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Old 2007-12-28, 07:08 PM   #1
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Wales? O___o
Cool Yet Another 'Female' Transformers Thread

[SIZE=1.7][Brand new super-awesome, ****s and giggles, 01-03-2008 at 10:35 PM, insanity edit] Why God, why? Why did I make this jokey post in the original thread, that this is snipped from -- it was nothing more than a joke and just look at what this thread has become. So please, don't take this seriously. I'll remember to label jokes and explain what they mean from now on. :U[/edit]
[/SIZE]

Surely anyone who thinks a machine is either male or female is stupid?

Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Well, the new Battlestar Galactica made robots sexy by the cleaver trick of having them look exactly like underwear models.
HAWWWWT.

Edit: I'd just like to point out that the above post is a joke referring to the tired Fembot debates and shouldn't be taken seriously. I wasn't trying to voice an opinion (Probably uniformed too ^__^) or anything -- I fear those debates. Except the "Haawwwwwt" bit. Oh yeah, baby.
 

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Old 2007-12-29, 02:37 PM   #2
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Quote:
Surely anyone who thinks a machine is either male or female is stupid?
There are ways to make a machine female, certainly (and we do it in real life, both with physical connections and with programming code). It's a bit more bizzare to make the Transformers females sexually resemble humans, though.. you would think that their reproductive systems would be more metaphysical in nature.

As for the pin-up book. Oy. If it were a good art reference, and that was the primary goal, it may not be a bad idea (good character models of the female Autobots and other characters are somewhat hard to find). If it was a bit tongue-in-cheek, a bit of self-parody, then go for it.

But if it's like the Marvel Swimsuit issues? Hell no.

And I think the reason so many fans are against this is largely because of Kiss Players. That seriously creeped me out.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 03:54 PM   #3
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Yeah, probably should have made that joke a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.

Another super-awesome modern edit, for ****s and giggles: This post wasn't enough to stop it -- there's no stopping Fembot threads. D:
 

Last edited by Aardvark; 2008-01-02 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 2007-12-29, 04:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aardvark
Yeah, probably should have made that a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.

As for sex, Beast Wars and Beast Machines is rather explicit about sexual contact, though the protoform-based Transformers are designed to mimic organic life in many ways, so that may just be a natural outgrowth of that.

Physical attraction between 'robots' seems odd to us, but that may just be an aesthetic preference and some hard-wired expectations. Arcee and the G1 femmes, while definately female shaped, didn't really scream 'pin-up' in their characterizations. You also didn't have all the 'male' robots drooling over their designs... attraction and affection seemed more mature than that, frankly.

(Chromia and Ironhide's very brief interaction was very nice, for instance)

Sure, they LOOKED like Barbies in armor, but they didn't act like Barbies in armor, and weren't treated as such.

Cybertron Thunderblast, on the other hand...
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 04:34 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.
Though I have to say the comic having no gender's for the characters (and coming up for an explanation for Arcee that doesn't contradict that) is a big part of why I much prefer it to the cartoon. IDW seem to be going for the same thing despite Alex Milne's best efforts...
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 04:58 PM   #6
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I think it's more dis-served to make a big deal about their being female Transformers, particularly when the writers (most infamously Simon Furman) suddenly go "A GIRL! WHAT NOW?! THE WORLD IS ENDING! COOTIES! WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!"

Or the insistance that they be treated as a seperate entity. Elita One's group could be an exception, since it was explicitly stated that females were being hunted to EXTINCTION as a Decepticon military goal (begging its own questions)...

But since then there's been this 'demand' that any female Transformer have an 'origin' story, or that they be treated very differently from the males, or -worse- have to include the issue of sex explicity when they're introduced.

I honestly think THAT is a bigger problem than justifying their existence as backstory, which could be easily done if needed. (One scene each from BW and BM solidifies WHY you would have females, after all)

