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Old 2007-10-10, 10:02 AM   #21
inflatable dalek
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Originally posted by Tramp
Yes, it does apply to the Cartoon continuity. Remember, the 3H Botcon series Wreckers was set in the cartoon continuity, and Primus being the true creator of the Transformers was retconned in to cartoon continuity in issue #3.

That's not actually canon though is it?


Quote:
Also, Beast Wars was also set in G1 cartoon continuity and they too established Primus—not the Quintessans—as the true creator of the Transformers. The Quintessans simply enslaved them very early on, and changed them to suit their own twisted needs.


Could you point to me where BW establishes any of that? All it says on Primus is that his name is a swear word and he wrote a book of accurate prophocy, Nostrodamus meets Gordon Bennett. There's plenty of wriggle room in there for peeps to infer the entire God background story if they wish to, but equally plenty to allow people like me to simply ignore it.

Quote:

Primacron could have very well believed he had created Unicron when in reality, he was probably suffering from dilussions of grandure, or had been subliminally induced by the real Unicron from the Astral Plane to build a new body for him from the remnants of his old one. We don't know for sure. I vote for dilusions of grandure myself.
[/b]

Except that the entire "Priacron built Unicron" story isn't told by him- it's told by his assistant who seems to be the Matrix...

Quote:
The Original 13 are also mentioned extensively throughout the 3H material and on the Transformers website, and indirectly, the old Marvel comics.
"Indirectly" as in years latter a fam threw forwards a few names from the comic in a artical he wrote on a bit of DW continuity. As far as I'm aware the Fallen in the only only to have been named as such in any official fiction.

The problem with Unicron being the same in each Universe is that- with the one exception of the alt seen in Armada he always completely fails to destroy Cybertron/Primus. So he never actually gets to finish up and move onto the next job...
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:02 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Halfshell
I think you mean Primacron's assistant, yeah? Who, for some bizarre reason was drawn as The Matrix...

Seriously, as pretty as CotP is, it's like an acid flashback...



Workable.
Exactly, which is why the current retconned origin for Primus, Unicron and the transformers can still be applied to all relaities including the cartoon reality. It still works.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:08 AM   #23
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[re stuff posted about Unicron whilst I was reading]

No need to reaffirm - I was accepting your point on that score. I'm just not a big fan of retcons that try and make the flavour of the month storyline (which is what DW was at the time of the Ultimate Guide) apply across the board.

If it can be worked, all good and well. Doesn't mean I have to like the motivation behind it.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 10:11 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Halfshell
1) I can't see how you dismiss the Covenant of Primus as a joke reference.
The book itself is of course hugely important- but the name of it is just an joke reference really. Primus being in the title has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. It's a nice reference but the book could be called anything really and it would still serve the same function.

Quote:
2) Just because it's not in cartoon continuity doesn't mean it has to be in comic continuity. I'm personally of the belief that it's its own continuity, that happens to be pitched somewhere between the two.
And that's cool- I just find it simpler to put it in the cartooniverse.

Quote:
es, it is the same Unicron. and really there aren't really many "hoops" to jump through to make that retcon work, which Hasbro, 3H, Bob Forward , and Simon Furman did rather well.
When have Forward or Furman written anything that reconciles the two Unicron origins directly?
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:14 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
The problem with Unicron being the same in each Universe is that- with the one exception of the alt seen in Armada he always completely fails to destroy Cybertron/Primus. So he never actually gets to finish up and move onto the next job...
Maybe when he gets blown up in one reality he just shunts across to a next, acquires a new body and carries on.

Ie his destruction in the Armada comic is followed by his resurrection via Primacron in the US cartoon. Where he's learnt his lesson about trying to take on the Matrix and plans to just covertly sweep it under the rug, but Galvatron being a **** about things makes it all go Pete Tong.

No? Eh.

But yeah, 3H comics etc may have an official Hasbro endorsement, but as far as I'm bothered it's a case of a fan being asked to write a comic for the convention and deciding "hey, I know - I'll fanwank several continuity blips out of the way." Yes, admittedly it has a Hasbro stamp and as such can be considered official, by I can just fanon it out of the way.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 10:15 AM   #26
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Originally posted by inflatable dalek
That's not actually canon though is it?
Yes, it is. It was approved, sanctioned, and licensed by Hasbro wasn't it? That makes it canon.

Quote:

Could you point to me where BW establishes any of that? All it says on Primus is that his name is a swear word and he wrote a book of accurate prophocy, Nostrodamus meets Gordon Bennett. There's plenty of wriggle room in there for peeps to infer the entire God background story if they wish to, but equally plenty to allow people like me to simply ignore it.
They wouldn't invoke the name of Primus if he didn't exist in their history. If he weren't their creator; if he weren't their "god".

