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Old 2009-07-13, 10:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by borg72 View Post
i'm frankly amazed you even know this word exists (although you still seem to be utterly lacking in any clue about the 'previous' part)

if i might make a call for a ?

i re-watched the movie last night and made two very particular notes, one of them toy related(ish):

1: you can happily drop any attempt at shoe-horning 'the thirteen' in... jetfire is extremely categorical when he states that there were seven (and only seven) primes.

2. the arcee bikes... apparently not a 'hive mind'/triocon... the very first scene they are in, they are in a truck in shanghai being dropped off with a bunch of nest buggy things. its underneath the music/optimus intro, but she says 'we're ready' after being referred to as (possibly, it was hard to hear this bit) 'arcee team'.

i say this as it lends more credence to the toy names
Actually, as far as the Thirteen goes, the novelization and comic adaption, as well as Defiance all confirm that there were indeed Thirteen. The film only showed seven thus, it's possible to conclude that the other six may not have been on Earth. They probably didn't render all thirteen to save money. Also, Jetfire didn't say that there were "only" seven Primes. He simply only referred to seven of them in the movie.

As for the rest regarding Arcee's team, I agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
I'd think the major argument for the third bike not being Elita One would be that Elita One died in "Reign of Starscream".
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Originally Posted by Raze View Post
Since when did paying attention to things win arguments?
Maybe, maybe not. Orci has said that Bay wasn't paying much attention to the other comics, so who knows. Reign of Starscream is indeed meant to fall within movie continuity, and is still canon (obviously), but it doesn't really prevent Orci and Kurtzman (or any other writers) from deciding to bring Elita-1 in, if they so choose. They'd find a way to bring her back. The Titan comics where the Decepticons won the battle of Mission City, for instance, are a splinter continuity (obviously). Also, The destruction of the fake cube could possibly have restored the Sparks of those individuals to them. It's all just speculation at this point. Thus, I wouldn't count Elita-1 out yet. I do agree that she was "apparently" killed, but, as we've already seen, death isn't always permanent.
 
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Old 2009-07-13, 10:58 PM   #22
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Old 2009-07-13, 11:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tramp View Post
Actually, as far as the Thirteen goes, the novelization and comic adaption, as well as Defiance all confirm that there were indeed Thirteen. The film only showed seven thus, it's possible to conclude that the other six may not have been on Earth. They probably didn't render all thirteen to save money. Also, Jetfire didn't say that there were "only" seven Primes. He simply only referred to seven of them in the movie.
I wouldn't put too much faith in the moive adaptions or the comics. Just by going on the moive, the Fallen never was in a prison just going by the film. Also the adaptions did not have the final scrip.
 
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Old 2009-07-13, 11:41 PM   #24
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I wouldn't put too much faith in the moive adaptions or the comics. Just by going on the moive, the Fallen never was in a prison just going by the film. Also the adaptions did not have the final scrip.
Actually, yes, he was. He was imprisoned in that "chair", literally bound into it until Optimus was killed. The Adaptions may not have had the "final" script, but no adaptions or novelizations ever do. Movies are always "tweaked" up until nearly the very moment of their release. Things change at the drop of a hat in film. Books and comics can't do that because of the publication time.
 
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Old 2009-07-13, 11:55 PM   #25
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I don't read the comics or novels, so how was he bound to that chair until Prime died? If he was able to steal the matrix from the existing primes (his equals), what would bind him to furniture until the death of all those primes' descendants?
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 12:46 AM   #26
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I don't read the comics or novels, so how was he bound to that chair until Prime died? If he was able to steal the matrix from the existing primes (his equals), what would bind him to furniture until the death of all those primes' descendants?
That "Chair" was his sarcophagus. The other Primes sacrificed themselves in order to seal him into his sarcophagus and seal the Matrix away in a tomb of their own bodies after it became clear he was more powerful than they were. The Fallen wasn't able to steal the Matrix from them. That's why he couldn't activate the Sun Harvester in 17,000 BC. According to Defiance, and the comic adaption, he destroyed their sarcophagi, but was himself trapped within his own.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 11:33 AM   #27
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I don't even know why I'm doing this, but...

