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Old 2011-12-24, 01:53 PM   #41
Terome
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Originally Posted by Skyquake87 View Post
I asked hasbro if i could be kept informed of any developments regarding this.

I had a response from hasbro yesterday saying the ngo allegations are "unfounded" having been out themselves to check the conditions in the factory. They carried out a 9 hour unannounced inspection and found no evidence of the claims raised by ngo in their report. They will continue to monitor the jetfair factory in question along with all the other factories they use,including further jetfair ones.
That's interesting. But even if it is all true, it's no proof of anything. An 'unannounced inspection' in a world of search engine alerts, against a background of bribery, is a pretty ineffective way to do things.

The report itself is difficult to dismiss out of hand due to that photo of the unreleased, packaged Bumblebee figure. Someone was there and took pictures and felt compelled to write that report. I'd like to see a report from a third party before I can find these claims of 'no evidence' to be credible.
 
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Old 2011-12-24, 02:16 PM   #42
inflatable dalek
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"Oh no Hoshi, look, it;'s Hasbro on a totally unannounced visi! Who'd have expected that right after all this fuss? We've certainly not had chance to throw all the starving working in the river".
 
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Old 2011-12-24, 04:27 PM   #43
Warcry
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Originally Posted by TFVanguard View Post
Yet all three things are beginning to happen. China is beginning to normalize. Factories are prefering Mexico and starting to look at Brazil again. And wages are just starting to go down. As a wise man once said, "anything that can't go on forever, simply won't".
Slowly, yes, those things are happening. But that was always inevitable. When you pour that much money into a country, you have to expect that the standard of living will go up and you won't be able to exploit them anymore. That's the reason why I don't get up in arms about sweat shop accusations myself -- because even though things are bad in some of them, the money they bring in is slowly improving the quality of life for everyone in the country. I still can't say that that level of exploitation is a good thing, because it's horrible for the people who are enduring it. But even for all that, it does help in a way.

As for us? We'll adapt, but it'll be hard because we've dug ourselves a pretty big hole. In the short term by finding other places to exploit, probably. In the long term, a combination of improved automation and, yes, lower wages for unskilled work. But a big part of the problem is that no one in the West wants to work for a living. My dad worked for thirty years at an auto parts plant (non-union, mind, so the wages aren't great). When he started, almost everyone there were working-class Canadian folk. By the time he retired the only people they can hire are freshly-immigrated Filipinos and Aboriginals who've moved to the city from the reserve -- people whose old lives sucked sucked and who are willing to work hard to improve their lot in life. No one else is even willing to give it a shot, because everyone who was born and raised here has been taught to believe that if they can't go to university or college, get a degree and be upper middle class, they're an utter failure. Working as a janitor or at Walmart is in some ways considered even more of a disgrace than being on welfare.

I can understand that to an extent, too. The people I know who are on welfare can not only afford to pay for the necessities of life, if they budget right they've got enough money to afford some luxuries like video game consoles or mountains of DVDs. They're not wealthy by any means, but if they've got a choice between doing nothing and living that life, or working a hard job that only puts them marginally ahead...well, I can understand why so few native-born Canadians apply for those hard jobs anymore.

And that is definitely not sustainable. Eventually we're going to run out of poor brown people who want to move here and do our dirty work. And when that happens, we'll have no choice but to fill the jobs ourselves.

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Originally Posted by TFVanguard View Post
The latter not so much already since Legion-class figures are already costing as much as deluxe class figures just a few years ago. ($8.99 for a Legion in Kohls... and they wonder why their toys don't do so well...)
This, I suspect, has less to do with a raise in 'absolute price' than it does with the US dollar dropping through the floor. Your currency's purchasing power is so low right now that prices almost have to go up for imported goods.

That's the most obvious downside of outsourcing all of your production to a different country.

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Originally Posted by TFVanguard View Post
Not really. In China, anything is the government. We're not really used to that in the west, where any manager, any work-boss, etc., are part of the 'Party' and answers the chain on up. Also, the 'culture of pride' means that any sort of bad news is quietly dealt with and hushed up. Dirty launder is not aired.
I see where you're coming from, and I've seen that sort of behaviour first-hand. The place my dad worked expanded by outsourcing a lot of work to China, and they had huge QC issues with the parts that they produced. The factory managers, meanwhile, absolutely refused to even admit to the outsiders that there was a problem. But I see exactly the same problem with the Indian outsourcers that I sometimes have to deal with at my job, so I suspect it's less a government thing than it is an ingrained cultural one.