Quote:
Except that the entire "Priacron built Unicron" story isn't told by him- it's told by his assistant who seems to be the Matrix...
Regardless, How many millenia; How many millions if not billions of years has it been? Once again, details become confused, or forgotten. Facts become twisted. The truth is lost to the ages.

Quote:
"Indirectly" as in years latter a fam threw forwards a few names from the comic in a artical he wrote on a bit of DW continuity. As far as I'm aware the Fallen in the only only to have been named as such in any official fiction.
Nope. Both Prima and Liege Maximo are established in the old Marvel comics as being among the very first transformers ever created by Primus himself. Prima is the very first, and Liege Maximo is created right after as his opposite. The Last Autobot is also established as the very last of Primus' direct creations. These are established in the Marvel G1 and G2 comics. Liege Maximo himself states that he was created immediately after Prima in the last issue of the G2 comics. Ask Vector Prime, and Cybertron establish Vector Prime as one of the Original 13 as well, and Alpha Trion's MtMtE entry pretty well establishes him as one of their number also

Quote:
The problem with Unicron being the same in each Universe is that- with the one exception of the alt seen in Armada he always completely fails to destroy Cybertron/Primus. So he never actually gets to finish up and move onto the next job...
No, he is often forced from a given reality for a time, thus he travels to another to do his dirty work there.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:16 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
The book itself is of course hugely important- but the name of it is just an joke reference really. Primus being in the title has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. It's a nice reference but the book could be called anything really and it would still serve the same function.
Works for me.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:19 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
Maybe when he gets blown up in one reality he just shunts across to a next, acquires a new body and carries on.

Ie his destruction in the Armada comic is followed by his resurrection via Primacron in the US cartoon. Where he's learnt his lesson about trying to take on the Matrix and plans to just covertly sweep it under the rug, but Galvatron being a **** about things makes it all go Pete Tong.

No? Eh.

But yeah, 3H comics etc may have an official Hasbro endorsement, but as far as I'm bothered it's a case of a fan being asked to write a comic for the convention and deciding "hey, I know - I'll fanwank several continuity blips out of the way." Yes, admittedly it has a Hasbro stamp and as such can be considered official, by I can just fanon it out of the way.
The very fact that it has Hasbro's official endorsment makes it canon. Of course a fan can "fanon" it out of existance, but that doesn't change its official status. As fro Unicron. Even if his body is destroyed, his spark core survives and he will regenerate. The Ultimate Guide even states flat out that Unicron's Spark core is resistant even to the energy of the Matrix. Simply put, Unicron cannot be permanently destroyed. He will eventually regenerate by consuming other sparks or Energon.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:21 AM   #29
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Or by conning monkey scientists into building new bodies for him.
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 10:24 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
The book itself is of course hugely important- but the name of it is just an joke reference really. Primus being in the title has no bearing on the plot whatsoever. It's a nice reference but the book could be called anything really and it would still serve the same function.



And that's cool- I just find it simpler to put it in the cartooniverse.



When have Forward or Furman written anything that reconciles the two Unicron origins directly?
When Furman wrote the Ultimate Guide, and when Forward wrote Season 2 of BW which established Primus into G1 cartoon continuity. Also, having a single origin is a lot simpler and makes a heck of a lot more sense than a whole bunch of disparate and conflicting origins.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:24 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
Maybe when he gets blown up in one reality he just shunts across to a next, acquires a new body and carries on.
Unicron is officially rubbish!

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Yes, it is. It was approved, sanctioned, and licensed by Hasbro wasn't it? That makes it canon.
Lots of stuff is officially sanctioned- I adore both the ladybird books and Battle Beneath the Ice but wouldn't use either of them as sources for a debate on events in the comic or cartoon despite them being just as "official" in those terms.

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They wouldn't invoke the name of Primus if he didn't exist in their history. If he weren't their creator; if he weren't their "god".
Gorden Bennett isn't a God last time I checked... Venom Grubs getting a namecheck in Doctor Who a few years ago doesn't make Bill Sutton's novelsiation of Doctor Who and the Zarbi canon either.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:25 AM   #32
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Originally posted by Halfshell
Or by conning monkey scientists into building new bodies for him.
If that is what happened, which I doubt.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:28 AM   #33
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I think dalek was making the point that a few offhand references to Primus doesn't necessarily serve as reconciling differences in Unicron's origin.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:29 AM   #34
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Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Unicron is officially rubbish!



