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Old 2008-11-22, 04:10 AM   #1
martyboy70
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Default Baby p-Im so angry I can taste it.

Basically I am asking the mods if I can post on this?
Im so angry/sad/frustrated/destroyed by this issue I want the other archivers to know about this but im not sure if Im allowed to post on such a heinous state of affairs.
Have all the info/quotes/timelines/real names and would hate for some of our US members to pass this by.
Let me know if i can/cant fill in the blanks please mods as I dont want to step into a minefield with my size 13(UK)14(US) Air Jordans and step on a Grue.
RIP Little guy xxxxx

In the words of Martin Luther King: “The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict.”
 

Loss of job. Will sell for food here.

Last edited by martyboy70; 2008-11-22 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 2008-11-22, 08:53 AM   #2
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I don't see why you can't rant on a shocking but legitimate news topic.
 

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Old 2008-11-22, 10:51 AM   #3
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Yeh, it's not exactly controversial, it's not like anyone would condone what happened. News topics don't always have to be balanced and rational, and as long as you're not grossly offending someone, there's no problem.
 
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Old 2008-11-22, 02:58 PM   #4
inflatable dalek
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Well first up I should say that I think working for social services is probably one of the most difficult and stressful jobs it's possible to do. Put someone in care who doesn't need it and your an interfering busybody part of the nanny state. Keep someone with the family where it turns out there is a care issue that was well hidden and you're a abject failure. The pressure and scrutiny they're under to do the job exactly right creates situations where it can be easy to make small mistakes that have large scale repercussions.

This isn't one of those times though. We're not talking about one person erring to far on the side of caution, we're talking about the systematic failure of a good half a dozen people to do their jobs to even the minimum standard- Including lest we forget a doctor who failed to spot a broken spine (and what must every other parent who's had their kid looked at by the same Doctor be going through now?). And then they try and shift the blame everywhere else despite this being the second time this has happened in two years. This is a rare case with no shades of grey to it, everyone involved deserves the sack, and it's a damn shame there's no way to bring criminal charges. But it even if it were possible the worst that could happen to them is as nothing as to what that child went through for his entire life because of their incompetence. And all that without me even starting on the parents. Between this and the ongoing court case into that Shannon Mathews businesses it's not been a good few weeks for British parenting.

There really does need to be a full and open investigation on a nationwide level into how the different councils operate their social services, if only to confirm this was a rare aberration rather than something that happens all the time which we don't ever hear about.

So yep, it's certainly a emotive subject, but I don't think a controversial one because I imagine we're all pretty much going to agree on this.

For non Brits [Warning: It is a very depressing story and best not read if your planning on having a cheerful few hours]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_P
 

Last edited by inflatable dalek; 2008-11-22 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 2008-11-22, 03:19 PM   #5
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Damn, am I the only one here that never heard of this? I only read the first two paragraphs and I'm already depressed. I don't understand how anyone could do that sort of thing.
 


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Old 2008-11-22, 05:31 PM   #6
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Wow. That's just disturbing and cold-blooded. Why did they keep allowing the mother to take back the child?

"Causing or allowing the death of a child"? They should be charged with murder.
 
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Old 2008-11-22, 05:48 PM   #7
inflatable dalek
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Originally Posted by RID Scourge View Post
"Causing or allowing the death of a child"? They should be charged with murder.

IIRC as its impossible to prove which one of the three delivered the killing blow neglect related charges are the only ones they can get a firm conviction on.

Apparently the Mother gave birth to another child whilst awaiting trial and tried to demand the right to see it...
 
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Old 2008-11-22, 05:52 PM   #8
martyboy70
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Yes its probably one of the worst things I have ever heard about.
There is an eyewitness account from someone who lived at the house where it happened here:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news...-Revealed.html

and this page details what the poor little guy had to suffer throughout his short and terrible life:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle1941714.ece

Both these articles are very distressing and I just want to warn you in advance they will upset you.

This was a dramatic failure by so many people that had numerous opportunities to save this little lads life time and time again and yet they chose to do nothing or were stopped from acting by procedures and management.
As Dalek mentioned this is the second time that something like this has happened in this council area(the houses both children lived in are only a few hundred metres apart) and lessons were supposed to be learned and mistakes that were made never repeated and yet 7 years later it was allowed to happen again.
We must ensure that Peters life was not for nothing and ensure that this can never happen in this country again.
His mother, her boyfriend and his brother(the lodger) must all receive the absolute maximum jail term that can be given out when they appear for sentencing next month.
 

