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Old 2011-10-24, 06:42 AM   #21
inflatable dalek
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Since yesterday I've also remembered X-Men: First Class (smaller box office than Last Stand but still generally well recieved) and the two Paranormal Activity sequels (each of which had has increased on their predecessors opening and have gone down well with fans).

I would however suggest it might be telling that of those three examples, it's only really the X-Men movie that's heavily promoted itself as a prequel (with the McKellan and Stewart narrated trailers. Though I'm not sure how the 60's setting is reconcible with the "Near Future" of the originals unless Cyclops was 70 years old in those).

Technically Temple of Doom should count as a popular and successful prequel but in typical Lucas style it probably counts more as a failure, simply because how many people have seen it over the years without ever even realising it's supposed to be set before Raiders...? I don't think I realised until the mid 90's when Lucas had that odd moment where he tired to pretend there were 30 odd Jones films by editing Young Indy TV episodes together and putting them out along with the videos in boxes numbered in chronological order (though somewhat thankfully I don't think they managed to release all of them over here. Did anyone even watch the free Young tape that came with the video boxset of the "proper" films?).

And I still moved Temple to its proper place in the box regardless of the numbers no longer lining up, if nothing else the call back to the gun scene in the first one makes much more sense when watched release way round.

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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
However, I don't think either would prove much of a guideline for a TF prequel; TBH the main reason the Hobbit's being made is because no-one's ever finished reading the Silmarillion and there'd be a war if they simply came up with their own Lord of the Rings 4.
I do think the Trek film are pertinent in that they're Paramounts other "Big" SF Movie franchise (possibly even their biggest movie series full stop? Mission Impossible is the only other one that comes close and that's got less than half as many films) and they'll probably look to that and its success and failures when considering what to do with Transformers.

EDIT: And what are the two Trek films that are most popular outside of fandom? IV and XI, the ones that play the comedy the most broadly. That coupled with the prior Bay success is more than enough reason for Paramount not to want a serious full on war movie Transformers film.
 

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Old 2011-10-24, 01:39 PM   #22
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Probably I'm a wee bit too late to jump on the bandwagon, but here's my thoughts:

A prequel on Cybertron, without humans, would be disastrous. Even almost-fully-CGI movies that are successful, like, oh, take James Cameron's Avatar, had humans in it, with colourful backgrounds and alien animals that vaguely resemble dinosaurs and panthers and horses that we can relate to.

While it might, might make sense in a story prospect, it is hardly very lucrative for a movie. After all, like Cliffy said, if it's not going to have humans in it it's hardly going to be live-action anymore, right? Again, metal robots on metal backgrounds... meh. Just meh. I mean, the fandom would lap it up, but it would fail badly in the box offices.

The appeal of the movieverse to me is that how the Transformers looked so real and blend in so seamlessly with the suburbans, with the highway, with Chicago, with the desert and so on and so forth. Things like Dino whipping Hatchet onto another car, or Optimus whacking Megatron with a tree, or Demolishor running around the streets of Shanghai, or Driller drilling through that building, or the Autobots hiding around a home... it's these things that struck such a chord with the general audience, that they look real.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who watches Transformers just for a fun action movie with awesome CG effects. How real would they look if everything else was metal metal metal metal? How boring would it be?

Star Wars prequels are quite rubbish, and as someone who watched the prequels before the sequels, well, I was like WTF. The prequels were heavy on CG but not much on acting... Anakin's expression was rubbish. And we're supposed to relate the prequel's Anakin to the Darth Vader in the original trilogy? Mindscrew.

X-Men first class (and Wolverine as well, though while I liked it I know many people don't) is so obvious as a prequel, and a pretty fun one but that's mostly because they already have a story to work out with, and, lest we forget, it still has humans and stuff.

Star Trek is a prequel? I thought it was a reboot, albeit in a way that sort-of ties it in to prior stuff. Although since the only Trek material I've watched is the new movie and about halfway through Wrath of Khan, I'm hardly an expert of the franchise. I do like the new movie, it's fun.
 
