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Old 2007-03-15, 01:25 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Modern warfare on Earth shows us that sufficient levels of offensive fighting is the key to victory in war. Those who rely on defensive strategies usually get beaten in the end because the attackers bring in more and more firepower to break the defences. Therefore, although defence is still important, it is most crucial to have offensive weapons and to use them swiftly.
I would agree with that. As my father (Vietnam veteran) once put it to me;

The goal is not to die for one's country but to make the other guy die for his.
 
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Old 2007-03-15, 02:20 PM   #42
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In a chaotic battle situation, a Transformer might be able to anticipate the attacks of a certain number of enemies but there are limits. The enemy around the next corner could be impossible to predict because all one's attention is focused on the first few dozen or few hundred attackers.
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 03:08 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
I think that this comes down to personal taste. Some people like 'cool Transformers', some like exciting stories, some like science fiction with science AND fiction in it
Well, you won't get anything resembling real science in Transformers, it falls at the first stumbling block of humaniod aliens...
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 03:19 PM   #44
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Considering all of science fiction, there have been many different varieties of force field. Some let nothing through them at all, some block out only certain specific things and the rest are inbetween. For example, large objects and dangerous things might be blocked while subtle energies and less dangerous things could be let through. Hence, a force field could be tuned to keep in a fusion cannon blast but to allow the light and other radiation to get through. Thus, a person might be spared the full blast but receive enough gamma radiation to kill him/her. The visible light alone would be enough to cause blindness, even in some Transformers.

With regard to the energy needed for the projection of a force field over many miles, this might not be as great as first thought due to the projector having a detailed understanding of quantum entanglement ('spooky action at a distance', which human scientists have recently discovered) and the ability to make use of it. This would allow energetic particles to be teleported via a higher dimension to the points where they were needed. It would be done with similar technology to that used in interstellar drives. Humans have already managed to teleport a few photons across their laboratories.
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 03:30 PM   #45
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The humanoid form is a proven success in body design for intelligent beings. Why not use it for aliens? Not all Transformers are humanoid anyway - beast modes, Ravage, Laserbeak, etc. There is great flexibility, as we know. I think that, if the situation demanded it, Transformers could convert to different forms, e.g. three legs, Jabba the Hutt, hover balls, and so forth.
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 03:42 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
The humanoid form is a proven success in body design for intelligent beings. Why not use it for aliens?
Not for aliens from a planet the size of Saturn [In the comics] or seemingly smaller than our Moon [The Cartoon, assuming there's no episode that contradicts The Ultimate Doom]. And considering we only have one species capable of spaceship building on Sol III (I won't say only one inteligent species mind, as there's at least one not even remotely humaniod race thay could make a good argument for being as smart as us if we had a clue what those chirps meant) that's hardly a good representive sample.

Aliens are going to be that- Alien. They'll be more different from us than we are from the common garden slug. And for a species with such a drastically different origin as the Formies have they won't be humanion, or Buzzardoid or even Cassettoid.
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 04:07 PM   #47
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Dalek, um, no.

I see this argument a lot 'They're ALIEN! They're DIFFERENT AND STRANGE!" ... My retort to this is 'Why'? With all the varied life and conditions on earth, is there REALLY going to be such 'unimaginable' differences with alien life forms on planets which must be reasonably Earth-like?

I'm not saying we're going to see humans at Episilon Erandi... but I think any alien life we see will more than likely be classifiable in terms that we already know.

The laws and physics and biology don't spontenously change, after all.
 
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Old 2007-03-16, 04:17 PM   #48
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Well, ignoring the fact that humanoids have been on Earth for a relatively short amount of the total time the planets been sustaining life, that it's something of a fluke we're in charge at all (thanks to that Meteor/increased volcanic activity/Adric/whatever removed the dinosaurs) and the world isn't ruled by lizzards, that most planets (assuming same size and atmosphere) that could theoretically support life won't actually be all that much like Earth anyway because our evolution depended on circumstances created by our distance from the sun (and it's a very narrow margin for the climate we need, if Mars had ever supported much life it wouldn't have been that Earth like) then the point is valid.
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 11:21 AM   #49
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My own theory on this is that Transformers have to change their body designs every x-number of years in order to keep up with the arms race. Currently, they are mainly humanoid but in future they might have to turn into a different form, perhaps with sensors and weapons that point in every direction (like a sea urchin with spikes pointing everywhere. We know that they sometimes have to down-size to save energon and become Micromasters, Minicons, Minibots, etc. Also, some of them become giants so that they can gain massive strength and defensive bulk. Some have only one eye while others have compound eyes like insects. I'm pretty sure that they all have much better senses than our own.