And, as for Arcee's comic introduction, her introduction as 'female design, but gender-netural' is eliminated in the same issue, thanks to Hot Rod's reaction - and also the explicit romantic entanglement with Rodimus Prime in "Space Pirates".
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:09 PM   #7
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Wales? O___o
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Soooo... Gravedigger's a pretty cool name for Scrapper.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
I think it's more dis-served to make a big deal about their being female Transformers, particularly when the writers (most infamously Simon Furman) suddenly go "A GIRL! WHAT NOW?! THE WORLD IS ENDING! COOTIES! WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!"
In fairness though, the comic had already established its asexual take on Transformers before Arcee was introduced. Once she was on board in her amazingly sexist pink and heels an explanation of somesort became necessary. though it's not as if Furman was desperately gagging to provide that explanation considering Pries's Rib was three years after target:2006 brought the movie and thus Arcee into the comic continuity.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:28 PM   #9
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Personally, having not been forced to use her, I think Furman was a bit of an idiot including her in the first place. I mean, what was the point?
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:33 PM   #10
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It was to explain her presence in the movie. Why he had to make a specific origin for her (until then, only Cloudburst's rather panicked comments defined Transformers sexuality) is beyond me, though. No reason she couldn't have just been part of Fort Max's crew.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Personally, having not been forced to use her, I think Furman was a bit of an idiot including her in the first place. I mean, what was the point?
Well, she just came as part of the Movie package anyway didn't she? Even if he had never featured her directly she'd still have been out there in the Movieverse (assuming that changing the dates in the Movie comic to 2006 firmly means all we see in there is supposed to be part of the version of the Movie events that happens in the comic that is. Does that make any sense? I'm on enough lemsip to floor an elephant...)
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 05:38 PM   #12
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Wales? O___o
Smile

[Edit]Well, I'm an idiot*. For some bizarre reason, I thought Cliffjumper was talking about her upcoming Spotlight (I know, doesn't make a lick of sense). Eyes like a hawk. Didn't see dalek's or Vanguard's respective posts. Nothing to see here -- move along.[/edit]

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Personally, having not been forced to use her, I think Furman was a bit of an idiot including her in the first place. I mean, what was the point?
Controversy. Getting some Fembot fan sales. He really likes the "character" -- no wait, that one doesn't make any sense. It may be an interesting and/or important plot point. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

*Feel free to quote that one. Actually... don't.
 

Last edited by Aardvark; 2007-12-29 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 2007-12-29, 06:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Well, she just came as part of the Movie package anyway didn't she?
No, IIRC her debut was "Space Pirates", discounting (as most do) the TF:TM mini. Therefore the "Movie" arcs beforehand had worked well enough without her, and if "Space Pirates" wasn't complete wank he could have come up with some other way of getting the Matrix off Roddy than "He wants to bone Arcee still". In fact, Arcee was one of several factors that rendered "Space Pirates" shockingly bad that hadn't been present in other post-movie stories (Quintessons, Wheelie, Rodimus being a useless prick et cetera).

Maybe Furman liked the idea of the first female character to turn up in the comic proper being a useless bitch whose airheaded ADD got hundreds of Autobots slaughtered, I don't know. But having winged it for, what, two, three years there was no driving need to include her. I suspect if someone was to ask, the explanation would be readers kept writing in and asking why she didn't appear, but then if the guy's taking storytelling tips from 8-year olds, well...

What evidence we have does point to the question being raised just because Furman had an answer, TBH. Although the laziness of "Space Pirates" possibly demanded her use as a cheap plot-device.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 07:22 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by ArdvarkYeah, probably should have made that a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.
Gender does equal sex by its very definition. By dictionary definition, "gender" refers both to the phyiscal sex and to the cultural and scietal roles attributed to a person's sex. In either case, it is tied directly to sex. Only sexually reproducing life forms have genders. Only sexually reproducing life forms have males and females. Other than Marvel, all TF realities have male and female Transformers. Just because they're mechanically based life does not mean that they can't reproduce through some sexual means. the Japanese manga version of Victory certainly proves otherwise. All of the Decepticons had wives, sisters, and children. They had families that they were fighting to save. The Lithonians from the movie, another Transformer race, also had males, females and children. Wheelie had a mother and father who died in the crash that left him stranded on Quintessa. Transformers engage in courtship, romantic rivalries, and marriage, all of which is exclusive to a sexually reproducing species since the purpose of these activities in life is in the selection of a mate for the purpose of reproduction and raising of offspring. And, given that their basic composition is nanomachine-based to begin with, and the fact that they do have genetic code (they have a DNA analog), there is no reason why they couldn't reproduce through some form of sexual means, including but not necessarily phyisical interfacing.

Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard

Quote:
Originally posted by Aardvark
Yeah, probably should have made that a little more (Little/ a lot -- it's all the same) clear -- I was going for/alluding to the age-old "Transforming Robots??!! Gender - Sex??!! ETC??!!!" argument. In other words, gentle prodding.
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.