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Old 2011-10-24, 06:28 PM   #23
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Temple of Doom was a prequel?????

As to Trek, I felt it was a reboot that tied into the existing Trek-verse to appease fans more than anything else (and did a nice job too!).

Star Wars? Well, I think the issue there lies not with the actors, but with the director - George Lucas really should not be allowed to direct his own films. I mean, come on, who else could coax a wooden performance from Samuel L. Jackson? Star Wars was as poor as the prequel trilogy - the difference was it was something new and wonderful in the eyes of the audience. Fortunately, Lucas did not direct Empire or Jedi.

(And I loved X-Men: First Class - way better than any of the previous X-Men films I thought. Better focus on the human element, great acting... Yup. Loved it! Screw continuity.)

A prequel to Transformers? Well, I really have no interest in a CG Cybertron-based film (I say 'no' but, well, I'd still enjoy the robots really...). What I love about the live action films is the way they have fun with the whole concept and blend it with pop culture - it's a laugh. It's also why they've been so successful. You'd lose that with a robot-based prequel. Still, they did mix in a lot of hints at historic connections with Transformers and humans, so a historic option is not out of the question - still, I think it'd be poor.

I liked the ending of DOTM. I'd be happy enough if they left it there, while on a high. It'd be a shame if it fell the same was as Jurassic Park or Aliens and Predator (through Aliens Vs Predator films, and Predators). If they can think of a genuinely good plot to take things forward, that would be cool, but, otherwise, the best thing they can do for the fans is to drop it while we're going good.
 
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Old 2011-10-24, 07:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Star Trek is a prequel? I thought it was a reboot, albeit in a way that sort-of ties it in to prior stuff. Although since the only Trek material I've watched is the new movie and about halfway through Wrath of Khan, I'm hardly an expert of the franchise. I do like the new movie, it's fun.
The new film was basically the Trek version of Target:2006/Time Wars if Galvatron was successful, Spock Prime and Nero being from the "present" of the original history is enough to make it at least a partial prequel. Not that the film dwells on it.

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Temple of Doom was a prequel?????
Yeah, it set something like a couple of years earlier, apparently because they didn't want Nazi's in it. A friend of mine does have a theory the film shows Indy going from being a very mercenary and uncaring character to the more rounded basically good man seen in Raiders, but that's a bit dubious to me.
 
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Old 2011-10-24, 08:01 PM   #25
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Regardless of contrived chronology, Temple of Doom is a crackingfilm. :-)
 
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Old 2011-10-24, 08:04 PM   #26
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Regardless of contrived chronology, Temple of Doom is a crackingfilm. :-)
Fully agreed, it seems to be the least popular over all but I love it for being the only one of the sequels to not have exactly the same plot as the first one (complete with the problem that the villain ends up getting killed by what they're after meaning Indy might as well have let them get on with it). Bloody terrifying as well, and that's with the uncut version still never having been released in the UK.
 
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Old 2011-10-25, 05:53 PM   #27
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Oh god, the Temple of Doom lovers are coming out of the woodwork.

Honestly, I don't really care how bad future installments of Transformers may get. I just want as many of them as I can get while they've still got momentum and popular relevance.
 
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Old 2011-12-09, 06:47 PM   #28
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So it looks like Bay is back. Shia is out. There are plenty of decepticons left. Astrotrain, Thundercracker, Skywarp, Motormaster and the stunticons, Galvatron, Cyclonus, Predaking, the insecticons, Blitzwing, Starscream's ghost just to name a few. Also Unicron.

Plenty of stories left to tell. I am kinda excited to see what they come up with.

Oh and Galvatron does not have to be Megatron resurrected.