I would expect them to make more use of alternate dimensions but they don't seem to be doing so very much. What is stopping them? Maybe there are powerful beings living in those dimensions that keep them out most of the time. Primus and Unicron must have influence in other dimensions. No one wants to risk going up against such god beings.
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 11:44 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
We know that they sometimes have to down-size to save energon and become Micromasters, Minicons, Minibots, etc.
Well thats in other continuities, so far (correct me if i'm wrong) there's been no mention of this occurring in the IDW continuity.

Quote:
I would expect them to make more use of alternate dimensions but they don't seem to be doing so very much. What is stopping them? Maybe there are powerful beings living in those dimensions that keep them out most of the time. Primus and Unicron must have influence in other dimensions. No one wants to risk going up against such god beings.
Again as above, there has been no mention of either of these two within this new continuity, as for the lack of use of other dimensions, it could be down to Simon Furman not wanting to bog down every issue with pages detailing the exact workings of every single piece of technology/not wanting to use the use of other dimensions in his writing, he is afterall a writer and not a theoretical physicist (again correct me if i'm wrong). .
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 02:53 PM   #51
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Who wants to donate money to send Simon Furman on an advanced physics degree course?! He could do it part time so that he could continue to write Transformer stories and other fiction. I will look after the funds, none of which will be spent on the 'Snavej New Jacuzzi Appeal', honest.
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 05:18 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Who wants to donate money to send Simon Furman on an advanced physics degree course?! He could do it part time so that he could continue to write Transformer stories and other fiction. I will look after the funds, none of which will be spent on the 'Snavej New Jacuzzi Appeal', honest.
Since the only people who get worked up about advanced physics in a Transformers comic are pedantic twits, I don't think so. Maybe the money could be better training you to suspend disbelief.
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 05:27 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
Who wants to donate money to send Simon Furman on an advanced physics degree course?!
Nobody else actually seems to think a controlled fusion reaction held in arc by force fields is feasible, versus simply using fusion to generate the power for the blast...

Quote:
they might have to turn into a different form, perhaps with sensors and weapons that point in every direction
There's a very strong chance they've got them, though robot modes may favour focused sensor arrays rather than the spread field ones that would be necessary in vehicle modes. Xref: Megatron in the Joes G2 crossover.

Thankfully Furman's sticking to the NYAFU (Not Yet Another Unicron) deal in the main universe.

And alt-universes are incredibly played-out and cheapening. Along with time-travel, they're what science fiction series reach to when stuck for ideas. (Or in the case of TFUK, a quick way to reconcile increasingly divergent timelines whilst tidying the pieces away afterwards so as not to conflict too much with the US title.)
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 06:59 PM   #54
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If there is nothing to hold the fusion blast away from Megatron and his allies, then many of them will die simply by being close to the first shot. As was said in earlier posts, this would make the cannon worse than useless - a suicide device. A directed fusion weapon demands some method of protecting the users from the deadly effects. Fair enough, if force fields can't do the job, then something else has to be there instead. For instance, imagine if there is some way of 'programming' the particles in the blast so that they would all move to the target and nowhere else. When they reach a certain distance from the weapon, they would then be allowed to scatter. Don't ask me how it would be done! Let the real experts find a way. Perhaps one of the fans has an even better idea than mine on this topic.

The repeated depiction of the fusion cannon in comics, cartoons, etc. emphasises that Megatron HAS found a way to harness the nuclear forces in this way, in his own continuities. If we can't accept it, which is perfectly understandable given the current state of knowledge in the real world, then we should go back to the beginning and rewrite the stories with a more believable concept. Remember that there are rather a lot of ideas in comics and cartoons that are hard to believe for the rational skeptic. Also remember that science is moving forward quickly right now on our world, so the impossible becomes possible quite often.

