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Old 2007-12-29, 09:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
There's no evidence at all in the original series of sexual activity with anyone but Carly and Spike - who are, Rebirth and 'Autobot Spike' aside, not Transformers.

Romantic attachments? Yes. There's plenty of evidence of that.

But there's a whopping two scenes for all of Transformers that illustrate sex - one in Beast Wars (and that wasn't exactly NORMAL), and one more explicit in Beast Machines.

I can't see how you can claim otherwise.
Romantic attachments alone is evidence of sexual activity. The only purpose for romance, also known as courtship, is the selection of a prospective mate for the purpose of reproduction. Romantic rivalry is the competition over a prospectie mate, and this is evidenced in Hot Rod and Springer both vying for Arcee. Both of these serve no other physiological function in a species. That is why only sexually reproducing species engage in these specific activities. Asexually repoducing life does not engage in courtship at all They don't compete for prospective mates, they don't marry. They have no need to because those activities serve no physiological function in the survival or continuation of the species. It only serves a function in sexually reproducing species. Also, the manga version of Victory and the original movie show families and children. Cybertron Downshift als has a wife. These all show Transformers being married and being mothers and fathers. That too is evidence of sexual reproduction. It is implicit evidence, not explicit evidence.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 09:17 PM   #22
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There's a couple of things wrong with what you put forward.

On earth, romance is viewed in very very few species, sex is viewed down to the amoeba. The presence of romance does not require sex, nor does sex require the presence of romance. (Hell, check any college campus for proof of that)

And even if your first hypothesis were true, the Transformers both aren't Terran and aren't organic. Different rules may apply. We have no proof of what's up, aside from the scenes I mentioned.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 09:21 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Tramp
the "gender" of a word is mainly applied based upon the sex of the individual speaking or being referred to.
Nope. La gomme, la chaise, la table, le drapeau, le monde... der Himmel, die Luft, das Gras...

Some languages agree with speaker or subject... mała niebieskozielona planeta, moja doma, mój dom...

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
They all point to sexual capability.
They all point to behaviour modeled on species that have sexual capability.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Scientifically, no, he isn't a life form.
Then neither are Transformers, in most continuities. They're created.

(As we're so keen on science, I'd point out that most scientists use sex to refer to biological differences rather than gender. The fact the average prole doesn't distinguish between "is female" and "acts female" goes along with not understanding the difference between weight and mass. Britannica and most other works do make the distinctions.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
They have shown the capacity for physical growth.
They've demonstrated abilities to shift mass as well as bodily configuration almost instantaneously, which is somewhat different -- there's no pattern of, say, Wheelie or Bumblebee getting taller in line in line with Rodimus Prime, and Alpha Trion's concession to age is to glue something onto his chin.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
it is implicit in the interactions between males and females
Behaviour is implicit -- and indeed specifically introduced as programming.

If enough people spend time thinking about these hypothesised sexual off-screen interactions, maybe Jim'll have a viable book...
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 09:23 PM   #24
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Originally posted by TFVanguard
There's a couple of things wrong with what you put forward.

On earth, romance is viewed in very very few species, sex is viewed down to the amoeba. The presence of romance does not require sex, nor does sex require the presence of romance. (Hell, check any college campus for proof of that)

And even if your first hypothesis were true, the Transformers both aren't Terran and aren't organic. Different rules may apply. We have no proof of what's up, aside from the scenes I mentioned.
Actually, courtship is evident in all animal life. from the smalles amoeba to the largest whale. All sexually reproducing animals engage in courtship, and that is all "romance" is. Romance is courtship. The male seeks to woo the female in the hopes of getting her to mate with him and thus propagate the species. That is the function of courtship. As intelligent life, we apply other meanings and goals to romance, but the underlying function remains. That being selecting a mate with whome we wish to have sex with, and thus propagate our species. That si the fundamwental function of romance, and all animal life does this. It just takes different forms.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 09:47 PM   #25
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'Romance' is not necessarily 'courtship'.

Courtship behaviour in animals is meant to check the breeding status of the other, prove you're hot and available, and may also have implications in the ability to provide for offspring. OK - all those underscore human behaviour; we are animals, after all. But 'romance' is something else. It's what gets couples up the aisle (or the equivalent, in these enlightened times hem-hem).

And, before you go there: yes, some species mate for life. Saves all that time and effort next breeding season.

And it all has BA to do with giant alien mechanisms.
 

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Old 2007-12-29, 10:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Nope. La gomme, la chaise, la table, le drapeau, le monde... der Himmel, die Luft, das Gras...

