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Old 2008-07-22, 07:16 PM   #21
Cliffjumper
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Masterpiece sells to kids? I suspect as few spoilt brats did get marked-down 25th Anniversary Primes which were then destroyed, but Masterpiece is aimed at exactly the same market as SoC - 20s - 30s collectors who appreciate diecast, high-detail moulding and a sheaf of features. There probably is more money in SoC, but that's because it's a better-marketed product with a much better design crew, with a company that understands the market properly. If MP is pitched at kids, well, that's moronic, basically - they wouldn't like the complexity of the designs, and parents wouldn't spring for a $150 toy of a character avaliable for $10 in a vaguely similar incarnation (I believe MP Convoy came out at roughly the same time as the Robot Masters version, for instance).

Add into that that the designs of the figures seem far from solid, and the near-legendary lack of quality control from Takara - a well-designed figure should not have parts that unintentionally pop off, even if they do pop back on again. That's sloppy work. All three designs basically fail Occam's Razor - there's no reason for the transformations to be so complicated. This is another area where SoC scores hugely over MP - the original designs have been refined and cleaned up with modern technology and an eye on the collector's market, but no-one's tried to reinvent the wheel for no apparent reason. Design-wise, Classics has basically destroyed MP, on much less money.

Fact remains Takara went out and deliberately designed that head. They can release all the recolours they want (not that "Screamer isn't the only one" is any sort of defence), but promoting them as new releases (there have been, what, three MP moulds now? I'm mildly surprised Megatron made the cut, considering the lack of recolour potential) is basically pathetic - there's no reason Starscream, Skywarp and Thundercracker couldn't have been released near-simultaneously, but they've got spread out to disguise the fact Takara don't know how to handle the line, and that there are only a handful of Transformers capable of supporting such an expensive penis substitute of a toy.
 
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Old 2008-07-22, 07:24 PM   #22
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I saw kids buy up the reissue of 20th anniversary Prime at Books A Million, and I bet they are also destroyed by now too. Kids'll get the MP toys no matter what the cost of them, as long as there is a doting parent to buy the toy. As Cliffy said, and I am sure I have said too, for the money the toy should be spectacular and near immaculate to target it's intended age group, us the collectors, and not be a PoS in terms of quality of materials in particular, and stability. I gave up on Hasbro and Takara producing more unique molds for Alt/BT line, and they have thusly been replaced with Classics 2.0 (which from Sunstreaker and Prowl molds, aren't too shabby). Whoever is running R & D at Takara/Hasbro really doesn't care about satisfying a specific group, as long as people pay the money to buy the said product, then it can be the crappiest quality imaginable, but the factor in it all are children who really don't care for the most part - as long as they have their toy then that's all that matters.
 
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Old 2008-07-22, 07:48 PM   #23
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Aye, part of the problem with the MP series is that, well, Takara have little else. SoC is no doubt partly funded by Bandai's myriad other properties - i.e. them being a successful toy company. Takara need to concentrate on making Transformers a genuine, consistent success in Japan before they put together an assault on the adult collectors' market - I doubt a company with their recent history is particularly appealing to design staff, for one. As it is, they've gone into MP badly prepared, resulting in everything being done by halves (MP Magnus is probably the absolute peak of desparation - a recolour that doesn't truly resemble the character, and looks awful to boot... possibly matched by the reissuing-Convoy-with-a-trailer thing - tip for marketing to collectors: try not to **** said collectors over in such a blatant way) - flimsy, needlessly complicated figures. They've basically bitten off far more than they can chew...

The need to provide extra articulation and more realism on either form shouldn't compromise the design (most SoC releases transform/combine/whatever in near-enough the same fashion as the original) to the extent it has with Masterpiece. The MP toys should be no-brainers, same toy you had as a kid but with added articulation and detail. We should all want every single one. If they're charging that much for a toy it should be, well, a masterpiece, not "Hmmm, I think I prefer the Classics version". If they're not up to it for whatever reason, they shouldn't be doing it.

Also re: the cost of engineering, I think Bandai have to renegotiate the license for each figure with the studio who made the TV series (Toei, Ashi etc.), as they don't actually own many of the designs outright - they were co-developed with the various studios to produce on-screen characters that closely resembled the toys (apparently this might cause a few problems if they get onto the Voltron toys) - Takara don't, as HasTak already own the licenses for the characters and their designs outright. So that's a chunk of money saved right there.
 
