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Old 2008-11-23, 06:38 PM   #21
RID Scourge
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
Murder (in UK law) is a deliberate attempt to kill someone.
Ah. Over here I think that murder also covers situations where someone is killed as a result of an individual's attempts to harm the victim regardless of whether or not they intended the harm to be fatal. There's first degree where you plan it, and second degree where [I believe] you don't plan it but you end up murdering someone (be it a fit of rage or what have you). Might be other degrees. I'm not entirely sure.


All in all I wish they could be locked away for life.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 06:49 PM   #22
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To some degree. It is also instinctive for people to fit pack mentalities.
Herd mentality is largely a common practice, of this I must agree. Only those who break out from the herd become successful leaders in life, careers, and other avenues. There are quite frankly more lesser humans than greater ones.

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All behaviour is learned to some degree. A child won't be hugely manipulation without learning it's advantages successfully first by observation or trail and error.
Children are master magicians at only a few days old, if you take the stock definition of magick as.."The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will." A child learns at only a few days old that if he/she needs something all they must do is cry. This is much more advanced as a child matures of course, as children grow older they learn more and more how to get exactly what they want from not only their parents, but those around them. It is too bad the vast majority of people loose this ability as they "grow up". But I think you will find that anyone who has a degree of success in life, did not achieve it without subtle manipulation of other persons.

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Most british schools have always taught kids to be individuals and the benefits of evaluating the situation and weighing up the facts. For example unlike the USA all religions are taught in RS and even the spectrum of different opinion in each religion or culture.
This is very good I will agree. The more a person knows about each and every religion, the greater their understanding will be of the stock principles included in all of them. In my personal opinion all mainstream religions are primarily the same, and teach a form of forced masochism and conformity, while keeping the masses in opiate like control.

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How do you mean cookie cutter people?
I mean to say that some animals, my two rats included, have more personality than humans. I know very few humans that stand out from the herd and exhibit any bit of individualism, or stimulate me in any form of social context. I choose to not interact with people if the exchange is not equal, if I am providing stimulation to them and they are not to me, then they are nothing more than parasites. I am fortunate to have a few persons I am close to that do not fall into this category.
 

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Old 2008-11-23, 07:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RID Scourge View Post
Over here I think that murder also covers situations where someone is killed as a result of an individual's attempts to harm the victim regardless of whether or not they intended the harm to be fatal.
I'm not 100% on law, but I believe accidental killing of someone over here is manslaughter, with the voluntary and involuntary varieties. They could maybe go for the former (intentionally harming someone, it turns out to be fatal), but again the problem would be pining it on someone - I believe, though I haven't read much on it for the past couple of days - they've found the killing blow, but don't know who administered it. Only one person could have delivered it, and if they press for manslaughter at best they'd get one conviction, but more likely none due to the lack of evidence (which would most likely consist of the three shits pointing fingers at each other).

If, say, the mother broke down and confessed to the killing blow, the other two would be off as they definitely didn't commit manslaughter, and a fresh case for other charges would have to be put together. The charges that are on the table, with the nature of the crimes and the knowledge one of them killed the poor lad, means the judge can probably give them much the same sentence, but with a much stronger case based on solid evidence.

Then they go to jail, which'll be where the karma happens... child offenders don't have fun in prison, and it won't be a shock if any or all of the three are killed in there.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 07:57 PM   #24
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Then they go to jail, which'll be where the karma happens... child offenders don't have fun in prison, and it won't be a shock if any or all of the three are killed in there.
Still not a good enough punishment, but I hope that the parties responsible do suffer some punishment and do not get off.

I'm fairly certain that the way you describe manslaughter is the same way as it is here in the US as well.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 08:08 PM   #25
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Still not a good enough punishment
What is, though, for something like this? It's too late to really do anything about it now, only halfway decent option is to lock them away and make sure they don't ever have chance to hurt anyone else.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 09:17 PM   #26
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See this is where my opinion on capital punishment stands - Only if its 100% definite the person did it, only in cases such as the death of a child (*) or an unprovoked act of murder.

TBH I dont give a crap about the whole "they dont deserve to get off so light" the simple fact is, if theyre just in prison theyll be released one day, and if they get released then there is still a chance theyll reoffend, a risk which shouldnt be put upon society. And the whole "life should mean life" while being true, is just unfathomable, our prisons are desperately overcrowded as it is, imagine what it would be like if a percentage never got released.

* In cases such as this, where all 3 people are responsible for disgusting acts of abuse, but its unsure who delivered the killing blow they should all burn, ok 2 of them are innocent of it, but theyre just as responsible for the death of the baby, and their seeming lack of remorse ishorrifying, even if I was someone who caused some abuse to a child and never intended for it to go further I would beat the living crap out of the person responsible for breaking his spine when I would have found out.

But anyway, dont really want to turn this in to a discussion on capital punishment.

Its just said that when they are eventually charged they probably wont get that long.
 