Tramp.

No.

You can't superimpose the prequels onto the movie like that. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Fallen is trapped in that chair. It is not his "sarcophagus". The whole sarcophagus thing didn't HAPPEN in the movie. In the comics, The Fallen destroyed his siblings and their sarcophagi, and wound up trapped in his. In the MOVIE, the other Primes destroyed THEMSELVES, turning themselves into the tomb, and the Fallen lived on, leading the Decepticons. In the comics, the Fallen's sarcophagus was unearthed in a dig on Cybertron. If he was just trapped in a chair, that couldn't HAPPEN in the movie, because they wouldn't be unearthing a relic, they'd be unearthing a GUY IN A CHAIR. "Defiance" just DOES NOT LINE UP with the movie - unless you start MAKING THINGS UP to explain the discrepancies.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 05:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
I don't even know why I'm doing this, but...

Tramp.

No.

You can't superimpose the prequels onto the movie like that. There is nothing in the movie that suggests the Fallen is trapped in that chair. It is not his "sarcophagus". The whole sarcophagus thing didn't HAPPEN in the movie. In the comics, The Fallen destroyed his siblings and their sarcophagi, and wound up trapped in his. In the MOVIE, the other Primes destroyed THEMSELVES, turning themselves into the tomb, and the Fallen lived on, leading the Decepticons. In the comics, the Fallen's sarcophagus was unearthed in a dig on Cybertron. If he was just trapped in a chair, that couldn't HAPPEN in the movie, because they wouldn't be unearthing a relic, they'd be unearthing a GUY IN A CHAIR. "Defiance" just DOES NOT LINE UP with the movie - unless you start MAKING THINGS UP to explain the discrepancies.
Chris, yes, you can superimpose them because they're still part of the same continuity. The novelization and comic adaption also both say that he was trapped in his "chair" until Prime's death. The movie itself shows him bound into it. Definance also shows that The Fallen's Sarcophagus was loaded onto the Nemesis, which is where The Fallen is located in the movie—on board the Nemesis. The only real major difference between the movie and novelization and comic adaption in regards to The Fallen is that in the latter, The Fallen was trapped until the Sun Harvester was found, thus not making his appearance until the Battle on the Pyramids. The movie shows him trapped until Prime is slain. The moment Optimus is slain, The Fallen breaks free form his bindings. Thus, I conclude that the "chair" is The Fallen's open sarcophagus into which he is still bound until Optimus Prime—the last Prime—is killed.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 06:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp
because they're still part of the same continuity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tramp
Thus, I conclude
Movie + tie-in comics = a continuity.
Movie + tie-in novels = a continuity.
Movie + tie-in comics + tie-in novels = a continuity.
Movie storybook = a continuity.
Movie alone = a continuity.
Etc.

Anything that doesn't happen in the movie doesn't happen in the movie.

A version of movie events takes place in the movie comics continuity.

Everyone else: place your bets now. Time until, permanency, etc.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 06:44 PM   #30
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Except that the sarcophagus was not actually a literal, physical stone sarcophagus that the Fallen was trapped inside. He wasn't sitting inside a stone box - the thing was a flat plane not even remotely big enough to contain him. He was trapped outside of our dimension - we see shots from his perspective in the prequel comics, and he's amid a sea of fire looking out through the triangular shape of the relic. And in the novel adaptation, Megatron communicates with him through tiny mechanisms that rise out of the ship's deck and form an image of the Fallen's head, because he's not physically "there".