As for sex, Beast Wars and Beast Machines is rather explicit about sexual contact, though the protoform-based Transformers are designed to mimic organic life in many ways, so that may just be a natural outgrowth of that.

Physical attraction between 'robots' seems odd to us, but that may just be an aesthetic preference and some hard-wired expectations. Arcee and the G1 femmes, while definately female shaped, didn't really scream 'pin-up' in their characterizations. You also didn't have all the 'male' robots drooling over their designs... attraction and affection seemed more mature than that, frankly.

(Chromia and Ironhide's very brief interaction was very nice, for instance)

Sure, they LOOKED like Barbies in armor, but they didn't act like Barbies in armor, and weren't treated as such.

Cybertron Thunderblast, on the other hand...
Yeah, Thunderblast does fit that mold, which is what made her so funny. Personally, I don't find physical attraction between males and females of as robotic life form unusual at all. It makes perfect sense. If they have genders, then they would logically be capable of reproduction, and thus would need to be "hardwired" to seek out perspective mates of the opposite sex, just like any other life form, organic or otherwise.
Quote:
Originally posted by inflatable dalek

Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
Thing is, we've had female Transformers since 1985. They've been in every line in some capacity except Generation Two, so arguing about their existence seems kinda moot to me.
Though I have to say the comic having no gender's for the characters (and coming up for an explanation for Arcee that doesn't contradict that) is a big part of why I much prefer it to the cartoon. IDW seem to be going for the same thing despite Alex Milne's best efforts...
I agree. The Marvel reality was the only reality which made Transformers asexual, and thus genderless. Personally, I thought that was a very bad idea. They're too complex an organism to be asexual, and only being capable of creating new life through building them and them imbuing them with a spark would make them not life forms. one of the key life processes that all life forms must be capable of for survival is the ability to self-propagate through asexual (budding, fission) or sexual means (the union of gametes). For any complex organism, asexual reproduction is out of the question. It doesn't provide for the genetic diversity necessary to allow the species to survive disease or to evolve. And, yes, there are diseases that affect Transformers in canon.

Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
I think it's more dis-served to make a big deal about their being female Transformers, particularly when the writers (most infamously Simon Furman) suddenly go "A GIRL! WHAT NOW?! THE WORLD IS ENDING! COOTIES! WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!"

Or the insistance that they be treated as a seperate entity. Elita One's group could be an exception, since it was explicitly stated that females were being hunted to EXTINCTION as a Decepticon military goal (begging its own questions)...

But since then there's been this 'demand' that any female Transformer have an 'origin' story, or that they be treated very differently from the males, or -worse- have to include the issue of sex explicity when they're introduced.

I honestly think THAT is a bigger problem than justifying their existence as backstory, which could be easily done if needed. (One scene each from BW and BM solidifies WHY you would have females, after all)

And, as for Arcee's comic introduction, her introduction as 'female design, but gender-netural' is eliminated in the same issue, thanks to Hot Rod's reaction - and also the explicit romantic entanglement with Rodimus Prime in "Space Pirates".
That is one of the biggest issues I have with Furman. There is no reason to "explain" this. Transformers are living beings. They're life forms—organisms—not just robots. There is no reason why they wouldn't have males and females just like many organic species, nor why those sexes could not play a role in the propagation of their species. Just because they're robotic does not mean anything. Also, they don't have to explicitly include sex anywhere. It can be implicit just as it was in the original cartoon, movie, and Japanese Victory manga. On top of that, we only know the identities of a few of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. It is quite possible, and probable, that at least one of the unnamed members was a femme. I have a sneaking suspicion that Beta might be one of the Original 13, given her age and connection to Alpha Trion, though I have no proof that she is. As I said, it's just seculation on my part. That is all we need. Show that they have been male and female from the beginning. Show them with families, courting, marrying, having and raising children, etc. That is all we need. We certainly don't need explicit sex. We don't need a huge explaination why a robotic race would have females.

And that is all I will say on that particular matter here.

As for a "pin-up book, I see no reason why we shouldn't do one. It sounds like a lot of fun, and yes, could be a good piece of reference material showing these characters in different poses and angles, outside of battle, and at the same time, giving us a tongue-in-cheek glimpse at what a male Cybertronain might "read" for fun. As long as it doesn't go overboard, I certainly have no problem with it.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 07:35 PM   #15
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Wales? O___o
Red face

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Gender does equal sex by its very definition
I never said it didn't -- I never said that it did either. And I'm certainly not going to get into one of these debates as I value my sanity.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 08:09 PM   #16
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Poor Tramp, in the grip of unrestrained biochemicals... Those big explanations echo those the /slash/ Tfiction writers have come up with. Heh - those writers are, mostly, female...