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Old 2008-11-23, 09:28 PM   #27
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They are to be sentenced in December and IIRC the maximum sentence that they can receive is 14 years.
I think they must all get the maximum as anything less would not be justice for P and there would be a massive outcry.
Like Cliffy I do not think they will see out their sentences anyway as I will be amazed if any of them make it out of prison alive.
 

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Last edited by martyboy70; 2008-11-23 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 2008-11-24, 04:08 AM   #28
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What is, though, for something like this? It's too late to really do anything about it now, only halfway decent option is to lock them away and make sure they don't ever have chance to hurt anyone else.
My idea of punishment would involve the exact same thing that they are found guilty of being given to them daily until their body can no longer take it and they finally die. If someone abuses a child for 3 years, then they should be subjected to the same abuse, or something of an equal nature for an adult, for the same span of time or until death occurs.

I'm not opposed to capital punishment, just the way that it is handed out in the quickest, most painless manner. Death is the end of existence, not much of a punishment really. To be subjected to days, months, or years if it takes that long, of painful punishment would be a much more appropriate punishment.

Another method I would approve of is to allow any surviving family members of the victims of such crimes to administrate the punishment, in whatever manner they see fit to do so, to the guilty parties if they choose to do so. This would of course be on a voluntary basis only and not mandatory.
 

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Old 2008-11-24, 05:24 AM   #29
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That would involve dropping to their level, and actually carrying it out would train countless psychopaths. The main reason capital punishment is painless is because those carrying it out are good people.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 05:39 AM   #30
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So all the years the human race tortured and punished those convicted of crimes and heresies, we as a whole species were "bad people"? Becoming civilized as we have is just another word for domesticated or tamed.

Good and evil are highly subjective. If we get right down to it, what someone doesn't like is evil, and what they do is good. Its all about perspective really. I think we can all agree that what happened to this child was "bad", "wrong", maybe even "evil" depending on your perspective and theology views. However I would hardly classify punishing those responsible as "bad", "wrong", or "evil". The severity of the punishment should match the crime, bottom line in my book.

And I hardly think it would train people to be psychopaths, we do after all send people off to legally murder all the time in the name of politics, religion, and expanding territories. I don't think they all come back as psychopaths, if they did the christian cult wouldn't have lasted very long, as it produced an obscene amount of murders for a "good" cause without turning all those involved into psychopaths, again largely depending on your perspective of course.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 06:01 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
I'm not 100% on law, but I believe accidental killing of someone over here is manslaughter, with the voluntary and involuntary varieties. They could maybe go for the former (intentionally harming someone, it turns out to be fatal), but again the problem would be pining it on someone - I believe, though I haven't read much on it for the past couple of days - they've found the killing blow, but don't know who administered it.
Ah. I guess my question all in all is whether the killing blow was such that it caused the child to succumb to it on account of the cumulative effect of that and previous injuries or if it were a case of the killing blow being such that it would have been enough to kill the child even if he were healthy?

Either way it's a rather deplorable crime, made especially so by the child's own mother's involvement.

14 years may seem like a long time, but it's still light imo. Being killed in prison would only make it all the more lighter.

I'd like to see them locked in solitary for the rest of their natural life with nothing to do but reflect on why they're there. Maybe with a tape of a crying child played ad nauseum at random parts of the day just to drive them mad.

Chances are the boy would've lived past 42 (the combined total of their sentence) if they hadn't killed him so why should 14 years be all that's taken away from them?
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 06:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by RID Scourge View Post
I'd like to see them locked in solitary for the rest of their natural life with nothing to do but reflect on why they're there. Maybe with a tape of a crying child played ad nauseum at random parts of the day just to drive them mad.
That is a very admirable idea as well. Another alternative I would feel good about endorsing. I was thinking of this right after posting my last post. I wanted to add that physical pain and torture were not the only form I would agree on as appropriate punishment. Mental and psychological torture can be just as effective and painful. In addition to the taped recording, they could also hang pictures of the child all over their cell walls and have someone read the autopsy report to them in detail each day, as well as force them to watch video footage of people who were hurt by their crimes as they weep.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 02:11 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Kali View Post
So all the years the human race tortured and punished those convicted of crimes and heresies, we as a whole species were "bad people"? Becoming civilized as we have is just another word for domesticated or tamed.
Unenlightened would be a better word. "People did it before" is not really a valid argument, otherwise I'm entitled to club your skull in with a rock for not having the same opinion as me.

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And I hardly think it would train people to be psychopaths, we do after all send people off to legally murder all the time in the name of politics, religion, and expanding territories. I don't think they all come back as psychopaths, if they did the christian cult wouldn't have lasted very long, as it produced an obscene amount of murders for a "good" cause without turning all those involved into psychopaths, again largely depending on your perspective of course.
Wow, that's a massive red herring. There's a difference between training someone to be a soldier, and training someone to actually torture someone else in the name of the law. Granted, in past times the difference was negligible, but that's spectacularly irrelevant. To be honest, you'd only find psychopaths willing to actually perform the task (cue lots of empty posturing from some that they'd happily break a defenceless person's spine, with "Well, they did it" as some sort of excuse - if you're capable of this, you're no better than the abusers in the first place).