Whether you want to say he was trapped in the chair or not (and I will concede, it's *possible* that's the intention of the visuals in the movie, but it's purely an inference from the fact that he decides to stand up after Prime dies - nothing openly says its because Prime dies that he CAN stand up), Defiance *can't* have happened as seen, because there's no sarcophagus to have been dug up on Cybertron - there's just a guy in a chair. They're NOT properly the same continuity, because they CAN'T be - the comics and the movies each have a different number of Primes, disagreeing for different reasons, with their enemy trapped in different ways.

(You know, I'm given pause to wonder, is THIS why the UK comic decided not to reprint Defiance? Because from the one issue we've had so far, we've only seen the Fallen's hand... but he seems to be sitting in his chair, as in the film. I wonder if the disconnect between Defiance and this more movie-correct version is the reason they chose not to print it...)
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 07:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
Except that the sarcophagus was not actually a literal, physical stone sarcophagus that the Fallen was trapped inside. He wasn't sitting inside a stone box - the thing was a flat plane not even remotely big enough to contain him. He was trapped outside of our dimension - we see shots from his perspective in the prequel comics, and he's amid a sea of fire looking out through the triangular shape of the relic. And in the novel adaptation, Megatron communicates with him through tiny mechanisms that rise out of the ship's deck and form an image of the Fallen's head, because he's not physically "there".

Whether you want to say he was trapped in the chair or not (and I will concede, it's *possible* that's the intention of the visuals in the movie, but it's purely an inference from the fact that he decides to stand up after Prime dies - nothing openly says its because Prime dies that he CAN stand up), Defiance *can't* have happened as seen, because there's no sarcophagus to have been dug up on Cybertron - there's just a guy in a chair. They're NOT properly the same continuity, because they CAN'T be - the comics and the movies each have a different number of Primes, disagreeing for different reasons, with their enemy trapped in different ways.

(You know, I'm given pause to wonder, is THIS why the UK comic decided not to reprint Defiance? Because from the one issue we've had so far, we've only seen the Fallen's hand... but he seems to be sitting in his chair, as in the film. I wonder if the disconnect between Defiance and this more movie-correct version is the reason they chose not to print it...)
Chris, he was literally bound into that "chair". He was wrapped in straps and hoses, bindings, and who knows what else. As for Defiance, yes, it is in the same continuity. The visual depiction of the sarcophagus may or my not be different, but that doens't change anything. That's just artist's interpretation. Also, The Fallen's sarcophagus was indeed dug up on Cybertron. It was the only one they found still intact. In both Defiance and the movie, as well as the other adaptations of the movie, The Fallen's sarcophagus/"chair" was on the Nemesis having come from Cybertron. He was not trapped on Earth. There is no irreconcilable contradiction. The intent is clear, the sarcophagus and "chair" are one and the same, but the artists of Defiance and the comic adaption didn't have a final reference of what the sarcophagus would look like, so they had to come up with one. They're still part of the same continuity. It is no different than any other adaption of a movie franchise, such as Star Wars. Officially, the novelizations and comic adaptions of those fulms are also part of the exact same continuity as the movies they're adaptions of, even though there are some discrepencies. The films are considered of a "higher level" of canon in regards to any contradictions, but they are all part of the same exact continuity, not splinter continuities. The novelizations and comic adaptions are the same thing. They are interpretations of the same exact story told from a different perspective based upon the same exact source material. The differences are only because the film wasn't finalized when these adaption began production. Over all though, they are the same story. They are the same continuity.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 07:02 PM   #32
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Reading debates about Transformers "continuity" always makes me feel ... something. Not quite sure what. At least we're just talking about only movie continuity here and not some grand unification of the franchise. So Denyer was spot on ... what happens, happens.

Though it would be nice if Bey etceteras could spend a little time to be on the same page, so to speak, in their own iteration of Transformers.
 