Cloudburst tells it like it is. That these machines can have relationships is beyond doubt, but they are, perforce, platonic. Not until we get to BW does anything else crop up, so I can go with the idea that taking on animal characteristics takes on something of a true gender nature. Would explain Tantrum's desires for blue and red fembots, neh?

Gravedigger is a pretty cool name for Scrapper, indeed.
 

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Old 2007-12-29, 08:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Only sexually reproducing life forms have genders.
Nouns are life forms in France, you heard it here first folks.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
the Japanese manga version of Victory
Doesn't supply any evidence of sexual reproduction -- an equally valid lens on the story is that the robots have relationships analogous to human family roles (maintenance-giving, education, etc) and that there's a fad of building new TFs into smaller bodies whilst learning takes place.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
only being capable of creating new life through building them and them imbuing them with a spark would make them not life forms. one of the key life processes that all life forms must be capable of for survival is the ability to self-propagate through asexual (budding, fission) or sexual means (the union of gametes).
You'd run with Data from Star Trek not being alive, then? Very... organically-oriented... of you.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 08:26 PM   #18
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It make an interesting story for the pretenders on how they handled their new gender designations when issued with their shells. Of course if the Marvel comic had made any attempt to have them able to shrink to normal human size to go undercover .

Them hjaving to learn all the soial interactions , rules and ettiquette, or even like on Doctor Who Voyage of the Damned someone trying to interpret the social mores and getting it hideously wrong.
 

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Old 2007-12-29, 08:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Nouns are life forms in France, you heard it here first folks.
The definitions I gave refers to organisms, not language. Even with words, the "gender" of a word is mainly applied based upon the sex of the individual speaking or being referred to. Some words are indeed male or female in some languages, particularly French, Italian and Spanish. Both have variants of words depending upon the sex of the individual it refers to. Sords such as "saint", for instance. For a male saint, the word is "San", for a female, it is "Santa". Both mean the same thing, but one is male the other female.
Quote:
Doesn't supply any evidence of sexual reproduction -- an equally valid lens on the story is that the robots have relationships analogous to human family roles (maintenance-giving, education, etc) and that there's a fad of building new TFs into smaller bodies whilst learning takes place.
Yes, it does supply evidence of sexual reproduction. This is especially evident when you take into account the priously established information provided in the cartoon from Seasons two and three, as well as the movie. They all point to sexual capability.


Quote:
You'd run with Data from Star Trek not being alive, then? Very... organically-oriented... of you.
Data was shown to be "alive" from a legal, not scientific stand point. Scientifically, no, he isn't a life form. He lacks at least one, if not more necessary life processes—the ability to self-propagate. I believe he may also lack the abilty to maintain homeostasis, though he may indeed have that capability. He certainly can't grow physically. Transformers have shown the capability of meeting every one of the seven key life processes necessary for life, either explicitly or implicitly. They have shown the capacity for maintaining homeostasis, they have shown the capacity for evolution (they have DNA), they have shown the capacity to metabolize. They have shown the capacity for physical growth. They have shown the capacity to react to outside stimuli. They have shown that they have internal organization of systems. All of these were explicitly shown. Implicitly, they have been shown to be capable of some form of sexual reproduction. It is not explicitly shown by actually showing them engaged in the act (which they could never do given the target audience), but it is implicit in the interactions between males and females (key activities which only serve the function of the selection of a mate for the purpose of sexual reproduction), and in the children that result from their unions. They are boyfriends and girlfriends, husbands and wives, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, nieces and nephews. and this has been a part of their society for millions of years since their creation, long before they ever met humans. I would call that pretty compelling evidence.

Once again, I do not wish to go into a huge debate over the issue, at least not in this thread. There is a very old thread about the subject eslewhere for that.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 09:00 PM   #20
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There's no evidence at all in the original series of sexual activity with anyone but Carly and Spike - who are, Rebirth and 'Autobot Spike' aside, not Transformers.

Romantic attachments? Yes. There's plenty of evidence of that.

But there's a whopping two scenes for all of Transformers that illustrate sex - one in Beast Wars (and that wasn't exactly NORMAL), and one more explicit in Beast Machines.

I can't see how you can claim otherwise.
 
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