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Old 2007-10-10, 08:23 AM   #1
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No, but I can make a pretty convincing case for why Leo Prime isn't a G1 character...
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 08:30 AM   #2
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Halfshell is correct. Leo Prime is not a G1 character. Technically, Leo Convoy was though since Beast Wars as a whole is suppoded to link directly to G1. Secondly, remember, While the term "Convoy" may denote a Leadership role in Cybertronian society in the Japanese series, the designation "Prime" only applies to those who carry, or have carried the Matrix and been transformed by it into a "Prime". Thus, not all "Convoys" are Primes. To my knbowledge (which, as far as japanese series goes, is rather limited), Leo Convoy wasn't a Matrix bearer. Anyone with more BW II/BW Neo knowledge please correct me if I am wrong on this matter.

Also, technically, the name "Fireflight was also poorly chosen because that is the name of one of the Aerialbots. A better and more fitting variation on Powerglide's name would have been "Powerdive"
 

Last edited by Tramp; 2007-10-10 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 2007-10-10, 08:39 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Technically, Leo Convoy was though since Beast Wars as a whole is suppoded to link directly to G1.
Ehhhh... uhm. Tricky. Problem is, "G1" is essentially a fan-made term that relates to anything created prior to "Generation 2". BW (and all its subsets) doesn't really fall under that banner.

"Generation One" has been used by Takara to promote a host of retro merch (SCFs, etc), though... so the only stuff that's officially G1 is whatever they say it is. Nothing BW so far, for pretty obvious reasons.

The link from the "G1" universe to Lio Convoy himself is slightly tenuous, but acceptable. Especially if working on the premise that BW Convoy is the same character as the G1 version. But if we're going to class Lio Convoy as G1able due to the events in the BW cartoon and the BWII Movie, then Spinister is an Armada character and Armada is part of the G1 continuity, too.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 08:46 AM   #4
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I don't see how you follow that logic. How can Leo Convoy being in the G1 universe like the rest of BW, be the same as Spinister being an Armada character. He isn't. Armada is set in a completely different reality from G1, whereas, at least in the US, and I believe in Japan as well, the entire Beast Wars saga is set in the G1 universe, just 300 years in the future.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 08:51 AM   #5
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BW is set in a G1 universe (there are several, remember - comic, cartoon, DW, IDW). The link exists in crossover of characters within the fiction.

Armada had a crossover of characters within the fiction as well (Worlds Collide storyline - Spinister, Galvatron, Scourge, Bludgeon, Dirge, Unicron). If the Unicron from Armada is the same as the one from the G1 comics (as has, I believe, been pretty much established), then it ties it all together.

This is another reason why "G1" is a silly term. I'm not adhering to any strict view here, just playing devil's advocate.

On a tangentially related note (primarily cross-dimensional character interaction), there was a Lio Convoy toy in Robot Masters, wasn't there?

[EDIT] Spinister counts as an Armada character in the exact same way RoD Galvatron counts as a G1 character, from a fiction perspective. The BW characters only count as G1 from a fiction perspective. Well, unless we bring the tech specs from the initial wave into it... ack. Head hurt.
 


Last edited by Halfshell; 2007-10-10 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:01 AM   #6
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More than Meets the Eye #8 states that only those Transformers who are specially attuned to the Matrix will be transformed into one of the Super-powered Primes. It says on page 3:
Quote:
Although guided by the council of ancients,, actual leadership of the Autobots (and intristically, Cybertron) was generally held by one hand-picked being. This Autobot would be given the Matrix of Leadership and, in the case of those attuned to it, become one of the super-powered Primes. These Autobots have traditionally been the wisest and most respected members of Cybertronian society, and their generally benevolent reigns last until they are somehow deactivated or leave for parts unknown. Known Primes include: Alpha Rime, Guardian Prime, Sentinel Prime, Optimus Prime, Rodimus Prime

 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:05 AM   #7
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Ah, Dreamwave continuity, how I've missed you.

Can't really be applied to anything beyond DW though, really. The cartoon establishes that Optimus Prime was called that and looked like that prior to obtaining the Matrix (unless Alpha Trion whacked it in his chest off-screen in War Dawn).
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 09:06 AM   #8
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Now I see where you're getting that from. Here is the problem with that logic though. Remember, both Primus and Unicron are multiversal beings. Primus exists simultaneously in all universes and realities at once, while Unicron travels from reality to reality. He has also been known to draw characters from different realities together as he did in the Universe story line. This is what he did in the Armada comic book too. He took several characters from a G1 reality and pulled them into the Armada reality. Thus, the only tie there is, is the connection of all of these realities through the multiverse.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:14 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
Ah, Dreamwave continuity, how I've missed you.

