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Old 2008-11-12, 10:33 PM   #21
secretcode
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Notabot's right on that one. There were very few baptisms in the Bible, Old and New Testaments. The main one was John the Baptist baptising Christ, Although for some reason people believe Christ then baptized John afterwards.
 


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Old 2008-11-13, 06:14 PM   #22
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Oops, yes J the B dipped Jesus and, yes, according to a Medieval story, Jesus then did same for John. John continued to do the deed until a young lady took off all her clothes and asked for his head, which, although it might sound interesting, was not A Good Thing.

(I put that down to having worked 8 hours 45 minutes without tea or dinner breaks, without food or drink and being thoroughly dissed off by the people who left me pulling arses out of the fire. Um, I'm supposed to do a 7 hour day and that was my third straight 8+ this week - and it's another one today! Explanation with added grump over.)
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 06:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay View Post
On behalf of a Mormon poster that PM'ed me, choose your words more carefully in the future, please.
Then invite him out to debate. I've neither flamed somebody nor made a sweeping prejuical comment about any group of people.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 08:48 PM   #24
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I had about 30 mins worth of responses typed up and my computer decided to BlueScreen, so I'll get to them in a bit. Also, Jetfire, I've already shown myself earlier in this thread as I got sick of hiding on the subject. The only thing I had a problem with your post of was the retard part, and considering most members opinions of me on this board, showing up to defend would have seemed to prove your point of the Retard thing.

(No, I'm NOT retarded, but still. Back on subject fer me)
 


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Old 2008-11-13, 09:03 PM   #25
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Well then, let me try this again, without Vista wanting to go suicidal on itself.

To Galvatron
Yeah. It's definately a respect issue, and not one of faith. Granted, had members followed the "No Holocaust Victims/No Celebrities" rules, none of this would have happened. Again- Too many submissions daily and it's really hard to screen that many at an efficent rate.

To Dalek
And honestly, I don't blame them for being pissed as it's undermining the victim's faith. Honestly, to sacrifice yourself in the name of your religion and beliefs is something noble indeed.

To Jetfire
It may not mean much to the dead, but it does for the most part put the family's mind at ease.

To Denyer
At first, I was going to comment negatively on the "Cult" comment, but then I remembered most religions may seem as cults in terms of practice/ritual.

To Rattrap (For the most part)
As far as consent, the names MUST BE submitted by family members so that families don't sue. If they do... well. I've no clue what would happen. I never heard of a case like that. On the subject of baptising young ones, it is believed that until the child is aware of the world's evils the baptism is more or less pointless (Which is why children are not allowed to be baptized until they are 8- living or dead) If they DO die before that, they are not considered in limbo as they had no awareness of said evils.

Any other questions?
 


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Old 2008-11-13, 09:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretcode View Post
To Dalek
And honestly, I don't blame them for being pissed as it's undermining the victim's faith. Honestly, to sacrifice yourself in the name of your religion and beliefs is something noble indeed.
I'd disagree with that bit as it makes it sound like they had a choice. Most of the Holocaust victims didn't sacrifice themselves for their beliefs. They were sacrificed by the Nazi's for their beliefs.
 
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Old 2008-11-13, 09:23 PM   #27
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True, but I was thinking in the way they did not denounce their faith and stood by it- Granted they probably wanted out of there, of course, but they didn't cast their religious beliefs aside- there were those that fought against it, but I have never heard of any that dropped the faith (Although if there are stories of that, I'd love to hear them (not sarcasm))
 


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Old 2008-11-13, 09:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretcode View Post
I had about 30 mins worth of responses typed up and my computer decided to BlueScreen, so I'll get to them in a bit. Also, Jetfire, I've already shown myself earlier in this thread as I got sick of hiding on the subject. The only thing I had a problem with your post of was the retard part, and considering most members opinions of me on this board, showing up to defend would have seemed to prove your point of the Retard thing.

(No, I'm NOT retarded, but still. Back on subject fer me)

I never said you were.

And never judge me by most members of the board. I've never laid into peoples religion before with a 7 year history here, I judge people on their actions and decisions and I've certainly been one of the more supportive of peoples religious convictions and thei reasoning behind it.



And you never feel a need to hind your beliefs, whether people believe them or not. I actually appear to have never read a post by other members of the board interacting with you. I have no idea what they feel.

However it's rather silly to criticise a post supporting their belief even if it critically disagrees with the actions however coarse the actions. Especially from somebody who has never perscuted or argued against a religion in 7 years of posting on this website. Surely you can tell that is hardly a sweeping statement nor one that is anti-religious? If you feel I'm unfair or out of order you can always make that clear to me publically or any PM rather than sneek behind my back on na issue where no rules are actually broken.