Some languages agree with speaker or subject... mała niebieskozielona planeta, moja doma, mój dom...
, yes, and each is based upon several key factors of the language in question. The language imparts masculine or feminin characteristics to those objects.


Quote:
They all point to behaviour modeled on species that have sexual capability.
No, because these behaviors have been engaged in by the Transformers since the very begining, not just since they met Humans. Prime and Elita-1 wrre a romantic couple long before they were even Prime and Elita-1, for instance. And that was several million years before Prime left for Earth.


[quote]Then neither are Transformers, in most continuities. They're created.[/quiote][ They can be artificially created using protoforms, but there are a number of them who have been shown or stated to have had actual parents—mothers and fathers— or who are themselves mothers and fathers. Canon also says that they have genetic code. Also something Data lacks. Transformers have a DNA analog. Data does not.

Quote:
(As we're so keen on science, I'd point out that most scientists use sex to refer to biological differences rather than gender. The fact the average prole doesn't distinguish between "is female" and "acts female" goes along with not understanding the difference between weight and mass. Britannica and most other works do make the distinctions.)
Yes, but the socio-cultural "gender" is still intristically linked to an individual's sex. There is a difiference between "female" and "feminine. There is a difference between "male" and "masculine". "Female" refers to the physical sex. "Feminine" refers to socio-cultural behavior. "Male" refers to the physical sex. "Masculine" refers to socio-cultural behavior. A female can be very masculine, and a male can be very feminine, but a male cannot be female, and a female cannot be male. Transformers are male or female, not masculine or feminine.

here is the full definition of the word "gender" from the Merrium-Webters online dictionary, both grmarical, and in reference to living beings:
Quote:

Main Entry:
1gen·der Listen to the pronunciation of 1genderPronunciation:
\ˈjen-dər\ Function:
noun Etymology:
Middle English gendre, from Anglo-French genre, gendre, from Latin gener-, genus birth, race, kind, gender — more at kinDate:
14th century
1 a: a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms b: membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c: an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass

2 a: sex <the feminine gender> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
Notice Definition 2a, sex. Also take note of the bolded text from 2b. Gender , when applied to individuals refers to their sex regardless of whether we are talking behvior or actual physical sexes. IT is still intristically linked to their sex.

Quote:
They've demonstrated abilities to shift mass as well as bodily configuration almost instantaneously, which is somewhat different -- there's no pattern of, say, Wheelie or Bumblebee getting taller in line in line with Rodimus Prime, and Alpha Trion's concession to age is to glue something onto his chin.
That is because we only see a few years of their life. And Alpha Trion does show growth and aging, including the growth of his beard over time. He isn't attaching a longer beard every few millenia. He shows actual aging over time. Also, the lithonina and Decepticon children also show actiual growth, not of the individuals over time, but collectively by showing different children at different ages. We see then from small toddlers to prepubescents, to teenagers, to adults. That shows physical growth.

Quote:
Behaviour is implicit -- and indeed specifically introduced as programming.
All behavior in a life form is "programmed" in our genes and serves a physiological function geared towards its survvial as individuals or as a species. Courtship exists only in sexually reproducing species because it is through courtship that members of a species select mates for the purpose of propagating the species. Nonsexual life forms don't engage in courtship. They don't compete for mates. They don't marry or have families. Transformers do all of that.

Quote:
If enough people spend time thinking about these hypothesised sexual off-screen interactions, maybe Jim'll have a viable book...
There is nothing "hypothetical" about it. It is implicit in what we see on screen that this does occur offscreen. Does that mean all Transformers are born from such unions? No. Canon specifically shows us examples of Trasnformers who were indeed created or built from protoforms and then imnbued with a spark, all of whome emerge as fully formed adults. By the same token though, we also see Transformers who were born from parents, Transformers who start out as small children and have mothers and fathers. That means that Transformers have the capability to reproduce naturally through some sexual means, as well as through artificial means through the use of protoforms imbued with a spark, just as we can reproduce through sex as well as now being capable of artificial insemination and the developing technologies of genetic engineering and cloning. Just because Transformers can create new life by building them from protoforms, does not mean that they can't also bring forth offspring from the union of males and females; especially since they are males and females. That alone is implicit of sexually reproductive capability. When you add in everything else—courtship, romantic rivalries, marriage, children— it becomes obvious that they do have that capability just like any other life form.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 10:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Clogs
'Romance' is not necessarily 'courtship'.