Short version 1: Not going to happen in my ****ing country. Any suggestion it would raise far too many problems, anyway - what do you do with a mass murderer? Kill and resurrect however many times?

Short version 2: Any particular reason it's necessary to drop to their level? Society should show these people it's better than them, not indulge in medieval eye-for-an-eye reprisals and other revenge fantasies.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 04:20 PM   #34
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Damn, am I the only one here that never heard of this? I only read the first two paragraphs and I'm already depressed. I don't understand how anyone could do that sort of thing.
You’re not alone.
This is terrible. What kind of world do we live in where the “most developed” nations allow these kinds of things to happen?

What was the official cause of death, his spinal injuries or neglect?
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Originally Posted by RID Scourge View Post
"Causing or allowing the death of a child"? They should be charged with murder.
Thank god for legal technicalities, so that criminals never have to see behind cell bars.
 


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Old 2008-11-24, 04:32 PM   #35
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Thank god for legal technicalities, so that criminals never have to see behind cell bars.
Because murder is the only offence you can be put in jail for. FACT.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 05:30 PM   #36
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This is terrible. What kind of world do we live in where the “most developed” nations allow these kinds of things to happen?
And yet, it happens many times every day at abortion clinics...
Not to derail the thread or belittle what happened to him, but why does nobody bat an eye when this happens to children in the womb? Location? Timing? It honestly baffles me. What happened to this child should never happen to anyone, no matter which side of the womb they're on.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 05:40 PM   #37
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So all the years the human race tortured [...] those convicted of crimes and heresies, we as a whole species were "bad people"?
Yes.

I don't have any qualms about killing of people I think deserve it, but don't particularly trust authorities to make those decisions and I'm not going to pretend revenge is moral. In a majority of circumstances, torture makes you as bad as the people you're ostensibly fighting. Simply killing may be a pragmatic and useful option; it's still not "good".

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I don't think they all come back as psychopaths, if they did the christian cult wouldn't have lasted very long, as it produced an obscene amount of murders for a "good" cause without turning all those involved into psychopaths,
Really? I'd suggest most people can rapidly become psycho/socio-paths; given the right few nudges, we're capable of justifying almost anything to ourselves. Violence without guilt isn't anything unusual -- even when premeditated. (Milgram's a fairly interesting read on this subject.)

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And yet, it happens many times every day at abortion clinics...
Not to derail the thread or belittle what happened to him, but why does nobody bat an eye when this happens to children in the womb? Location? Timing?
The stages of life being radically different progressions?

Whilst I adamantly disagree with sperm+egg=person and ditto for a good few stages/months after that, it doesn't baffle how people manage to equate embryonic nervous systems with romping toddlers. People are capable of ascribing personalities to inanimate objects, nevermind developing bundles of cells that if left long enough will result in an addition to the global tribe.
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 06:00 PM   #38
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[Milgram] was the one with the fake electrocutions, wasn't it? Funnily enough, more or less what I was thinking... it's amazing how far people will take things if they think authority's on their side.

The case against these three people is that of prolonged torture and abuse. Prolonged torture and abuse is what makes it so disgusting... so you respond with prolonged torture and abuse? That makes whoever carries the punishment out as disgusting as the original offenders, they're just allowed to do so because they're working for some sort of correctional institute... While undoubtedly evil people, they'd be just as defenceless as the baby was... The whole point is the good guys are meant to not be twats. Just because the bad guys are twats is no reason to go that way.

Let's follow that through to its' logical conclusion... what do you do with a murderer? You kill him, one for one. That just about works. Now... what do you do with, say, someone who kills ten children? No torture, nothing like that, he just walks up to them and machine-guns them. Kill him ten times? Bit impossible, so we'll just kill him once. Christ, he got off pretty lightly, really, got the same as the first bloke did for one. If you're going to murder someone, might as well go mental, get a dozen in. If you're going to harm your kid, go for a headshot rather than taking your time over it. Get away with it, kind of. Crime 1, Justice 0.

Or is this just for this specific case, which while horrifying is far from the worse thing humans have ever managed to do to each other, probably even in recent times... so where do we switch from actual justice to this sadistic role-reversal system? Someone want to draw up a list?
 
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Old 2008-11-24, 06:10 PM   #39
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And yet, it happens many times every day at abortion clinics...
Not to derail the thread or belittle what happened to him, but why does nobody bat an eye when this happens to children in the womb? Location? Timing? It honestly baffles me. What happened to this child should never happen to anyone, no matter which side of the womb they're on.
For the record I agree with you, but we can discuss this some other time.
 


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Old 2008-11-24, 06:15 PM   #40
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Because murder is the only offence you can be put in jail for. FACT.
You completely missed the point I tried to make.
 


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