And frankly the mod in question frankly has no right in asking me to change my wording in future because somebody doesn't like it. I was neither flaming nor making negative sweeping statements that imply prejuice.

It not a mods job to send out warnings about posters who aren't breaking the rules just because somebody doesn't like their tone of voice. Especially when the poster in question has been a long part of the community and NEVER shown such behaviour. If fact my record of behaviour is much better than many of the current team of moderators . The action was overstepping the authory and responsibility the mod has which by design or fault is the mod demonstrating some abuse of their position.


However, back to the point, if some Mormons Breaking a massively important pack between religious' to anoit members of another religion when their families can easily be greatly offended is frankly stupid in my opinion, hence the comment. I don't judge the religion or people as retarded (which is not a literal reference) seeing as I was clearly refering to the article printed. however those taking part in this offensive behaviour are unjustified in what they do and as stated above done offensively and in bad taste even if the sentiment from their perspective is rather innocently well meaned.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 09:37 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretcode View Post
True, but I was thinking in the way they did not denounce their faith and stood by it- Granted they probably wanted out of there, of course, but they didn't cast their religious beliefs aside- there were those that fought against it, but I have never heard of any that dropped the faith (Although if there are stories of that, I'd love to hear them (not sarcasm))


I don't think they were given a choice to cast aside their beliefs or not. There was no choice, options or anything. Their extermination was mostly based on race, the nazi's after-all wrote literature against Christianity. Just a racist power acting out the worst possible nightmare.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 09:45 PM   #30
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<le sigh>

This is what he was responding to, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire View Post
I suspose it's the Mormon retards own little innocent way of showing respect or helping out or something. It can't mean anything to the dead, it's not disrespecting their dead bones or anything like that either. I can't see exactly how it's baptising, it's called baptising but it certainly isn't.
Then you say this, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire View Post
Then invite him out to debate. I've neither flamed somebody nor made a sweeping prejuical comment about any group of people.
And this, emphasis mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire View Post
I never said you were.

And never judge me by most members of the board. I've never laid into peoples religion before with a 7 year history here, I judge people on their actions and decisions and I've certainly been one of the more supportive of peoples religious convictions and thei reasoning behind it.
You may have well and good intentions, but they all come to naught with the phrase "Mormon retards."


Quote:
And frankly the mod in question frankly has no right in asking me to change my wording in future because somebody doesn't like it. I was neither flaming nor making negative sweeping statements that imply prejuice.

It not a mods job to send out warnings about posters who aren't breaking the rules just because somebody doesn't like their tone of voice. Especially when the poster in question has been a long part of the community and NEVER shown such behaviour. If fact my record of behaviour is much better than many of the current team of moderators . The action was overstepping the authory and responsibility the mod has which by design or fault is the mod demonstrating some abuse of their position.
Asking you politely to not call a group of folk retarded at the request of another user (who has asked privately rather than making a massive public fuss, note) is not out of bounds.
 
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Old 2008-11-13, 09:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretcode View Post
At first, I was going to comment negatively on the "Cult" comment, but then I remembered most religions may seem as cults in terms of practice/ritual.
The principle definition (Princeton) of "cult" is actually "Followers of an exclusive system of religious*beliefs and practices"... it's just that more people view "cult" as a pejorative than "religion". Why anyone should have a hierarchy for groups of people who profess belief in supernatural entities I'm not sure, from this perspective, but I suppose there's "ours is real, yours isn't / you're actually addressing ours, you just don't know it / this lot aren't as dangerous as that lot / etc" analysis going on.

Quote:
to sacrifice yourself in the name of your religion and beliefs is something noble indeed
Some beliefs. For many of the missionaries killed over the centuries I'd choose different and much less flattering adjectives. It's preferable to die feeling that you've achieved something, and in some instances colonisation brought relative peace and stability, but it isn't necessary to claim instructional stories are literal truth in order to achieve either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay
not call a group of folk retarded
Whilst Dan is far from the clearest communicator, it does read as addressing the community leaders responsible for this practice rather than Mormons in general.

Me, I'd go with "wilfully ignorant" -- because people are unlikely to have faculties that genuinely limited that they wouldn't grasp they'd be offending a religion that fairly indisputably has far greater stake in the matter by continuing.
 
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Old 2008-11-13, 09:49 PM   #32
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I apologize to Clay for having him do that, as I had no time to explain things at the point (YAY KIDNEY INFECTION!)- I may have overreacted a bit on the retard line (little brother is severely autistic, 16 with a mind of a 2 year old.) Sorry to you too, Jetfire. Misunderstandings suck.

@Jetfire
Anyhoo- The Nazi regime was exactly as you called it, a power of the worst kind trying to make everything their way no matter whom it effects. I have more or less no idea what went on in those days, so pardon my scope of that timeframe's events.