Courtship behaviour in animals is meant to check the breeding status of the other, prove you're hot and available, and may also have implications in the ability to provide for offspring. OK - all those underscore human behaviour; we are animals, after all. But 'romance' is something else. It's what gets couples up the aisle (or the equivalent, in these enlightened times hem-hem).

And, before you go there: yes, some species mate for life. Saves all that time and effort next breeding season.

And it all has BA to do with giant alien mechanisms.
Actually romance is courtship. When we see a menber of the opposite sex, instinctually we are looking at whether or not we see them as prospective mates. We are sizing them up to determine their phyisical health and compatibility, both emotionally, and genetically. In other words, we are subconsciously asking, "Would that individual produce strong, healthy offspring with me if we mated." Deep down, that is what is going on. The emotional aspects and the rituals we engage in are a direct result of that. Marriage binds two mates together for the primary purpose of raisng any resulting children because both parents are necessary to do so, given the length of time it takes for a human child to grow up. Not all species have both parents involved in the raisng of offspring, but many do mate for life, as you yourself said, and that is what marriage is. Marriage is the bonding of two mates for life so that both can help raise the offspring. Once again, it all comes down to sexual reproduction. Without sexual reproduction, none of thes activities would even exist.
 

Last edited by Tramp; 2007-12-29 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 2007-12-29, 10:17 PM   #28
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Moving the goalposts is not how you 'win' a debate.

Face it, Tramp, you lose. :P
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 10:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
Moving the goalposts is not how you 'win' a debate.

Face it, Tramp, you lose. :P
Excuse me? "Moving the goal posts?" I am giving solid facts, both scientific and canon. We don't need to see a male and female engaged in actual interocurse to know that they can reproduce sexually. There is plenty of evidence of the specific activities intrisrically and insepreably linked to sexual reproduction, as well as the fact of their having distinct and specific sexes, which makes it obvious of that capability. We see them being males and females. We see them engaged in courtship. We see them marrying. We see them having children, being mothers and fathers. All of this is inseprably linked to sexual reproduction in a life form. It is implicit evidence of sexual reproduction in the Transformer species.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 10:28 PM   #30
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No you're not, you're engaging in a logical fallacy. You're saying that since 'A + B = 3' that must mean that A must equal '1' and B must equal '2'. It could be a possibility, but there's no specific proof that this is the case.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 10:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by TFVanguard
No you're not, you're engaging in a logical fallacy. You're saying that since 'A + B = 3' that must mean that A must equal '1' and B must equal '2'. It could be a possibility, but there's no specific proof that this is the case.
No Vangard, that is not what Im am doing, and you know it. All ife has specific requirements in order for the species to survive. among those requirements ois the ability to self-proagate the species. The need to procreate and thus pass on its genes to the next generation is essential to life no matter what form it takes. Complex life, like us and other plants and animals need to reproduce sexually to ensure genetic diversity within the species. Without that we are too suseptible to a disease which could wipe out the species as a whole. On top of that, romance, AKA courtship, marriage, romantic rivalries are all intristically and inseprably linked to sexually reproducing species because fo the functions they serve, which is the selection of mates for reproduction. Can you name one real asxeually reproducing species which engages in these activities? Of course not, because they don't exist. Only sexually reproducing species engage in these activities. Also, only sexually reproducing species have genders. Only sexually reproducing species have sexes. Only sexually reproducing species have males and females. Asexual life forms don't. Once again, it serves no purpose for them to do so. Sexes are inseperably linked to sexual reproduction. "Male" is the sex which fertilizes the female. "Female" is the sex which bears young or produces eggs which are fertilized by the male. You can't be male or female without sexual reproduction. It is impossible.

The examples we see of those Transformers who were clearly built from protoforms (or parts) and imbued with a spark, were all created as fully formed adults. Not one of them was created as a small child. It wouldn't make sense to do so since they were created to fill out their respecive side's army. Not one of them has a mother and father. None of them have parents. All of the examples we see of actual Transformer children have parents. They have mothers and fathers. Wheelie is specifically referred to as a child, one who had a mother and father. The Lithonians have small children. They are mothers and fathers. The Decepticons from Victory are mothers and fathers of small children as well, and we see these children. If you want, I can post pictures of them.
Therefore, there is no "logical fallacy" here. There is clear evidence of sexual reproductive capability among Transformers. Everything we see regarding gender, romance, marriage, children is clear and intristically and sinseprably linked to sexual reprocudive capability. Without that capability, none of these things would be a part of the Transformers. Without sexual reprouctive capability, they wopuld not be male or femnale. They wopuld not engage in romance or marriage. They would not be mothers and fathers. None of that would exist among the Transformers. That is no fallacy. That is fact.
 