Loss of job. Will sell for food here.
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Old 2008-11-22, 06:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
IIRC as its impossible to prove which one of the three delivered the killing blow neglect related charges are the only ones they can get a firm conviction on.

Apparently the Mother gave birth to another child whilst awaiting trial and tried to demand the right to see it...
I see. Though it's kind of a shame that killing blow is what determines murder as opposed to abuse. It was the combined effect of sustained injuries that led to the child's death. They all contributed to the death. Imo all three are murderers.
 
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Old 2008-11-22, 06:53 PM   #10
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Murder (in UK law) is a deliberate attempt to kill someone. If that was the charge, all they'd basically have to do is prove that they never intended to kill the poor thing (citing evidence such as many, many previous opportunities to do so) and the whole case could bog down. It's better to prosecute for something you can actually prove, and compound neglect/abuse charges, plus anything else that comes out in the trial, could well have an equal sentence.

Dalek summed my feelings about the incident up pretty much. Poor little sod.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 02:17 AM   #11
martyboy70
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This is a similar but seemingly more comprehensive timeline of little Peters tragically short life.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7735063.stm

One tiny piece of solace is taken from the fact that his only Christmas was spent in a place where he was safe and if not loved at least safe.
 

Loss of job. Will sell for food here.
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Old 2008-11-23, 04:21 AM   #12
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Rats will kill and eat their own young. Are they sure this wasn't a family of rats?

No? Humans, really?


 
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Well first up I should say that I think working for social services is probably one of the most difficult and stressful jobs it's possible to do. Put someone in care who doesn't need it and your an interfering busybody part of the nanny state. Keep someone with the family where it turns out there is a care issue that was well hidden and you're a abject failure. The pressure and scrutiny they're under to do the job exactly right creates situations where it can be easy to make small mistakes that have large scale repercussions.
As an organisation Social Services are terrible. A lot of weak individuals work for them but I don't blame individuals for the state of things. They are overworked, under trained don't have the authority they need. Saying that I dispare at the fact Social services do run away from difficult situations.

I known SS enforce a spoilt child to live in foster care because she didn't wnat to live with mum and ran to her grandparents one evening because her mum was making ehr stay in and do her GCSEs. I've known them to purposely avoid a case of children growing up almost feral and playing almost naked on their estate at midnight while mum kicked them out to entertain 'guests' because they are scared of enforcing anything with 'chav' families. I've know a case where social services refused to move 2 children away from their parents who are abusing them and just gaves excuses about how they will provide strategies for the the family to 'work out their problems' (all of this because teachers are often teenagers confidents and first point of trust and initate massive numbers of ss intervention) rather them reomver the poor kids into foster care.

So yes some people on Social Services are terrible individuals who are scared of the worst offenders and hold children of difficult families to a lower standard and actively bully ones they know they can bully I suspose to compensate for their cowardness in dealing with cases which matter most. Many other SS workers are mearly helpless given the scale of problems afronting them.




Quote:
This isn't one of those times though. We're not talking about one person erring to far on the side of caution, we're talking about the systematic failure of a good half a dozen people to do their jobs to even the minimum standard- Including lest we forget a doctor who failed to spot a broken spine (and what must every other parent who's had their kid looked at by the same Doctor be going through now?). And then they try and shift the blame everywhere else despite this being the second time this has happened in two years. This is a rare case with no shades of grey to it, everyone involved deserves the sack, and it's a damn shame there's no way to bring criminal charges. But it even if it were possible the worst that could happen to them is as nothing as to what that child went through for his entire life because of their incompetence. And all that without me even starting on the parents. Between this and the ongoing court case into that Shannon Mathews businesses it's not been a good few weeks for British parenting.
Sadly it is far from rare. The awful death related to it is however not the incompetencenor the abuse.

Quote:
There really does need to be a full and open investigation on a nationwide level into how the different councils operate their social services, if only to confirm this was a rare aberration rather than something that happens all the time which we don't ever hear about.

So yep, it's certainly a emotive subject, but I don't think a controversial one because I imagine we're all pretty much going to agree on this.

For non Brits [Warning: It is a very depressing story and best not read if your planning on having a cheerful few hours]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_P

Social services needs a massive overhaul as well as a doubling in size to ever serve society as society needs. However like education the government, despite having the economic resources for a decade or two won't pump serious money in because it isn't a war or a bank.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 08:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Clay View Post
Rats will kill and eat their own young. Are they sure this wasn't a family of rats?