Again, with the whole baptism affair, it's the members with zero respect of the others faith that is causing the issue. Hell, on Sunday we had to get into a big meeting because of that, and while I'm not allowed to give out all the details, processes are going to change due to this recent problem- mainly adding duties to people in the calling of Family History advisors.

@Denyer
More of a bad choice of words on my part then anything- believing you are making a difference is a great way I'd think, but I again I have limited knowledge of the Extermination Camps, etc. Religion is more or less taboo in this area if you aren't Christian (Not sure about a bit further south for Clay, but in Grayson Country we've had that problem with the Ten Commandments and whatnot) and our church has gone under a few problems because people claiming we don't believe in Christ- Despite, I don't know... The fact the church is called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" didn't seem to stop that.

@Clay
No offense, but I'm staying out of this mod-duty thing. Not my area of expertise.
 


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Last edited by secretcode; 2008-11-13 at 09:56 PM. Reason: Forgot Clay
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Old 2008-11-13, 10:44 PM   #33
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Shouldn't the mormons and the jewish leaders who suppose to be so interested in preventing another holocaust be trying to save people in Congo and Danfur which are becoming holocausts. Is it because it deals with black people, not their own.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 10:44 PM   #34
Jetfire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay View Post

You may have well and good intentions, but they all come to naught with the phrase "Mormon retards."
yeah. Like I might say 'Rigt wing retards'. It doesn't mean I consider all right wingers retards but those for example supporting a particluar course of action in relating to the contect of the discussion.

Quote:

Asking you politely to not call a group of folk retarded at the request of another user (who has asked privately rather than making a massive public fuss, note) is not out of bounds.
I didn't call a group of folk retarded. I didn't make any claims about mormons generally or give some sweeping statements about mormons. Reread my post and stop making such poor jumps in logic and acting as if you've taken a well reasoned action.

If you want me to clarify a point, feel free to do so but stop the passive-agressive overtly bossy heavy handed modding. To spell it out to you I was clearly calling the people in the article retarded. And I don't literally mean they are retarded but their actions are somewhat stupid and ignorant.
the justification you gave makes even less sense considering my entire previous posting history as well as the context of the discussion. Especially considering I had already given an 'anti-generalising groups' point in this thread before you wadded in. It is not your responsibility to tell anybody not breaking rules how to post even if a member doesn't like it.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 10:47 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denyer View Post


Whilst Dan is far from the clearest communicator, it does read as addressing the community leaders responsible for this practice rather than Mormons in general.
:yes: When me and Denyer agree, everybody who doesn't MUSt be wrong.

Quote:
Me, I'd go with "wilfully ignorant" -- because people are unlikely to have faculties that genuinely limited that they wouldn't grasp they'd be offending a religion that fairly indisputably has far greater stake in the matter by continuing.
Much my point I think.
 

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Old 2008-11-13, 10:57 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetfire View Post
It is not your responsibility to tell anybody not breaking rules how to post even if a member doesn't like it.
Actually, since the first line of the rules got changed to "don't be a twat" ages back, there's quite a lot of scope for people who're posting in order to get rises to be smacked down... and Clay is, in all honesty, much nicer than I am and inclined to try polite requests first. Yes, it is his role to keep some semblance of order and people from each other's throats.

I'd personally draw a line between retard, which has a specific meaning -- and doesn't apply to religion because disconnection from reality is perfectly normal if we sample the world population -- and retarded behaviour, which people can try to argue a case for. Saying "[subgroup] retards" is extremely likely to piss off anyone who's a member of [subgroup], easily avoidable, and rather lazy. Plus not everyone's been here since the year dot to be able to interpret all of the regulars.
 
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Old 2008-11-14, 04:03 AM   #37
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Jetfire raises a strong point* with his “right wing retards” comment. But I think it was an unfair generalization.




Note Singular
 


Grew up, mellowed out.
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Old 2008-11-14, 04:17 AM   #38
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Makes since in context now that I think about it...
 


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Old 2008-11-15, 04:46 AM   #39
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The problem with weird Mormons is that it makes regular everyday Mormons seem wired in comparison.

Especially when things like this happen.

http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=43538
 


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Old 2008-11-15, 05:04 AM   #40
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Alright. **** it. I've had enough of that story.

Thing is, it's not the main church. A group splintered off after the USA made polygamy illegal. The main church urges following the laws of the land. Getting pissed, they broke off and made their own church. Those people were sick, and the adults deserve everything that happens to them for doing that shit.

As for the normal/unnormal, as long as you stay out of Utah or Idaho you'll for the most part see normal ones, and not overzealous members.

EDIT: Reading over the thread, and seeing your "Mormon Theology" post, it's quite obvious you are one of those that'll believe anything you read, and things couldn't be farther from the truth.
 


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Last edited by secretcode; 2008-11-15 at 05:12 AM.
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