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Old 2008-07-23, 01:35 AM   #24
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I had this brainstorm earlier - they need to make MP's either with die cast metal parts, OR as a model kit. They've done the model kits before for TF's in Japan. I think it'd be a successful idea so that way if collectors don't like the flimsy wings , etc. of SC, TC, or SW, then we could take the model kits individual parts and make our MP's better through casting methods. Modeling magazines offer the resources for a reasonable price.
The reason I thought of this was years ago I bought, on ebay from China, a Masterpiece 1/90th Sazabi Mobil Suit from Banda's Gundam: Char's Counterattack line. The hip joint, once painting, melted into basically mush. I was quite p.o.'ed, and I wish I had known of the modelling magazines and thusly made a replacement hip ahead of time through their wax mold, and metal offered. That's why I am a plastic nazi when it comes to toys anymore, if the plastic seems flimsy from commentary and critiques of the said toy, I will refuse to buy it unless I know for sure the parts can be taken off easily that are of questionable durability.
I had one major problem even with MP Megs. Feet rusting, thin chicken legs, and then pricing. I wouldn't mind paying extra for a good product if certain key parts are die cast metal that ought to be diecast for common sense reasons.
Hells, I didn't even know the SoC lines had combiners, but when I saw the recent stuff I yearned for Tf's that looked that damned impressive! Even if their price tag seems a bit "whooooa" to me, detail and pride at least went into the toy. And now I am very hoping that Bandai will do a few of the old school, first through maybe fourth season, Power Ranger toys now in the SoC line. I want a very well done, articulated, White Tigerzord toy that can actually be posed and not be a brick (laughs).
 
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Old 2008-07-23, 04:09 PM   #25
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As yet, Soul of Chogokin hasn't covered any Super Sentai - not entirely sure why. Possibly the toys don't have the same credo with collectors (the originals are generally cheaper than their anime-based contemporaries), possibly Bandai have plans for some sort of Soul of Sentai line.

But yeh, Takara definitely need to have a look at Masterpiece. There's no real need for the figures to be much larger than the originals, and the size has led to many of the overcomplications.
 
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Old 2008-07-24, 11:33 AM   #26
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Are there really many kids that buy MP or SoC? I cant picture a kid (or moreso their parents) paying around US$150 for a toy that will probably wind up getting buried in the backyard along with the ratty old $10 Armada toys.
Actually, i do see some kids getting them, and when we had MP-02 a few years ago, as a target only product, They sold out on the first day. And not many were bought by adult collectors.

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I saw kids buy up the reissue of 20th anniversary Prime at Books A Million, and I bet they are also destroyed by now too. Kids'll get the MP toys no matter what the cost of them, as long as there is a doting parent to buy the toy. As Cliffy said, and I am sure I have said too, for the money the toy should be spectacular and near immaculate to target it's intended age group, us the collectors, and not be a PoS in terms of quality of materials in particular, and stability. I gave up on Hasbro and Takara producing more unique molds for Alt/BT line, and they have thusly been replaced with Classics 2.0 (which from Sunstreaker and Prowl molds, aren't too shabby). Whoever is running R & D at Takara/Hasbro really doesn't care about satisfying a specific group, as long as people pay the money to buy the said product, then it can be the crappiest quality imaginable, but the factor in it all are children who really don't care for the most part - as long as they have their toy then that's all that matters.
Wouldn't bet on the destroyed part. So far, only OP/UM have been available near me, and not many kids could destroy that. Unless it fell of the top of a shelf. Though they'd have to put it there in the first place.

Hasbro's R & D really does suck. Though i'd say QC is even worse.

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But yeh, Takara definitely need to have a look at Masterpiece. There's no real need for the figures to be much larger than the originals, and the size has led to many of the overcomplications.
Yeah, agree with you on that one. OP's chest compatment is so s***, and i haven't even bothered to try transforming my MP 03 Starscream. The wing breakage that's been reported a lot is also not really helping.
 
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Old 2008-07-24, 12:18 PM   #27
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Actually, i do see some kids getting them, and when we had MP-02 a few years ago, as a target only product, They sold out on the first day. And not many were bought by adult collectors.
And that'd be in the relevant Takara target market, rather than the unsold overstock hurriedly shipped off to various backwaters in the hope of getting rid of it when Takara's domestic target market told them to jog on, yeh?

The premium toy collecting market doesn't basically exist on the same scale in the West. Small quantities of overstock selling out in secondary markets doesn't really prove anything.
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 09:51 AM   #28
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I would consider Aust to be a western Country, and i didn't mean a target market, I meant the store, 'Target'.
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 02:46 PM   #29
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Christonabike.

Right, target market isn't a store, or a merchant's market, or anything. It's the market (meaning economic market) the toys are pitched at. The demographic, whatever. The People The Toys Are Intended To Sell To. I'm not particularly sure how much more I can break that down for you, but I have a feeling the answer is "not enough".

