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Old 2007-03-13, 08:06 PM   #21
another tf fan
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this is all very interesting but you two are ignoring the real physics in play here.

the physics of this being a drawing on paper.

transformers tales always contain some element of "yeah, right".
it makes for better story telling. like in star wars how there is always gravity everywhere and there is sound in space. it just makes the story more on a human level.

but your arguments for the scientific possibilities of this are interesting.
 
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Old 2007-03-13, 08:10 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by another tf fan
this is all very interesting but you two are ignoring the real physics in play here.
Would've gotten very boring here in the last few years without picking apart the possible mechanics...

At least TFs doesn't have an equivalent in-depth tome in the style of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

Incidentally, I have no scientific qualifications past GCSE. Which probably helps my suspension of disbelief a lot when reading science fiction, come to think about it...
 
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Old 2007-03-13, 08:20 PM   #23
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Well your arguments were better thought out than most i hear around here.

but seriously we know why transformers can do seemingly impossible acts:

SUBSPACE
 
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Old 2007-03-13, 09:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
The point is that the weapon is a fusion cannon.
Is it? I don't recall Megatron (or anyone else) saying that it is in this continuity. Could just be a big gun.

(or I need to go back and re-read Infiltration and Stormbringer)

As for the dodging. Granted, they couldn't dodge a laser, but chances are, they couldn't dodge a bullet either. They're not dodging the energy/projectile of the weapon, per se. They're dodging the aiming of said energy/projectile. So, you don't have to be faster than light...you just have to be faster than your opponent.

But, I agree with Nevermore on this...page three has to be the coolest page of Transformers comics I've ever seen. Both the writing and the art gave me goosebumps reading it! They made us wait 10+ comics to see it...but it was well worth the wait.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 10:53 AM   #25
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Going back to G1, on which Escalation is based, Megatron's cannon is always referred to as a fusion cannon. The fusion reactions occur inside the centre of the cannon, the main blast is channelled out of the barrel and down the 'force field tunnel' to the target. There is usually an emission of waste byproducts from the rear of the cannon, but this is quite weak. I'm not sure what those are but they were usually shown as being rather smoky in G1. They could be radioactive fallout.

In the mid 20th Century, people had seen the power of the atomic bomb and then the H-bomb. They thought that this power was kind of god-like: it could either be used to advance human society or destroy it. This is just the sort of power that Megatron would crave. The H-bomb is pretty hard to control but the fusion cannon is a lot more manageable in comparison

If one looks at the G1 tech specs and also Dreamwave's G1 profile books, Megatron also has the power to control black hole energy for short periods. This is in a whole different league, being much more powerful than nuclear fusion. If he can do this, then making and using a fusion cannon would be relatively simple!
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 10:59 AM   #26
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Originally posted by snavej
Going back to G1, on which Escalation is based,
Yeah, and? Doesn't mean IDW has to call it that. They probably will, but don't have too.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 11:01 AM   #27
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Modern warfare on Earth shows us that sufficient levels of offensive fighting is the key to victory in war. Those who rely on defensive strategies usually get beaten in the end because the attackers bring in more and more firepower to break the defences. Therefore, although defence is still important, it is most crucial to have offensive weapons and to use them swiftly.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 11:15 AM   #28
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I've never really understood the logic of Megs' cannon being his only weapon. If you're on a battlefield, and you're the guy everyone'll be focusing on, you'd want a weapon that'd be a little more rapid fire then a huge funking gun.

'Course, I'm not quite sure of the gun's rate of fire either, so...
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 12:55 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
If one looks at the G1 tech specs and also Dreamwave's G1 profile books, Megatron also has the power to control black hole energy for short periods.
Although IIRC he used it a grand total of once in one Marvel UK story and it almost destroyed everything in the immediate vicinity, himself included. It's shown to be a weapon of either madness or last resort.

It's referred to as a fusion cannon. Nowhere is it shown to do anything but generate explosive energy and project it. For one thing, the energy required to shape a force field would increase exponentially the further the blast travelled.

Quote:
Modern warfare on Earth shows us that sufficient levels of offensive fighting is the key to victory in war.
Yeah -- kill them before they kill you. Unfortunately humans haven't quite mastered being practically immortal metal beings that can survive being reduced to a head or chip. Though the Cybermen are trying.

Quote:
Originally posted by tahukanuva
If you're on a battlefield, and you're the guy everyone'll be focusing on, you'd want a weapon that'd be a little more rapid fire
Yup, and he's often been seen in previous continuities firing off short inconsequential bursts, which strongly goes against the radiation being deadly to everything around.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 02:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Going back to G1, on which Escalation is based, Megatron's cannon is always referred to as a fusion cannon.
Um...so? IDW's Transformers is not G1. Based on G1, yes, but it's not G1. And it sure as hell ain't DW Transformers (which specificially was the inbetween story of G1's Season 2 and the Movie).