No? Humans, really?

Rats will generally only do it when there are survival issues. Humans are capable of prolonged cruelity to their young without any need for it. I know which species is capable of sinking lower.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 10:28 AM   #15
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Rats will generally only do it when there are survival issues. Humans are capable of prolonged cruelity to their young without any need for it. I know which species is capable of sinking lower.
We agree on something. Humans are quite honestly one of the lowest forms of animals in many regards. This is one of them. Most animals act and react on a basis of survival and continuation of the race. Humans tend to be self destructive and counter productive in these regards, on average.

I would value the lives of rats higher than humans who act in the manner that these acted in. Sadly there are fewer and fewer humans that would elicit any feelings of compassion from me that I would show for a rat, children being a very well placed exception. I once had the pleasure of being very close to two rats that, on a daily basis, provided me better companionship and camaraderie than most humans I have known.

The worst possible crime in my mind is to harm an innocent child that has yet had the chance to become better than the average human. Children can teach us more than most of the adults who have so called wisdom, their very nature being that of instinct and natural urges not yet broken by society and/or religion.

I hope that if these idiots are found guilty and punished, that it is not by death, as death would be a far too lenient punishment on them. I will refrain from describing the punishment I would prescribe to them.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 10:40 AM   #16
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Id like to discuss another situation you guys if that is all right, its on the subject of neglect and it is something I would like to hear more news on....

In the past few weeks since Baby P has become a national incident more stories have come out about social services neglect one of which was this -

A teacher noticed one of her pupils getting more and more erratic and when she talked to the chilld she said that she thought her dad had killed her mum. Apparently standard practice for teachers is to contact social services to get it assessed before you can contact the police, she contacted numerous different social services people who all basically laughed over the phone, she contacted one last person who decided to phone the father, and the father said that the mother had left the family, ran of with someone she was having an affair with, after this the case was closed... BUT, the teacher noticed the child getting even worse and decided she needed to try again, eventually she found someone willing to reopen the case and visit the father, and then they referred the case to the police who went round and sure enough found the body of the little girls mother in the roof luggage box of the car.

If anyone knows bout this story could they give more details for me??


On the subject of Baby P, I find it disgusting; obviously, and despite being semi-anti-capital punishment (i feel it should be used in the most extreme cases, for the protection of society) I think these people are horrific enough scum that they all should fry.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 11:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by CounterPunch View Post

A teacher noticed one of her pupils getting more and more erratic and when she talked to the chilld she said that she thought her dad had killed her mum. Apparently standard practice for teachers is to contact social services to get it assessed before you can contact the police, she contacted numerous different social services people who all basically laughed over the phone, she contacted one last person who decided to phone the father, and the father said that the mother had left the family, ran of with someone she was having an affair with, after this the case was closed... BUT, the teacher noticed the child getting even worse and decided she needed to try again, eventually she found someone willing to reopen the case and visit the father, and then they referred the case to the police who went round and sure enough found the body of the little girls mother in the roof luggage box of the car.

If anyone knows bout this story could they give more details for me??
This one? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sussex/7736361.stm

Sadly these cases are not isolated but mearly the most tragic due to the outcome. Sadly what will happen is the government will pretend to help out Social services and give them either more bureauacy in place of great number of social workers to check over each cases. Thus ensure the services remain Overworked, job descriptions so useless that their are impudent if somebody is out of the office for a week and paperwork ensuring that Social Workers are useless, don't care or mearly pick off easy cases to target or bully an unnessecary result so they meet targets.

The social service really needs to have double the number of social workers and be closer to schools and the police. The Child Protection officer at a school should be able to initiate a social services or police investigation into any child related situation on demand if given reason to suspect.

In fact i think schools should be able to do this to a degree if they think a child isn't being parented well. Could potentially solve a lot of problems.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 11:45 AM   #18
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We agree on something. Humans are quite honestly one of the lowest forms of animals in many regards. This is one of them. Most animals act and react on a basis of survival and continuation of the race. Humans tend to be self destructive and counter productive in these regards, on average.
I'd say on average most human bings are wonderful people. Even in a busy news year over 99% of real people won't be featured in News leaving a massive slant to what the 1% get upto which is overwhlemingly negative.

Most people are decent people ranging from somebody who buys you a pint of beer when you are broke or feeling down to charity workers who dedicate their lives to helping others who they ahve no culture, religion or language in common even in dangerous places (Sadly like that woman in this article: http://www.independent.ie/world-news...n-1504217.html) or the responses and charitable donations to humanatarian crises in this world.