I consider Australia to be Western, in culture if not in location. how many specialist collector's figures are avaliable in Target? Answer - very few. The fast sale of a small amount of overstock that's been hurriedly repacked has very little to do with the bigger picture. Takara will have made a tiny amount on those figures once you consider they've been freighted across from Japan, and probably sold at a price unfavourable to the Japanese RRP. If you bung anything a bit different in a toystore chances are it'll go just through novelty, especially for something like TF...

If a TRU somewhere was to find a box of Action Masters in a storeroom somewhere, and sling them on the shelves now, they'd fly off, but it would hardly mean Mainframe, Roll-Out and Slicer are suddenly commercially successful toys. The aim of Masterpiece is not to shift the figures onto some secondary market shelf, with all the hassle that entails, in the hope they'll fly of the shelves. At the time, it was probably about the only thing Takara could do with the stock, meaning no Japanese retailers wanted the things. One piece of anecdotal evidence about a small shipment selling out in a market that's probably best described as tertiary does not make a line successful. When I was at school, quite a few people had Abega, but that didn't stop Godaikin being a major commercial failure...
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 03:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
Right, target market isn't a store, or a merchant's market, or anything. It's the market (meaning economic market) the toys are pitched at. The demographic, whatever. The People The Toys Are Intended To Sell To. I'm not particularly sure how much more I can break that down for you, but I have a feeling the answer is "not enough".
Seriously, do we have to go through the trading insults process again? Do you have to argue basically against everything? Even numbers and pure fact?

Okay, now that that's out, let's get to the point. I say something about a STORE. Then i get a reply about TARGET MARKETS/AUDIENCES. I am just putting out what happened in my area. You can say what applied in your area. But Arguing against the history of a product here where i am is just plain...(you can fill it in)

If you want proof, just look 3 posts above. The quote you have of me, is of a store's selling results, while you reply about target markets. Fact.

Seriously, that time about the life size statue of OP on BBTS, where you said i should read the lines, yeah, i shoulda, and i forgot. But if you know so much about reading, why don't you read my posts and respond on the same subject? You seem to be fine about it with Springer007.

And G******, i know about economics and markets. Are you now challenging my basic knowledge?


 
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Old 2008-07-25, 05:27 PM   #31
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What on Earth are you on about now?

The experience you had at one outlet with stock that only appeared there because it failed to sell in Japan is a self-defeating example. If Masterpiece Magnus, a Takara release, appealed to its' target market stickered examples wouldn't have been shipped to Australia. Fact.

Something selling out a limited shipment of overstock in Australia does not mean Masterpiece is appealing to its' target collectors market. Fact.

We'll ignore that anecdotal evidence isn't worth the paper it's written on, as it doesn't matter either way.

If you can't process that... well, I'm not really challenging your basic knowledge. I'd be mildly surprised if it exists in the first place. These aren't insults, these are observations.
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 06:48 PM   #32
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Relatively back on topic, Soul of Chogokin DOES have a Super Sentai figure, this one.

Of all the Takara MP moulds, I consider the F-15 to be the best because it's not awkward in size, has its own stand that can store all accessories and is [generally] not flimsy as Megatron. If only Thundercracker was darker and richer in colour...but I'll probably still get him. Did not get 3 of 3 releases of the mould so far to skip on the last one needed to get the set complete...
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 07:18 PM   #33
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Was Battle Fever J technically a Sentai though?
 
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Old 2008-07-25, 07:35 PM   #34
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Seriously, do we have to go through the trading insults process again? Do you have to argue basically against everything? Even numbers and pure fact?

Okay, now that that's out, let's get to the point. I say something about a STORE. Then i get a reply about TARGET MARKETS/AUDIENCES. I am just putting out what happened in my area. You can say what applied in your area. But Arguing against the history of a product here where i am is just plain...(you can fill it in)

If you want proof, just look 3 posts above. The quote you have of me, is of a store's selling results, while you reply about target markets. Fact.

Seriously, that time about the life size statue of OP on BBTS, where you said i should read the lines, yeah, i shoulda, and i forgot. But if you know so much about reading, why don't you read my posts and respond on the same subject? You seem to be fine about it with Springer007.

And G******, i know about economics and markets. Are you now challenging my basic knowledge?


I am getting pulled into this why? I have always said what I have said about the MP line being cheaply made. I bought Op back when he first came out, and he didn't have the discolored weapon (blue instead of black), and the nonsensical extras like a voice chip base... I've also always wanted more bang for my buck: like die cast parts that are essential to keep the figure staying in good condition, like die cast wings that are more durable, or for MP Magnus a trailer armor that works well.