One last thing I did enjoy Temple of Doom. It was a good prequel.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 02:52 PM   #29
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All I can say is that after watching all three TF movies, I think it's time to shut the book. I thought that's what they did with DOTM. Ironhide, Sentinel, Megs, Starscream are all dead. It is still possible to hand off the mantle to Roddy and UM, but we waited most of a decade to even see the live action movies. To kill off Prime in a deathmatch with a resurrected Megs or an overpowered Galvatron might be good movie making, but really, we watched Prime die already. We watched him get dismembered, and even beat his nemesis with only one arm. Nothing more to see.
I would probably have most of the fanbase behind me when I say that I wouldn't want to see Prime die again, but here are some concepts that could be introduced if (sigh) there is a new sequel:

1) Dinobots-- Oh , yeah, Bay hates'em.
2. The remake of dead Megs , Starscream and the 20,000 dead Deceps from DOTM become Cyclonus, Scourge, the Sweeps and other mindless, faceless minions.
3. The Autobot cars missed in all three of the live action movies-- namely Prowl, Tracks, Hot Rod, Smokescreen, Blue Streak , Blurr, Kup , and Sunstreaker.
4. OMEGA SUPREME, Trypticon and Menosaur.
5. NO Unicron, Please. He's just too big to be realistic.

Needless to say, if there is a 4th movie, given the current aesthetics of the characters, the fans will go away and what was predicted about Bay would come true-- He will kill Transformers.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 03:07 PM   #30
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I think Hasbro have realised at long last that Rodimus, Galvatron, Cyclonus and co - regardless of how popular some of them are now in the fandom - were deeply unpopular with the wider public. TF:TM was the first real disaster in the G1 line and the brand took over a decade to recover from it. They're highly unlikely to start raiding it for a new direction - Optimus especially is there to stay as Hasbro have realised the character's a genuine icon rather than just another guy who happens to be leader. Even Galvatron's only been wheeled out for main lines because the name on boxes will sell to more kids than "Megatron recolour".

The most reference there'll be to the '86 movie in TF4 would be if a couple of the new background Autobots are called Kup and Rodimus, or a couple of Decepticons get name-checked as Cyclonus and Scourge (and they'll likely be two random heavies rather than reanimated bits of Crankcase and Grindor).


That said, and RiD-style Scourge might provide an interesting main villain, in line with the past two films having hooked out minor non-toy characters and done something more interesting with the concepts.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 03:24 PM   #31
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And, even if people don't like the films, it's hard to say they're the "Death" of Transformers. As well as their mind-boggling box office grosses (and I doubt even the most optimistic of us five years ago would have expected the fourth most successful film of all time to be a TF one) we've had two cartoon that have been better received by fans, a third one to keep the little kiddies happy, a wider and more diverse number of toys than have been on sale at the same time previously, the reasonably successful relaunch of the books and a new Panini sticker album. It's only the comics that have been carrying on in the same half hearted way as before the films (though hopefully that'll change this year), and we still have had Last Stand of the Wreckers in that time.

Basically, the success of the films has seen something for everyone, even if it's just the fancy new DVD's of the old shows that have been put out to tie in with the pictures. Plus there's the bonus of an entirely new generation of fans being created, fresh blood is what every fandom need regular injections of and in ten or 15 years we'll see a lot of people who grew up with these films signing up to whatever futuristic brain implants have replaced message boards and bemoaning that Transformers 26 doesn't have any of the classic characters like Barricade in it (unless us old farts wind up scaring them off with the "Get off our land" attitude).

It's a great time to be a fan regardless of what you think of the films because there's so much else to enjoy. It won't last of course, all franchises have their good and bad times, and I suspect in a few years we'll all be looking back on this period nostalgically.

It's much like Who fans complaining that Moffet has destroyed the program forever or Trekies bemoaning that Abrahms has done the same, when what they basically mean is they don't like the current most popular form of their favourite thing. Which isn't the same thing (though I wish it were after that last Who Christmas special. I'm actually baffled that every non-fan I've talked to has gone on about how they were crying at the end. I may be dead inside...).