With regard to science in stories - many great SF writers have worked hard to get the science right in their works and they are widely regarded as important in their literary field, so I don't see what would be wrong with introducing a little more science into Transformer stories once in a while. We the fandom would surely like to be seen as more than lowbrow, obsessed fantasists! We are bright and in touch with things, are we not? A general interest in new developments is a sign of mental alertness and openness. Of course, there is still a place for the more fantastical elements of the Transformers mythos. The primary purpose of Transformers is entertainment, after all - the original toys and stories were mainly for young children. Not many people thought that Transformers were outstanding educational toys but they did provide inspiration and open our eyes to loads of new ideas.
 
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Old 2007-03-19, 08:16 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by snavej
If there is nothing to hold the fusion blast away from Megatron and his allies
The arc of the blast isn't a fusion reaction. A smaller shielded reaction inside the weapon provides energy for a shot.

There's no evidence to the contrary except a fixation on the name "fusion cannon".

Quote:
I don't see what would be wrong with introducing a little more science into Transformer stories once in a while. We the fandom would surely like to be seen as more than lowbrow, obsessed fantasists!
Yes, this is why we're saying no current science supports it, and the odds of any future science supporting it are incredibly low because we have a fairly good understanding of what "exponential" means.
 
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Old 2007-03-20, 10:56 AM   #56
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I thought an arc was a curve. Megatron's cannon fires in straight line bursts.
 
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Old 2007-03-20, 11:04 AM   #57
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Another fascinating topic - G1 Track's black light pistol, how does that work? (Joke.)
 
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Old 2007-03-20, 02:28 PM   #58
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Even Tracks' black light gun couldn't save your non arguments from Denyer's common sense.
 
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Old 2007-03-20, 04:30 PM   #59
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Which non arguments would those be?
 
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Old 2007-03-20, 05:08 PM   #60
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Well, going in lengths on about Megatron's "fusion cannon" and it's supposed physical capabilities when,
a.) TF fiction hasn't been all that consistent over the years,
b.) Marvel-verse profiles don't neccesarely apply to IDW-verse TFs.
c.) TF never really bothered with physical accuracy.

Supose that TF would become more consistent and that Megatron truely had a "fusion cannon" and the ability "to tap into the power of a black hole." Then you'd have a character which is litterally a god.

Robots that transform and posses weapons that are seemingly no more powerful than current bombs and tank cannon shells and can be damaged/destroyed by such munitions would be totally helpless against a force that's able to drawn upon a great many times more than the entire Earth's nuclear arsenal.

Megatron would have more power than Unicron ever displayed in the comics and cartoon.

That alone makes the dodgy "fusion cannon" and "black hole tapping" explanations rather moot to begin with.

Balance of power (Humans/Autobots/Decepticons) is more important than physical (non) accuracy, because that's important for storytelling purposes.
Furthermore, if the TFs should be subject to physical accuracy, then the physical accuracy should be subject to power balancing.
In that case, about 90% of the technical abilities inside the Marvel profiles can be discarded, because they,
a.) skew the balance between the individual TFs too much.
b.) make little to no sense from a science point of view.

Therefore, simply for storytelling purposes the current Marvel profiles shouldn't be regarded as canonical material to the letter, because it sets you up for plotholes to the n-th degree if followed religously.

So it's wise to take them with a grain of salt. A handful at that.

Edit:
Having said that, I'm also not too happy about the inconsistency between weapon power and armoring as seen in IDW TF.
Roller blasting Blitzwing to pulp, when Ratchet can take a shot in the chest, irks me.
Prime (& Roller) and Megatron are IMHO too invincable compared to 'normal' TFs.
I it puts me out of the story to see them being on a different level while they look similar to other TFs, implying similar damage dealing and taking potential.
It's okay for them to be better than others, like an F-22 can beat an Su-27, but as it stands it's like Yak-3s vs. F-22s...
 

Last edited by T.V.; 2007-03-20 at 05:28 PM.
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