IDW has its own continuity, and things like his cannon being a fusion cannon shouldn't be taken as a given. Not yet anyway (unless it did say somewhere in these comics that it is...then I will retract this statement)
Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Those who rely on defensive strategies usually get beaten in the end because the attackers bring in more and more firepower to break the defences. Therefore, although defence is still important, it is most crucial to have offensive weapons and to use them swiftly.
That wasn't what I was saying. I was just saying that your analysis on the destructive force on a transformer's body when trying to dodge a laser was inaccurate. You don't have to dodge the laser, you have to dodge the person shooting the laser.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 02:43 PM   #31
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To wield black hole power without destroying the entire solar system is an achievement beyond most beings' wildest dreams, so congratulations Megatron!

The H-bomb is pretty much uncontrollable but a fusion reactor is kept under tight control. The little reactor on Megatron's arm could generate small bursts of plasma, or large ones, or rapid-fire ones, or sustained ones like a flame thrower, or other varieties that everyone can have fun imagining.

I believe that Megatron could also be carrying a variety of other compact weapons. We have already seen the energon morning star, the silver sword and the pistol in the 'holster' on his hip (G1 comic, UK). What else could be secreted in that massive frame?
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 04:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Although IIRC he used it a grand total of once in one Marvel UK story and it almost destroyed everything in the immediate vicinity, himself included. It's shown to be a weapon of either madness or last resort.
Twice actually, Raiders of the Lost Titan Trade and at the end of the Prey arc.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 04:37 PM   #33
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In order to reliably dodge bullets, lasers, etc., one has to have a reliable method of doing so, such as:
- reading opponents' minds
- seeing the future
- knowing where shots are going to go by making allowance for weapon type, power, state of repair, accuracy, etc.
- knowing the attack patterns of predictable opponents, e.g. Bruticus

Consider the AK-47, which is fairly accurate in rifle mode but a lot less accurate in fully automatic mode. How can one predict the unpredictable machine gun? An AK-47 from factory A could fire differently to one produced in factory B. How does one tell them apart in the heat of battle?

Also consider opponents who are unpredictable, highly intelligent, cunning or insane, or some or all of these. They might choose many different attack patterns in a battle. Only a psychic or electronic mind reader could predict what they will decide to do next.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 07:53 PM   #34
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Quoting Brimstone:

'That wasn't what I was saying. I was just saying that your analysis on the destructive force on a transformer's body when trying to dodge a laser was inaccurate. You don't have to dodge the laser, you have to dodge the person shooting the laser.'

Imagine that an enemy is pointing a gun right at you at close range. You only notice him a few microseconds before he fires. At this point, you will be trying to dodge the shot and not the aimer. If you want to avoid damage, you have to move a metre or two before the shot hits you. If it's a bullet, you have a tiny fraction of a second. If it's a laser, you have even less time.

In order to move a metre or two in a tiny fraction of a second, you have to move at a huge speed. To avoid the laser, you might have to move at light speed. As Einstein said, the faster you travel the more energy you need to do it and the heavier you become. Travelling at light speed, or close to it, you will be supercharged with energy and will become incredibly heavy. The acceleration will kill you very effectively, whether you are human or Transformer.

Even if, by some miracle, you do survive, how will you slow down from such a speed without crashing into something and dying then?! Modern physics - sometimes useful to know about!
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 08:03 PM   #35
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I think it goes like this: Prime is cool and lucky, so he gets to take a shot in the chest and be okay. Same with Ratchet. Starscream is cool, but he is full of hubris. His coolness allows him to dodge some shots, but his hubris weakens his armour and he gets a hole in him. Blitzwing is neither cool nor lucky, so he gets horribly killed whenever someone looks in his direction.

This is powerful literary knowledge!
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 08:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Even if, by some miracle, you do survive, how will you slow down from such a speed without crashing into something and dying then?! Modern physics - sometimes useful to know about!
Useful, but in the case of giant transforming robots from another planet i think a little suspension of belief is on the cards. . .
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 08:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
If you want to avoid damage, you have to move a metre or two before the shot hits you.
Why? If it's a bullet, and it misses, then it's missed. With energy weapons you might get burned, but that wouldn't do much to a huge metal robot anyway.
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 10:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Imagine that an enemy is pointing a gun right at you at close range. You only notice him a few microseconds before he fires.
.
<snip>
.
Modern physics - sometimes useful to know about!
Oh, I'm sorry did you just change the argument of the debate and then act like a pompas jackass about it afterwards?
 
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Old 2007-03-14, 10:19 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Brimstone
Oh, I'm sorry did you just change the argument of the debate and then act like a pompas jackass about it afterwards?
No, he's been acting like a pompous jackass the entire time.

Edit: There's a chance that may have been out of line.
 

Last edited by tahukanuva; 2007-03-14 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 2007-03-15, 11:13 AM   #40
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I think that this comes down to personal taste. Some people like 'cool Transformers', some like exciting stories, some like science fiction with science AND fiction in it (or at least an attempt at both). We are deep in speculation here, way beyond human knowledge of science and technology. The one who can persuade the most others gets to shape the story.
 
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