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Old 2007-12-29, 11:02 PM   #32
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Oh God, I didn't know this would turn into a full-fledged DEBATE! I don't have anything to add to this. All I see is a book full of "sexy" pinups of femmes both human and TF, and nothing more. None of this scientific babble you people are going on about.
 

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Old 2007-12-29, 11:17 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sunstreaker2
Oh God, I didn't know this would turn into a full-fledged DEBATE! I don't have anything to add to this. All I see is a book full of "sexy" pinups of femmes both human and TF, and nothing more. None of this scientific babble you people are going on about.
I wasn't looking to get into a full-fledged debate, they sometimes just happen.
 
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Old 2007-12-30, 12:20 AM   #34
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Why does every damn thread need to have a f***ing debate!? I think all this arguing s*** needs it's own forum so that threads can remain on topic. Anyone else see the need for a Debate Forum, or is there going to be an argument about that too?
 


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Old 2007-12-30, 12:27 AM   #35
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I blame Tramp. He wants to 'win' so badly.
 
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Old 2007-12-30, 12:30 AM   #36
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Don't blaime me. I specifically said from the beginning I didn't want to debate the subject. That doesn't mean I won't defend my position though.
 
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Old 2007-12-30, 12:35 AM   #37
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*facepalm*

What the f*** do you guys think you are doing right now by just blaming each other?




Ah screw it.
 


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Old 2007-12-30, 12:36 AM   #38
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He paid for the full half hour.
 
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Old 2007-12-30, 12:40 AM   #39
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ROFLMAO!!!!!
Maju, debates will always happen because people don't always agree, which is fine as long as those debates don't become personal. I think we can all agree on that.
 
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Old 2007-12-30, 12:51 AM   #40
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Quote:
The language imparts masculine or feminin characteristics to those objects.
Quote:
the "gender" of a word is mainly applied based upon the sex of the individual speaking or being referred to.
Make up your mind, or at least stop prevaricating on a subject you appear to have little or no knowledge of.

Quote:
No, because these behaviors have been engaged in by the Transformers since the very begining, not just since they met Humans.
The Quintessons built and sold robots to other species, programming them with behaviour suitable for those tasks. There's no suggestion that this programmed behaviour was modelled on humans specifically, nor did I or others claim so. I realise you probably find it easier to argue strawmen, but again, stop making stuff up and trying to pass it off as fact.

Quote:
Canon also says that they have genetic code.
Most continuities do not mention genetic code.

Quote:
Transformers are male or female, not masculine or feminine.
In most continuities, Transformers exhibit male or female behaviour (note: adjectival use of 'male' and 'female') -- they do not exhibit production of gametes (requisite for noun use, and pertaining to biological classification.) "A male Transformer" is not the same thing as "a Transformer who is a male".

Quote:
He isn't attaching a longer beard every few millenia.
Gosh, it's almost as if you're claiming to be in the story, with this wealth of off-screen information you're surprising us with...

Quote:
That shows physical growth.
It shows a snapshot of time, and that in Lithonian culture there are robots of a variety of sizes. You can read into this, and apparently have been quite extensively.

Quote:
Courtship exists only in sexually reproducing species
Courtship is a pattern of behaviour, and you don't have any species with human-or-greater intelligence for comparison. You certainly don't have any machine intelligences to observe and see whether they court for companionship. If you define courtship to be things that only species that are sexually-reproducing do, courtship only exists in sexually-reproducing species (which is what Vanguard's talking about with the logic, methinks.)

Quote:
It is implicit in what we see on screen that this does occur offscreen.
Implied... suggested... not shown... interesting way of dressing up the fact of something not being present in the story.

Quote:
By the same token though, we also see Transformers who were born from parents
Such as? Wheelie, for instance, has a couple of sources mentioning the existence of others he regards as parents, but isn't described as created by or from them. Even in human culture, being a parent is very much a role rather than necessarily implying biological offspring.

Anyway, it's interesting that by far the majority of TF creations we see involve a matrix, matrix flame, the Allspark, Quintessons, Vector Sigma, Wheeljack goofing off and putting shock troops together in his lab, re-activation of existing brain modules, etc. Gametes, metal growing in the same way as flesh, new life being formed from the fusion of two or more existing ones, and so on and so forth... rarely (if ever) get a look-in.

The entire galaxy doesn't speak English, either. Literary construct.
 
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