Can't really be applied to anything beyond DW though, really. The cartoon establishes that Optimus Prime was called that and looked like that prior to obtaining the Matrix (unless Alpha Trion whacked it in his chest off-screen in War Dawn).
Alpha Trion did give him the Matrix as he repaired him, thus transforming Orion Pax into Optimus Prime in that reality. Alpha Trion was a Matrix bearer, though he never became a Prime. He simply held it in trust until someone "worthy" arose. Also, while the specifics of Prime's origins vary from reality to reality, the Matrix, like Primus, Unicron, and the Original 13 are constants throughout the multiverse and follow the same laws in all realities.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:22 AM   #10
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's my point, though. BW is set in a G1 universe. BWII (and Lio Convoy with it) is set in the JBW universe, which is part of another G1 universe. Unicron from yet another G1 universe is part of the Armada continuity, along with assorted G1 characters who could be from any one of the aforementioned universes, or from countless others.

And to tie it in to my last point, Spinister is as much an Armada character as RoD Galvatron is a G1 character. They're multiverse crossovers. If the Galvatron in the end of the US comic run counts as a G1 character, then Bludgeon counts as an Armada character.

Anywho - back to the initial point in hand. Lio Convoy is not a G1 character. He's part of BWII, which is part of JBW, which ties into JG1. Which is multiversally separate to the US G1.

Though he is also part of IDW's Beast Wars. Which is not part of IDW's G1, for obvious reasons. Though could arguably be in continuity with the animated BW (and its own G1 universe, and is seemingly in continuity with BotCon Beast Wars. And incorporates adjusted (AU) elements of JBW, though obviously not the entire story). Brain hurts again.

... then there's Robot Masters.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 09:28 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Also, while the specifics of Prime's origins vary from reality to reality, the Matrix, like Primus, Unicron, and the Original 13 are constants throughout the multiverse and follow the same laws in all realities.
Except that Primus wasn't part of G1 cartoon continuity (The TFs were created by the Quintessons), Unicron was created by a monkey in the same series, and the Original 13 were (to the best of my knowledge) only ever mentioned in Dreamwave.

It's a shame The Ultimate Guide used DW as its "default base continuity", considering that it was brand new at the time, and dead and buried within two years.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 09:30 AM   #12
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So is Alpha Trion had the Matrix at the start of War Dawn but didn't at the end why did he still look exactly the same?

My memories a bit vauge, but I think Five Faces of Darkness only says he looked after/hid the Matrix, not that he carried it within himself.

As for DW continuity, this bit:

Quote:
These Autobots have traditionally been the wisest and most respected members of Cybertronian society
Doesn't seem to apply to their own fiction as Optimus wasn't very respected prior to becoming Prime (everyone seems to think it's a bad idea) and, whislt having a lot of book knowledge, didn't really have the practical experience to be considered "wise" at that stage either.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:31 AM   #13
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It's the same Unicron, not a different one. Unicron in [u]Armada[/i] is the same Unicron that exists in G1, is the same Unicron that exists in Japanese G1, is the same who exists in RID, etc, just as Primus is the same Primus in all of these realities and Universes. It's not different Unicrons and different Primuses. Also, Japanese G1 is still G1. Thus, BW II and BW Neo, are also still set in the G1 reality familiy, and as a result, Leo Convoy is still a G1 character.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
It's the same Unicron, not a different one. Unicron in [u]Armada[/i] is the same Unicron that exists in G1, is the same Unicron that exists in Japanese G1, is the same who exists in RID, etc, just as Primus is the same Primus in all of these realities and Universes. It's not different Unicrons and different Primuses. Also, Japanese G1 is still G1. Thus, BW II and BW Neo, are also still set in the G1 reality familiy, and as a result, Leo Convoy is still a G1 character.
It's not the same Unicron in the G1 cartoon though (unless you really want to jump through some mad hoops).

Myself, I still put BW firmly in the cartoon continuity. For me a few off handed in joke references to things like Primus don't make it a part of the comicverse anymore than Jetfire using Primacron as a swearword makes IDW part of the cartooniverse.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
Except that Primus wasn't part of G1 cartoon continuity (The TFs were created by the Quintessons), Unicron was created by a monkey in the same series, and the Original 13 were (to the best of my knowledge) only ever mentioned in Dreamwave.