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Old 2009-07-14, 07:05 PM   #33
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Chris, he was literally bound into that "chair". He was wrapped in straps and hoses, bindings, and who knows what else. As for Defiance, yes, it is in the same continuity. The visual depiction of the sarcophagus may or my not be different, but that doens't change anything. That's just artist's interpretation. Also, The Fallen's sarcophagus was indeed dug up on Cybertron. It was the only one they found still intact. In both Defiance and the movie, as well as the other adaptations of the movie, The Fallen's sarcophagus/"chair" was on the Nemesis having come from Cybertron. He was not trapped on Earth. There is no irreconcilable contradiction. The intent is clear, the sarcophagus and "chair" are one and the same, but the artists of Defiance and the comic adaption didn't have a final reference of what the sarcophagus would look like, so they had to come up with one. They're still part of the same continuity. It is no different than any other adaption of a movie franchise, such as Star Wars. Officially, the novelizations and comic adaptions of those fulms are also part of the exact same continuity as the movies they're adaptions of, even though there are some discrepencies. The films are considered of a "higher level" of canon in regards to any contradictions, but they are all part of the same exact continuity, not splinter continuities. The novelizations and comic adaptions are the same thing. They are interpretations of the same exact story told from a different perspective based upon the same exact source material. The differences are only because the film wasn't finalized when these adaption began production. Over all though, they are the same story. They are the same continuity.
Okay, that's it, I'm done. I'm not even reading all of that. Can't do it. Don't know why I bothered. See ya. Woop-woop. Outty.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 07:07 PM   #34
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Reading debates about Transformers "continuity" always makes me feel ... something. Not quite sure what. At least we're just talking about only movie continuity here and not some grand unification of the franchise. So Denyer was spot on ... what happens, happens.

Though it would be nice if Bey etceteras could spend a little time to be on the same page, so to speak, in their own iteration of Transformers.
There are always going to be discrepancies between a movie and adaptions of that movie becuase the adaptions are being written and produced at the same time as the movie is being filmed. Since movies evolve during the filming process, and authors,, artists, and publishers of the adaptions have such long lead times, they can't evolve along with the film itself, but have to work with usually earlier drafts of the scripts or screenplays rather than the final cut of the film. It's just the nature of the beast. The primary goal of a novelization or adaption is to expend upon what we see in the film itself. Thus, the intent is that these are all part of the same story in the same continuity, not alternate continuities.
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 07:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
(You know, I'm given pause to wonder, is THIS why the UK comic decided not to reprint Defiance? Because from the one issue we've had so far, we've only seen the Fallen's hand... but he seems to be sitting in his chair, as in the film. I wonder if the disconnect between Defiance and this more movie-correct version is the reason they chose not to print it...)

Now there's a thought, I was wondering if it was a case of them not doing any of the IDW movie stuff because it didn't agree with their own earlier pre-alternate Universe stuff (they could have passed it off as another alternate timeline I suppose but that might have been pushing it).

Does anyone have to hand the quote from IDW circa the Revenge of Starscream where they specifically say they don't expect their comics to line up perfectly with the film even though they're going to try because it's all being done from earlier drafts?
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 09:50 PM   #36
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Now there's a thought, I was wondering if it was a case of them not doing any of the IDW movie stuff because it didn't agree with their own earlier pre-alternate Universe stuff (they could have passed it off as another alternate timeline I suppose but that might have been pushing it).

Does anyone have to hand the quote from IDW circa the Revenge of Starscream where they specifically say they don't expect their comics to line up perfectly with the film even though they're going to try because it's all being done from earlier drafts?
No adaption writer expects their adaption to line up "perfectly". They know going in that it won't. They simply do their best to get it as close as possible under the circumstances. The fact is that they tried to get it as close as possible, and the intent is that these are inherently the same stories in the same continuity, just different interpretations. That's why they are called "adaptions".
 
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Old 2009-07-14, 10:55 PM   #37
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As much as I like to see the bantering back and forth, I would like to submit a suggestion: when writing a paragraph, please focus only those ideas that belong within that paragraph. New idea, new paragraph. Same idea, same paragraph.