EDIT:
Quote:
That said, and RiD-style Scourge might provide an interesting main villain, in line with the past two films having hooked out minor non-toy characters and done something more interesting with the concepts.
I think you'll find RID Scourge was a toy character. And hardly a minor one.


Don't like it when it's done to you do you, Eh?
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 03:40 PM   #32
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Meant more that the movie guys aren't stuck to the same old "Hey, we've used the guys from Seasons 1-2, now the only obvious candidates are from Season 3!" mindset some people seem to think they are, though the phrasing was clumsy. I would argue, though, that RiD Scourge is a relatively minor character in the grand scheme we're talking about, being restricted to about half of a moderately successful cartoon.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 03:47 PM   #33
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Meant more that the movie guys aren't stuck to the same old "Hey, we've used the guys from Seasons 1-2, now the only obvious candidates are from Season 3!" mindset some people seem to think they are, though the phrasing was clumsy. I would argue, though, that RiD Scourge is a relatively minor character in the grand scheme we're talking about, being restricted to about half of a moderately successful cartoon.
You can't argue with the use of both bold and italics. It's unheard of!

OK, it's probably been a bit to long since the last time you did it for it to work as an ironic call back, but best served cold and all that.

I actually would be surprised if Megatron wound up staying dead. Considering it wouldn't have been that hard to do the last two films without him it seems someone just likes having him around for the name recognition whilst the more obscure actual villain just gets on with it.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 08:11 PM   #34
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Meant more that the movie guys aren't stuck to the same old "Hey, we've used the guys from Seasons 1-2, now the only obvious candidates are from Season 3!" mindset some people seem to think they are...
Yeah, remember that G1 Episode where Mudflap and Jolt did stuff?

Or how great Barricade was in "More than Meets the Eye" and everyone just HAD to have his toy?
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 08:50 PM   #35
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Mmm, you'd think after those (and all the other huge dissimilarities) people would've clicked that they're not remaking G1 after three films.

I'd actually be sort-of curious to see how they handled Unicron, though. I would suspect that the action film format would mean they'd junk a lot of the mythical stuff (which, I find, is what's really tedious about more recent returns - all the heralds and acolytes and that sort of crap; it's basically the old 1980s Marvel stuff stretched out ever further and with ever-more disappointing execution), which would soften the blow - something like the infodump Jetfire gives in RotF. Still not entirely sure how they'd manage the scale side of things, but chances are it'd be a radically different take, which could be interesting.

Got a feeling DotM's "Cybertron nearly swallowing Earth" bit might have been as close to it as they plan to get. I'd say they're unlikely to recycle visuals, but then there was the ill-advised decision to put the big battle in RotF in what looked like exactly the same bit of desert they used for Scorponok's scene in the first one.
 
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Old 2012-01-13, 09:52 PM   #36
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Or how great Barricade was in "More than Meets the Eye" and everyone just HAD to have his toy?
Best thing in it...
 
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Old 2012-01-15, 12:00 AM   #37
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I love Dark of the Moon. It's the live action Transformers film I always wanted. The first 2007 film was an amazing introduction, and Revenge of the Fallen had superb set-pieces if no coherent plot, but only DOTM really pulled everything together and delivered. Come on, a teacup smashes on Shockwave's head! Awesome!

DOTM also gives really good closure, and would be the perfect ending point for the live action films, and it'd be a shame to see them continue and become increasingly poor as is apt to happen.

That said, if they came up with a good script, I'd be interested (that'll sell it ti 'em - an audience of one fanboy!).

I don't want Megatron back - I liked his attrition and end. Galvatron would be fun, but I love the idea of RID Scourge. I think he's the best villain in Transformers after Megatron, and he's chronically underused. I really can't see how Unicron could be done in a believable way, but would be well up for seeing how the concept could be tackled. I'm not precious - I like the radical takes on characters in the live action films, and would like to see more. The designs are my favourites of all, and I've been following Transformers since the start of G1.