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Originally Posted by TFVanguard View Post
In Communism "Some people are more equal than others."
That may or may not be true, but the Chinese government isn't even vaguely communist and the fact that they claim to be is the biggest joke in the world. China is the biggest haven for unregulated business in the world. Their economic policies make the US look communist. China is really nothing more than a slightly more oppressive version of 29th-century Europe.

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Originally Posted by TFVanguard View Post
It's not that one-sided. Wal*Mart still needs a variety of product to sell, else there's no reason to shop there. Wal*Mart's real primary advantage is their incredibly-efficient distribution network. Sears and Target could wipe the floor with Wal*Mart overnight if they would adopt Wal*Mart's distribution model... but that conflicts with their intended upper-middle-class image. :S
It is that one-sided, because Walmart can afford to lose a single supplier a lot more than that supplier can afford to lose Walmart. You would need to see hundreds of corporations band together and refuse to deal with Walmart before they had any appreciable effect on their busness.

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Originally Posted by Terome View Post
That's interesting. But even if it is all true, it's no proof of anything. An 'unannounced inspection' in a world of search engine alerts, against a background of bribery, is a pretty ineffective way to do things.
But if the factory owners are forced to maintain higher standards because Hasbro is keeping them under closer scrutiny, surely that's a good thing? Since this sort of thing is an embarrassment for Hasbro, they really have no choice but to watch Jet Fair more closely if they continue to use them. And we don't know what working conditions are like at other Jet Fair facilities. Maybe they're all the same, but it's possible that this one was the exception to the rule and the news story shamed their management into cleaning things up.

We'll never really know for sure, but this really is the best outcome that you could reasonably expect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terome View Post
The report itself is difficult to dismiss out of hand due to that photo of the unreleased, packaged Bumblebee figure. Someone was there and took pictures and felt compelled to write that report. I'd like to see a report from a third party before I can find these claims of 'no evidence' to be credible.
http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transf...ml#post7011756

A group that exists for no reason but to certify that factories are being run ethically has certified the place. Does that count?

If you're assuming that Jet Fair would rather spend resources on hoodwinking Hasbro inspectors than on genuinely improving working conditions, then how could we trust the results of any inspection or report?

[EDIT]
Also, there's this.

The people who created this report seem to be in a bit of hot water for making sweatshop accusations -- which turned out to not be backed up by any evidence -- about another group. Now, maybe this Kardashian nonsense is an isolated incident...but maybe it's not. Without launching an exhaustive investigation, we don't really know.

If this is any indication of how they usually operate, this "Institute for Global Labor and Human Rights" may not be all that credible a source. It could be 100% true, or it could be full of out of context, unverified accusations cherry-picked to make things look as bad as they possibly could. But frankly, considering their recent track record I don't think their accusations hold any more weight for me than Hasbro's denials. I won't accept either one as the unvarnished truth without some strong, independent backup.

So we should probably take the initial report with a grain of salt.
 

Last edited by Warcry; 2011-12-24 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 2011-12-27, 11:32 PM   #44
Jaynz
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Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
As for us? We'll adapt, but it'll be hard because we've dug ourselves a pretty big hole. In the short term by finding other places to exploit, probably.

Not too many places left. These 'exploitable spaces' have to also be stable, and once you're getting past China and Mexico... well, stability isn't exactly well known in most of Africa or South America. Other areas, like the Middle East, would outright be hostile to such endeavors.

Quote:
Working as a janitor or at Walmart is in some ways considered even more of a disgrace than being on welfare.
Boomer Culture is a very spoiled one, but we're seeing the end of it. I'm not exactly sure how this is going to all pan out, but I think we're seeing the painful, spiteful end of "I'm too good to work THERE" part of our culture. In short... we have too many 'wanna-be posh' people about to be decidedly 'not posh'.

Quote:
I see where you're coming from, and I've seen that sort of behaviour first-hand. The place my dad worked expanded by outsourcing a lot of work to China, and they had huge QC issues with the parts that they produced. The factory managers, meanwhile, absolutely refused to even admit to the outsiders that there was a problem. But I see exactly the same problem with the Indian outsourcers that I sometimes have to deal with at my job, so I suspect it's less a government thing than it is an ingrained cultural one.
It's definately cultural. When I worked for Lotus Garden it was pretty rampant (though, thankfully, there were really only a few minor issues there). At CIOE (a networking company) the cultural differences in how to run a business was staggering.

If you're assuming that Jet Fair would rather spend resources on hoodwinking Hasbro inspectors than on genuinely improving working conditions, then how could we trust the results of any inspection or report?

Quote:
If this is any indication of how they usually operate, this "Institute for Global Labor and Human Rights" may not be all that credible a source.
Without wanting to drag in American-political partisanship into it, let's just say that "no", they are not trustworthy. Put them in the same group as Greenpeace or PETA.
 
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