Quote:
I would value the lives of rats higher than humans who act in the manner that these acted in. Sadly there are fewer and fewer humans that would elicit any feelings of compassion from me that I would show for a rat, children being a very well placed exception. I once had the pleasure of being very close to two rats that, on a daily basis, provided me better companionship and camaraderie than most humans I have known.
That's sad unfortuantly. I've always been lucky I've always had a great set of friends if nothing else. Fantatsic peoiple who look after me if I need it via that poverbial pint when I have no money (Uni days quite often) to people giving me hours of their time to listen to my issues.

In fact I was arranging our yearly Christmas University reunion meal and I felt happy I could return an old favour by offering to pay for the meal of an old friend who has self-employed and is now basically living of part time bar ages because of the credit crunch.

Quote:
The worst possible crime in my mind is to harm an innocent child that has yet had the chance to become better than the average human. Children can teach us more than most of the adults who have so called wisdom, their very nature being that of instinct and natural urges not yet broken by society and/or religion.
Children can often be naughty too even when they know right from wrong. I find it counter productive to jump on politican like bandwaggons and say childen and specially innocent. Children of course have potential and their lack of life experience is sweet but Children can be bullys,a nd are often sneeky ones seeing as they rarely bully others in front of adults, and just as political in their friendship groups in their own little world.

Quote:
I hope that if these idiots are found guilty and punished, that it is not by death, as death would be a far too lenient punishment on them. I will refrain from describing the punishment I would prescribe to them.
No death penality in Britain so no worries there. I just hope the full force of the law is applied and more impoirtantly Social Servives and any related public services are reformed and given the funding they need to prevent these cases from occuring. And lets not forget the many awful cases of abuse or neglect which aren't noticed because they don't lead to somebodies death.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 12:45 PM   #19
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Children can often be naughty too even when they know right from wrong. I find it counter productive to jump on politican like bandwaggons and say childen and specially innocent. Children of course have potential and their lack of life experience is sweet but Children can be bullys,a nd are often sneeky ones seeing as they rarely bully others in front of adults, and just as political in their friendship groups in their own little world.
Children can be manipulative, yes. This falls right in line with what I'm saying about children being instinctual and following natural urges, just as all other animals do. Once they hit the age to start school, most start a downhill slide to becoming more and more conformist to what society tells them to be, or expects them to be. This is unfortunate. I do not believe in "right" and "wrong" and it must be very comforting to think in such absolute values. Children do not think this way until they are taught to think this way. We could all learn a lot from watching kids aged 2-6 in my opinion. They are, on average, masters of probability manipulation with little or no effort.

As far as your commenting that it is sad that I have enjoyed the companionship of rats over humans, I do not think it sad at all, but that I was fortunate to have spared myself the mental and emotionally draining exchanges with cookie cutter people that surrounded me.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 02:28 PM   #20
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Children can be manipulative, yes. This falls right in line with what I'm saying about children being instinctual and following natural urges, just as all other animals do. Once they hit the age to start school, most start a downhill slide to becoming more and more conformist to what society tells them to be, or expects them to be.
To some degree. It is also instinctive for people to fit pack mentalities. Children learn half of everything they will do during childhood.

Quote:
This is unfortunate. I do not believe in "right" and "wrong" and it must be very comforting to think in such absolute values. Children do not think this way until they are taught to think this way. We could all learn a lot from watching kids aged 2-6 in my opinion. They are, on average, masters of probability manipulation with little or no effort.
Actually no. Some are, some not. Manys kids change and become increasingly better or give it up. All behaviour is learned to some degree. A child won't be hugely manipulation without learning it's advantages successfully first by observation or trail and error. Most british schools have always taught kids to be individuals and the benefits of evaluating the situation and weighing up the facts. For example unlike the USA all religions are taught in RS and even the spectrum of different opinion in each religion or culture.

As for absolute values it is clear are are some. Not everything is black and white but not everything is shades of grey either. Some things are clearly and definitely wrong or right. Some things depend on context, the timing and situation, others on the individual cases as they crop up and of course somethings are always open to debate.

Quote:
As far as your commenting that it is sad that I have enjoyed the companionship of rats over humans, I do not think it sad at all, but that I was fortunate to have spared myself the mental and emotionally draining exchanges with cookie cutter people that surrounded me.
How do you mean cookie cutter people?
 

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