I don't agree that concepts for a fourth film should avoid the G1 movie. While that. May not have gone down well at the time it has become entrenched in modern pop culture, so could offer some material for a new film. Still, I'd prefer Optimus and RID Scourge. That would (could) rock.
 
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Old 2012-01-15, 05:26 PM   #38
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I think Hasbro have realised at long last that Rodimus, Galvatron, Cyclonus and co - regardless of how popular some of them are now in the fandom - were deeply unpopular with the wider public.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Killing Optimus is what was unpopular, and whatever followed was doomed from the start. I doubt the characters had much to do with it, and the non-fans I know don't even remember any of them other than maybe Hot Rod (who actually seems to be remembered in a good light most of the time). Hasbro has learned their lesson, and they know better than to let the filmmakers kill off either of their best-selling characters for real. The odds of Optimus or Bumblebee dying in the next movie are practically zero, and it'll stay that way until the kids stop buying their toys. But if they want to add another major character (and after killing off the #3 Autobot in Ironhide, they might) Hot Rod would be one of the most likely suspects. He's become fairly recognizable again due to Hasbro putting out a fair number of new toys, and a reckless young punk is the sort of character that's right up Bay's alley.

Although with all this talk of RiD, if Ultra Magnus shows up I'd love for him to be a jealous asshole trying to steal the Matrix from Prime...

I'm a bit nervous about TF4, honestly, because action movie sequels always try to top the last release and...well, how do you top DOTM? I'm not sure you can, honestly. Unicron, like Cliffy said, isn't all that different from Cybertron coming through. And I'm not sure that another giant Decepticon invasion would be able to top the one in DOTM, either. And ROTF had the combiner angle covered, along with super-giant robots in general. So where do you go from here?

Oh, and I agree with the people who don't want Megatron back. He was completely useless in the last two movies, and in retrospect I would have been happier if they'd let him stay dead after the first movie. He wasn't the lead villain, and Starscream, Soundwave and Shockwave had all the important henchmen roles sewn up. Honestly it felt like they only brought him back because the higher-ups decided that Megatron had to be in every Transformers movie they made.
 
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Old 2012-01-15, 06:01 PM   #39
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Yeh, Megatron's been used up a bit through the last two films using him as a dummy villain, if you like. In DotM especially he's just there so Sentinel's betrayal packs some sort of punch. I think big-name recognition for the Decepticons isn't really a factor; Shockwave was only really included for diversion value. They're certainly not going to jump through too many hoops to resurrect any of them.

Hot Rod I'll admit, but personality-wise I'm not sure he'd stand out amongst the Autobots - I'm not sure they'll be after any more 'lead' Autobots any time soon. Still mildly surprised he's not the "toy" name for Mirage at least. The past two films have largely established that new Autobots tend to be background.

What I'd do if it was up to me would be to have a consciously less epic storyline. I'd have an RiD-style Scourge character (I'd probably actually merge RiD Scourge and Magnus, basically) with the Combaticons land on Earth, a former protege of Megatron/The Fallen/one or the other of the Primes and are basically out to kill the Autobots for revenge; no real designs on Earth apart from stopping NEST and the like from getting in the way. Still plenty of scope for eye-popping action and it wouldn't be too hard to use NEST or the government to thread our new human leads into it.
 
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Old 2012-01-15, 06:19 PM   #40
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I like that idea, Cliffy. It'd be a decent story. I'd maybe prefer it if Scourge actually was an Autobot and a Prime, but a more ruthless Decepticon-type rival faction for whatever reason (but not a Decepticon or disciple of The Fallen), who had justifiable claim to the Matrix, and no designs on humans other than where they got in the way. Maybe they'd been incarcerated for war crimes or some-such during the Cybertronian Wars and released through a malfunction brought on by transporting the planet in DOTM. Real nemesis stuff. That'd be fun.



Of course, it won't happen - it'll just try and top the last, and who knows how, although I'd be surprised if it was clever... (I would love to be proven wrong though!)
 
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