Lots of stuff is officially sanctioned- I adore both the ladybird books and Battle Beneath the Ice but wouldn't use either of them as sources for a debate on events in the comic or cartoon despite them being just as "official" in those terms.
Why not? IF there is relevant information, use them.



Quote:
Gorden Bennett isn't a God last time I checked... Venom Grubs getting a namecheck in Doctor Who a few years ago doesn't make Bill Sutton's novelsiation of Doctor Who and the Zarbi canon either.
No, but they are specific known characters in their specific stories' realities. If Primus didn't exist in the G1 cartoon reality, The Transformers in that reality would have no knowledge of him, thus, they would not invoke his name. Also, given the context in which it is invoked is reverently, as one would invoke a diety.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:30 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
If that is what happened, which I doubt.
But you're the one who posited the theory of Unicron getting Primacron to build him a new body. And now you doubt it? Eh?
 

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Old 2007-10-10, 10:31 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
When Furman wrote the Ultimate Guide,
Not within any actual fiction then? Does the Ultimate Guide actually firmly say "Priacron and Primus can be reconciled in this way:" at any point?

Quote:
and when Forward wrote Season 2 of BW which established Primus into G1 cartoon continuity.
Ignoring for the moment that Bob admitted in one of the Titan trades that when they first namechecked Primus they didn't realise he wasn't from the cartoon- When did he write anything about how Priacron and Primus can be put together?

Don't get me wrong, if you want to include the 3H stuff in your personal canon that's fine, but it seems as if you're attributing stuff to various other media that both isn't there and wasn't intended.

Quote:
Also, having a single origin is a lot simpler and makes a heck of a lot more sense than a whole bunch of disparate and conflicting origins.
What if Transformers 2 gives us a completely different third origin?
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:34 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Halfshell
I think dalek was making the point that a few offhand references to Primus doesn't necessarily serve as reconciling differences in Unicron's origin.
That may be, but bringing Primus into the Cartoon universe does change the entire dynamic of Unicron. And, apparently, Unicron does appear in the BW stories, though, exactly when, I'm not sure. On top of that, the Universe story line and Wreckers do firmly establish the new origin of Primus and Unicron accros all universes including the G1 cartoon universe. The Ultimate Guide also confirms this with Unicron's entries.
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:34 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Tramp

No, but they are specific known characters in their specific stories' realities. If Primus didn't exist in the G1 cartoon reality, The Transformers in that reality would have no knowledge of him, thus, they would not invoke his name. Also, given the context in which it is invoked is reverently, as one would invoke a diety.
All it shows is there is a character called Primus in the cartoon Universe. Anything else is assumed based on knowledge of the character in the Marvel comic...
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:41 AM   #39
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Yes- the Primus named in BW could indeed be the same Godlike being featured in the Marvel comic. BW Primus could equally be the name of a species of psychic slug that writes books. Viewers unfamiliar with the name wouldn't assume it refers to a God from the BW references alone. In fact, they probably won't notice it at all it's that casual (a friedn has just finished watching the show, he had lots of questions but has to to go "So who' this Primus then?").
 
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Old 2007-10-10, 10:43 AM   #40
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Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Not within any actual fiction then? Does the Ultimate Guide actually firmly say "Priacron and Primus can be reconciled in this way:" at any point?
The Primacron origin story for Unicron is never even discussed. What the Ultimate Guide says about Unicron is strictly the shared origin with Primus and their battles accross the multiverse. Primacron isn't even mentioned at all.



Quote:
Ignoring for the moment that Bob admitted in one of the Titan trades that when they first namechecked Primus they didn't realise he wasn't from the cartoon- When did he write anything about how Priacron and Primus can be put together?
I never said he did anything with Primacron. I said, he, Furman, Hasbreo, 3H, et.al, established the Primus/Unicron, multiversal connection for all realities including the cartoon reality. Exactly how Primacron fits into that scenerio as a result of that retcon is up for interpretation. What did change for sure is Primacron dod not really "create" Unicron, just as the Quintessans didn't truely create the Transformers.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, if you want to include the 3H stuff in your personal canon that's fine, but it seems as if you're attributing stuff to various other media that both isn't there and wasn't intended.
The fact is though, that it was intended and approved and sanctioned by Hasbro, thus making it official canon. That is why it is referenced in Hasbro's Universe story line for their toys, why they referenced in on Ask Vector Prime, and why it was brought into the Ultimate Guide.


Quote:
What if Transformers 2 gives us a completely different third origin?
The movie series has left the originsof the transformers pretty vague, and does include the Allspark, which according to canon, is the spark of Primus himself. The only real difference here is that it now has a physical form.
 
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