Now back to the person who showed the Sentai figure, thanks it looks superb ! The reason the statue of Op was on BBTS is possibly because they wanted to sell it to a theatre company to use as a promotional item for the movie or just as an eye catcher. They had a life-size Silver Surfer statue at my local Malco theatre to promote the crappy Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer movie.
Moreover, the reason I feel me and Cliffy agree on this specific issue is because we want our money's worth when it comes to a "collector's item". And I also assume he is an uncle, father, etc. and he understands, like me, how parents act for children and how the markets work for things such as toys. Toys such as this "Masterpiece" line are not truly Masterpieces because they aren't as durable as they ought to be. People's reviews of the Mp line range from rusty feet on Megs, and unstable legs to how MP Seekers' wings break if they are bent one iota of a degree. Now ask yourself: "Is this really worth the money?" if a "collector's item" breaks this easily? I feel this is what Cliffy is trying to express and using SoC by Bandai as an example of how a Masterpiece figure should be. I'm just assuming that is what he is trying to get across.
 

Last edited by Springer007; 2008-07-25 at 07:47 PM.
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Old 2008-07-25, 08:11 PM   #35
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Always thought Battle Fever J was plain old tokusatsu (cf. Leopaldon/Leopardon), but I see Wikipedia has it listed as one. I'm open to correction, though, my knowledge of Super Sentai is largely limited to the ones picked up for Godaikin (Sun Vulcan through Bio Man). I'm guessing not many of the others have the following, or they're being held back, or there's higher demand for other figures, then

Aside from that, yeh, the point is the line should be better, and that it isn't is why it's consisted of three mixed-quality moulds across, what, seven, eight releases, and been of limited success domestically (illustrated by the fact stock was shipped over to Australia - this is a sign of FAIL, not WIN).

Treadshot, I have no particular grudge against you. You just have a habit of saying spectacularly stupid things. If anyone had bought up the red herring of sales at a certain store, based on such poor reasoning, I'd have pointed out how stupid they were. But you seem to be the only one struggling with the concept, so...
 
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Old 2008-07-26, 02:02 AM   #36
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Masterpiece sells to kids? I suspect as few spoilt brats did get marked-down 25th Anniversary Primes which were then destroyed...
With the exception of my godson not really being a brat, thats what happened to his. the Tires are gone and he is missing a foot. (DVD Prime, by the way)
 
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Old 2008-07-26, 02:58 AM   #37
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With the exception of my godson not really being a brat, thats what happened to his. the Tires are gone and he is missing a foot. (DVD Prime, by the way)
My nephew has wanted to play with my 20th anniversary Prime, but I won't because most of his tf toys are broken. And I tell him if he breaks it, he will be my "slave" until he can pay it off, that usually makes it clear no means no. Anymore, I am afraid to give him any TF toy, even the animated Megs I bought him, because they seem to be so fragile anymore. Or is it just me being paranoid?
 
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Old 2008-07-26, 07:08 AM   #38
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I am getting pulled into this why?
Yeah, sorry bout that. Just needed an example.

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(illustrated by the fact stock was shipped over to Australia - this is a sign of FAIL, not WIN).

Treadshot, I have no particular grudge against you. You just have a habit of saying spectacularly stupid things.
What's wrong with stating what happened round here? I just say what i saw, then i get a reply about me not knowing about markets/economics. I mean, i would've accepted something along the lines of: "That happened in insert place but it didn't happen here."

About the stock: I don't think either of us has actual hard evidence to prove that it was/n't excess stock. Let's just leave it at that, before another user has to sit through another ruined thread.

And if you don't understand why i'm saying you're insulting me, i think you should look at the response to my earlier post. Your last sentence may have been funny to you/ friends or some other people, but i don't really find it funny. Your challenging the fact that i have basic knowledge, whether you know you are or not. What you find as harmless may be just the thing to set off the ticking time bomb in someone else. Didn't everyone get taught this in primary school? Like, say, "don't say anything that could hurt someone/you will regret"?

Ever since day one on TFA, you've argued against everything i said. I feel i have let you have your opinion, but whenever i try to express my opinion, someone goes and insults me. Everyone else has allowed me to have my opinion, everyone else has treated me very nicely. Every other user i've met so far has had a DISCUSSION over a topic, but you have had to turn this into an argument every time. If you hadn't replied to my first post, this wouldn't have happened. And no, you can't blame me for the first post, because i'm allowed to speak my opinion. There's nothing against it in the FAQ, RULES, etc. Anyway, the dictionary clearly states that a moderator is: someone who mediates disputes and attempts to avoid violence. Yet someone is actually helping create a dispute. (Thanks to http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moderator for the definition, and wordnet)

Princeton:
1. Any substance used to slow down neutrons in nuclear reactors
2. In the Presbyterian church, the officer who presides over a synod or general assembly
3. Someone who presides over a forum or debate
4. Someone who mediates disputes and attempts to avoid violence


Come on, If you didn't realise, that i didn't like your way of reacting, then that PM i sen you way back when, should have been a wake up call. AND YET EVEN THAT PM WAS REPLIED WITH AN INSULTING COMMENT! JUST A ROUNDABOUT WAY OF SAYING THAT I WAS AN IDIOT AND A MORON!