Not that I am the expert, the English professor, or even the grammar police, but maintaining simple paragraph rules adds coherence to a post, much less gives the writer ample opportunity to revise before posting. With a run-on paragraph both the writer and the reader are lost without direction or clarity.

One useful tool I learned a while back is that bickering and arguing are similar in nature, but an argument presents points and counterpoints. Bickering is like the flinging of poo across the chimp's bars to the neighboring hyenas. Someone gets mad, flings the poo and all the other person gets is shat on.
 
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Old 2009-07-15, 05:38 AM   #38
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That doesn't matter. The essence of the character is still important, hers isn't the type of name you can just slap on any character.
Gone un-namechecked in a movie where the great majority of the audience wasn't whining about the re-use of the name Devastator because they didn't even notice, this is a problem?

I dunno, most of my friends who have seen this movie are either kids too young to have even watched the "G1" series or adults whose memory of it is limited to "the blue guy with the cool voice." I doubt name slapping Elita One is too big a deal...

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Very funny. Ironhide is named so because his armor is nigh invulnerable to most damage.
So the names should be taken literally or not?

Quote:
Yes, it is. "Chosen One", "Best One", "Highest One". That is what Elita's name means. It is the name of a leader. She is the Elite one among the female Autobots. That is where the name comes from. It's all in the name. It isn't the type of name you give a subordinate.
And the name Ultra Magnus should assert competence!

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Originally Posted by Chris McFeely View Post
I'd think the major argument for the third bike not being Elita One would be that Elita One died in "Reign of Starscream".
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He's right you know, there's only one canon after all, Takara say so.
Heh...
 
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Old 2009-07-15, 06:10 AM   #39
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Gone un-namechecked in a movie where the great majority of the audience wasn't whining about the re-use of the name Devastator because they didn't even notice, this is a problem?

I dunno, most of my friends who have seen this movie are either kids too young to have even watched the "G1" series or adults whose memory of it is limited to "the blue guy with the cool voice." I doubt name slapping Elita One is too big a deal...
It depends on the name. Most names are pretty interchangeable, with no inherent significance. Other names have much greater significance and meaning. Elita-1, has a very significant meaning.



Quote:
So the names should be taken literally or not?
It depends upon the name. Ironhide is a very descriptive name, denoting a very tough "hide", a very durable, armor. It denotes invulnerability. the name Soundwave denotes someone who is specialized in manipulaiting sound, a communications specialist, one whose alternate mode is some form of communications equipment. It's very descriptive. A name like Sideswipe, denotes someone who is reckless and daring. Other names like Optimus Prime, Elita-1, Ultra Magnus, Omega Supreme, or other Latin and Greek derived names have very specific meanings as well, They're very indicative of the type of being, and his or her role in a population, society, or group dynamic. Both Optimus Prime and Elita-1, translate into "Best First", "Chosen One". Omega Supreme —"Last Greatest", "Last Extreme", he is the last and ultimate line of defense. These have very deep meanings. You're not going to call a minibot Omega Supreme. You're not going to call a lowly follower Optimus Prime or Elita-1. The names don't match who they are. So yes, names can be very important and descriptive.



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And the name Ultra Magnus should assert competence!
And Ultra Magnus was competent, he just preferred to be a soldier and not the head honcho.
 
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Old 2009-07-16, 12:43 AM   #40
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Apparently all you need is a piece of paper and a pencil with you to name them.

As seen in the interview on the 3rd disc of the 25th Anniversary Season One (2009), which is the bonus disc,
Bob Budiansky is the creator of many of the original Transformer names. He did word associations,connected words with the actual toy figures (Diaclone) and created names from those word associations.

In the eight page treatment that Bob Budiansky wrote, Ulchtar was Starscreams original name and had been edited with the name Starscream written over. This eight page treatment became the the Transformers reality, transforming Diaclones with no history, story or appeal into one of the most popular toy series ever created.
 
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