It's a shame The Ultimate Guide used DW as its "default base continuity", considering that it was brand new at the time, and dead and buried within two years.
Yes, it does apply to the Cartoon continuity. Remember, the 3H Botcon series Wreckers was set in the cartoon continuity, and Primus being the true creator of the Transformers was retconned in to cartoon continuity in issue #3. Also, Beast Wars was also set in G1 cartoon continuity and they too established Primus—not the Quintessans—as the true creator of the Transformers. The Quintessans simply enslaved them very early on, and changed them to suit their own twisted needs. Primacron could have very well believed he had created Unicron when in reality, he was probably suffering from dilussions of grandure, or had been subliminally induced by the real Unicron from the Astral Plane to build a new body for him from the remnants of his old one. We don't know for sure. I vote for dilusions of grandure myself. The Original 13 are also mentioned extensively throughout the 3H material and on the Transformers website, and indirectly, the old Marvel comics. Remember, the Ask Vector Prime Q&A? Vector Prime was one of the Original 13 as was the Fallen, Liege Maximo, Prima, the Last Autobot (Marvel G1&2), as well as apparently Alpha Trion (DW) and Maccadam (TUG, Prime Spark, Fun Publications Cybertron). Hasbro retconned the origins of Cybertron, the Transformers, and Unicron to be the same regardless of reality, so that all realities and all continuties diverge from a single origin.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Myself, I still put BW firmly in the cartoon continuity. For me a few off handed in joke references to things like Primus don't make it a part of the comicverse anymore than Jetfire using Primacron as a swearword makes IDW part of the cartooniverse.
1) I can't see how you dismiss the Covenant of Primus as a joke reference.

2) Just because it's not in cartoon continuity doesn't mean it has to be in comic continuity. I'm personally of the belief that it's its own continuity, that happens to be pitched somewhere between the two.

And, to hammer the point home, Lio Convoy is not a G1 character. Because there's no such thing as G1 - it's a fan-made term that blanket refers to anything released prior to Generation 2. Which Lio Convoy isn't. And no amount of loose connections to the Japanese pre-BW universe will change that.

The closest we've got is Takara's "Generation One" brand, which they stick on retro tie-in stuff. And I can't see them ever sticking it on LC, because he's part of the BW brand.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 09:55 AM   #17
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Retcons, retcons and fanfics. Desperate attempts to make sense from the slapdash work of Don Glut. You'll be quoting eHobby tech specs next.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
It's not the same Unicron in the G1 cartoon though (unless you really want to jump through some mad hoops).

Myself, I still put BW firmly in the cartoon continuity. For me a few off handed in joke references to things like Primus don't make it a part of the comicverse anymore than Jetfire using Primacron as a swearword makes IDW part of the cartooniverse.
Yes, it is the same Unicron. and really there aren't really many "hoops" to jump through to make that retcon work, which Hasbro, 3H, Bob Forward , and Simon Furman did rather well. There are two ways you can reconcile the cartoon "Primacron" origin for Unicron with the current established origin for him and Primus across the multiverse which establishes them as heralds created by The One to watch over the multiverse. First, Primacron could be suiffering from severe dilusions of grandure when he tells his story to Grimlock and company. The other is that Unicron himself subliminally induced Primacron to build him a new body (from his remnants), making him believe he was creating the being of his own accord. All you need to do is reinterpret the events portrayed in the cartoon in light of the new information. That is what retcons are for. It is what they do.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 09:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
First, Primacron could be suiffering from severe dilusions of grandure when he tells his story to Grimlock and company.
I think you mean Primacron's assistant, yeah? Who, for some bizarre reason was drawn as The Matrix...

Seriously, as pretty as CotP is, it's like an acid flashback...

Quote:
The other is that Unicron himself subliminally induced Primacron to build him a new body
Workable.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 10:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
1) I can't see how you dismiss the Covenant of Primus as a joke reference.

2) Just because it's not in cartoon continuity doesn't mean it has to be in comic continuity. I'm personally of the belief that it's its own continuity, that happens to be pitched somewhere between the two.

And, to hammer the point home, Lio Convoy is not a G1 character. Because there's no such thing as G1 - it's a fan-made term that blanket refers to anything released prior to Generation 2. Which Lio Convoy isn't. And no amount of loose connections to the Japanese pre-BW universe will change that.

The closest we've got is Takara's "Generation One" brand, which they stick on retro tie-in stuff. And I can't see them ever sticking it on LC, because he's part of the BW brand.
While the term "G1" may have started as a "Fan made" term, it has since been applied officially to the series. Hasbro uses that term for the commemorative reissues, DW used Generation One as the subtitle of their ongoing G1 series as well, and the Ultimate Guide also refers to that era of the saga as Generation One. The fan term has now become the official term. Thus, it is no longer a "Fan" term.
 
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