(yeah, finally, i know)

Nah, i'd say you're not paranoid. Nothin totally foolproof when you're dealing with kids.

Might have to use your 'slave' excuse next time i'm stuck in a jam.

I sure hope MP TC loses hose spots, if he does, he'll have one more customer.
 
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Old 2008-07-26, 07:15 AM   #39
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First of all, Treadshot A1, if you have issues with Tom please handle them in an orderly fashion through the use of PMs. I will not have our news threads getting mucked up by arguments from either side. This needs to stop now in this thread between the two of you, lets please get back on topic, consider this a warning to all parties involved.

Now then, back on topic. Well I'll agree with Tom and Springer at this point in the thread. I know I'm coming into the discussion late, but to me the Masterpiece figures are anything but that. From what I've seen and heard they are tremendously easy to break, and no one can argue that their price is outrageous for the quality of the toy.

I was very impressed with the original Optimus when it came out here in America, it was actually the very toy that got me back into collecting Transformers again. Again as Springer stated I mean the first US release not the DVD version. However I hadn't bought a Transformer since I was a pre-teen prior to that purchase, so it was a very awesome figure to me at the time.

To this day I still feel that the original release was a decent figure and really have no issues with it as a standalone release, other than the price which was a contributing factor in my divorce from my ex-wife no doubt. However the following releases have been very lackluster in my eyes.

I did not purchase the original release of Starscream because I never really had the cash at the time, and then when I did I was well aware of all the stories of stress marks and broken wings from just one transformation. By the time the American release finally came out and was somewhat affordable I decided to take a chance and bought one, only to discover the stress marks on the figure's wings right out of the package. With only one transformation the stress marks turned into very substantial cracks in the plastic, which I am 100% sure if I ever transformed it back into jet mode they would snap right off. So essentially I'm left with a robot mode only Starscream figure at a rather expensive price. That is just not good business practices in my mind, and a child would have had a broken toy within minutes, as I exercised the greatest grace and ease in transforming the figure the one time I did.

Now I never owned Megs, but I've seen the pictures and heard the stories of how easy it breaks, and the price alone is enough to scare me away. The endless stream of repaints just begs for idiocy in my mind, I just cannot fathom why anyone would want or need so many different colours of the same exact figure with the same exact qc issues.

I see exactly what Tom is saying, Takara have really dropped the ball on this line and they have consistently provided us with figures that sell not because they are "masterpieces", but because certain kinds of "fans" will buy whatever they put out. To be truthfully successful on a large scale they would really need to reinvent the line, and rework either the price point, or the quality of the releases.
 
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Old 2008-07-26, 07:31 AM   #40
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What's wrong with stating what happened round here? I just say what i saw, then i get a reply about me not knowing about markets/economics. I mean, i would've accepted something along the lines of: "That happened in insert place but it didn't happen here."
That you intimated it was indicative of the line as whole.

Quote:
About the stock: I don't think either of us has actual hard evidence to prove that it was/n't excess stock. Let's just leave it at that, before another user has to sit through another ruined thread.
Erm, yeh, I do have proof. It was stickered Japanese stock. That means it was excess stock. Fact.


Quote:
Your challenging the fact that i have basic knowledge, whether you know you are or not.
When did I say I didn't know it? I'm saying it's not an insult, it's an observation. I'm saying you lack basic knowledge of this area, and that I'm not insulting you by pointing it out, simply because you do.

Everything else is hissy over-reaction, [removed]. If you stopped saying stupid things (like arguing that overstock isn't overstock despite being clearly so, or confusing the store Target and the phrase target market), I wouldn't have to point out how stupid you are.

This is your own fault, you've spouted inaccurate crap and you're getting called on it.

Incidentally, I'm not staff in this forum. And even if I was, having "Moderator" under my avatar doesn't mean I can't point out that you're talking ignorant bullshit. If it turns out that's actually inaccurate and I'm meant to leave tools to babble away about stuff they plainly know little or nothing about, I'd rather not be staff.

Can people please not encourage idiots to PM me as well? Ta.
 

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