enjoy Conan even if it's done by Ellis and Hitch. Thor's another one.
I've always been curious about X-Statix, I read that first issue of X-Force that they appear in and was so totally turned off by it that I never gave it a second chance but I do wonder if it was better than I thought it was going to be.

I don't know about Conan, I've just never given the character much thought beyond that he exists. I'm sure there is something already out there that is good, that I could enjoy. I'm just too busy reading so many other things that I haven't bothered to look for it.

As for Thor I haven't read a whole lot of him but I did read the Surtur Saga by Walt Simonson and thought it was pretty good even though I'm not that big a fan of Thor. It's not as good as I think some people say it is but I think it was pretty good. I'm not much into Norse mythology and all that so he's not a character I have any fondness for but I've enjoyed a Thor story. I don't think the character is crap. I'd read another story about Thor if I thought it was going to be really good.

I'd read anything written by Ellis and also drawn by Hitch. They could make a comic about Speedball worth reading.
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 02:15 PM   #56
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Speedball's awesome. Okay, okay, even I don't like Speedball, and I have 3 issues of Quasar. And 3 of Wonder-Man.

Ellis' Thor stuff never did much for me... I find the character works alright in The Avengers (well, good Avengers stuff...), but his solo book, as you say, has been banging on about Asgard and all that crap whenever I've given it a chance... When I was all about the Marvel I sampled all sorts of current and back issues because I found most other main Marvel titles enjoyable, and must have just been picking the wrong issues... I can't actually remember a single non-crossover issue I could stand, and someone I really respect could give a certain Thor story the most glowing recommendation, and I wouldn't bother.

X-Statix always struck me as a writer trying too hard. Seemed like a comic aimed at people who don't read comics... maybe people just make it sound really **** when they write reviews/summaries?
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 02:33 PM   #57
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I'm a sucker for a good comic story. If I hear about a story that everyone says is good enough times, eventually I'm going to get around to reading it.
 
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Old 2006-06-28, 03:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I'm a sucker for a good comic story. If I hear about a story that everyone says is good enough times, eventually I'm going to get around to reading it.
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Old 2006-06-28, 05:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
I dunno, it's kind of an attitude I'd like to cop sometimes when people are debating on stuff like this. It's comics, not a discussion on bigotry or politics. Still, I don't pull comments like that out of respect for my fellows here.

All right fine if you want my veiws on the Montoa character's sexuallty here you go:

On the cartoon show she NEVER could have been an openly lesbian character.

In the comics DC made her lesiban. Fine. Whatever.

As Cliffy pointed there is no reason to say she's gay in the show,
but there's no reason to say she's staright or bisexual in the show.
But trying to retcon the cartoon version of the character because she came out of the closet in a different contintuty annoys me.

IMO she was a minor character in the show and other than being Harvey's partner the only other thing I remeber her doing in Batman: TAS was shooting the ties out of Quinn & Ivy's getaway car with a shotgun in one episode.

If that makes her a "butch lesbian" in some people eyes that's fine.
Personally I don't see it.
What I see is character who is a cop doing her job.

The reason why posted "Fine. Whatever." was simple I felt if I contiue on I would be flamed on the grounds that I was homophobe and I'm not.
Since I was called out by you and and Cliffy asked I replied.
 



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Old 2006-06-28, 06:09 PM   #60
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Montoya isn't a lesbian, or if she is, then Two-face has a massive case of gender confusion in addition to his split personality.
 
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