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Old 2012-04-29, 03:14 PM   #1
relak
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Default Should Headmasters get a USA re-dub + edit?

Opinions from transformers fans.

I was watching Headmasters again and i kinda realised that with minimal editing, The Japanese headmasters can be made to fit in with the american concept of headmasters and target masters.
It would definitely be better than the curreccnt english dub

Just do to Headmasters what the did to power rangers or Robotech and Voltron.

Planet Masters becomes nebulos with reused scenes from "The Rebirth" replacing flashbacks of Planet Master.
All the names wil be correct according to the american naming.
The more "magical" elements will be toned down or handwaved as technological based (no "power of our friendship head formation").



Heck wont it be cool to have well known TF voice actors "reprise" their roles? Especially Peter Cullen as Prime. Also, i always imagine David Kaye (TF:Animated Optimus voice) as Cerebros and (BW Megatron tone) as Fortress Maximus.

Older anime tend to get re-dubs. Like a couple of Studio Ghibli movies, Macross, Lupin III, Akira so why not Transformers?

will it sell?

What do you guys think?
 
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Old 2012-04-29, 03:53 PM   #2
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I think the three Japanese series Headmasters, Masterforce & Victory - all previously released to DVD- have reached their intended market. They are all largley unfamilar and uniquely Japanese takes on the format and I think if there were any interest and / or demand for these to be re-dubbed or whatever then it would have been done on those original releases.

As it is, its material thats unfamilar to those outside of the Transformers fanbase (and large though it is, I doubt there'd be enough potential consumers to make this worthwhile as not everyone unanamously agrees that everything released under the Transformers brand must be purchased on sight), so financing any work of this nature would be a huge commerical risk. Even with Headmasters, which does feature largely recognisable characters. So I think the fandubs that exist are as good as you're going to get with these.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 12:08 AM   #3
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Headmasters is also a genuinely terrible cartoon, probably worse than the 'Western' rubbish as it really thinks it's something great. Internet rumour before downloads and DVDs were common had it as this dark epic (OMFG, MAGNUS DIES AND THERE IS A NINJA!) and a little later a great show ruined by the dub. But there's some real shite in there - the planet of the Bee People, Megazarak's weak spot, Fortress turning into a giant head on a table, Convoy dying six seconds after he was resurrected, the Destron Headmasters, Wheelie and Daniel, etc. This is built-in stuff.

It also features hands-down the most shameless bit of toy promo in TF history, as Broadcast and Soundwave have their wannabe-epic showdown, everyone cries like bitches and then *bam* they're back the next episode completely unchanged apart from now being in colour schemes which you can find at your local toystore. Suck Uncle Takara's dick, little children, Uncle Takara have treat for you if you do.

Rebirth is 1) shorter and 2) shameless.

It's worth remembering people like Akira, and more than 38 of them own it on DVD.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 01:16 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
Headmasters is also a genuinely terrible cartoon, probably worse than the 'Western' rubbish as it really thinks it's something great. Internet rumour before downloads and DVDs were common had it as this dark epic (OMFG, MAGNUS DIES AND THERE IS A NINJA!) and a little later a great show ruined by the dub. But there's some real shite in there - the planet of the Bee People, Megazarak's weak spot, Fortress turning into a giant head on a table, Convoy dying six seconds after he was resurrected, the Destron Headmasters, Wheelie and Daniel, etc. This is built-in stuff.

It also features hands-down the most shameless bit of toy promo in TF history, as Broadcast and Soundwave have their wannabe-epic showdown, everyone cries like bitches and then *bam* they're back the next episode completely unchanged apart from now being in colour schemes which you can find at your local toystore. Suck Uncle Takara's dick, little children, Uncle Takara have treat for you if you do.

Rebirth is 1) shorter and 2) shameless.

It's worth remembering people like Akira, and more than 38 of them own it on DVD.
Thats why i said it wont be a straight up dub, but a re-edit to remove the lamer concepts and streamline it down and keep it more in line with the tone of the US series.

Yes Magnus can still die, but the dialogue can be spruced up a bit and scenes edited so that it is truly heroic.

Sixshot's whole "ninja" thingy can be re-dubbed into stealth technology, hologram projectors and a kind of "hunter's honor" similar to the movie Predator.

The idiotic narration will be cut out, at most having a victor carroli sound-alike to do the "on the next episode" bits.


The same way they edited Robotech so that characters from 3 seperate japanese anime seemed to be interacting together within the same story frame, Headmasters can be edited in the same way.
Furthermore, with digital software, such editing will be easy. Built in stuff can be edited or changed.

Fan dubs i've scoured from the internet are either straight up dubs or gag dubs. None have tried re-editing the show to fit US continuity
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:22 AM   #5
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You can't edit out a lot of the bad stuff. How do you edit out Megazarak's weak spot being his Destron logo? Or Soundblaster and Twincast being completely pointless?

Robotech and Voltron were edited/commissioned because Harmony Gold/WIP had shit-loads of toys and syndication rights to pick up. Headmasters isn't even popular enough to attract a half-decent pro dub. There's nothing in it for anyone other than fans, and most of them hate Headmasters because it's terrible.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:54 AM   #6
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i think also there's no expectation or demand on any of the japanese stuff to fit into western continuity (well, except probably in the mind of Hirofumi Ichikawa and look how well that turned out...), its just too different to the practised conventions of both what western audiences understand Transformers to be about, how the japanese approached it, not to mention the differences in storytelling techniques.

I think if you were to re-edit it...you'd cut a 40 episode series down to about ten. There's just too much stuff to resolve - the dead autobots prowl and company being visible, ultra magnus funeral barge (flowers? really?), the battle beasts, the silly head swapping power (nice as a play feature, but really dumb looking on tv) which later epsidoes become more an more relaint on demonstrating...its just not worth the bother, thats why the fan dubs have just gone for a straight redub or sent the whole thing up for being what it is - another goofy japanese mecha show.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 09:09 AM   #7
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Yeh, Transformers fans pretty much don't expect anything to really fit together now. There are more iterations of G1 out there than most people can count, and trying to pretend one is part of another doesn't have much gain.

Reminds me of a thread either here or at Transfans when the first issues of War Within hit with some people jumping through hoops to try and fit it in with Marvel continuity.

The few who like Headmasters often like it because it is different anyway - I've seen it criticised for consciously trying to ape the style of the US show (I guess rather than having the guts to be truly diabolical like Masterforce does). The basic tone, with its' amateurish attempts to up the stakes with a dreadful arc narrative and a bunch of crap deaths, is in direct conflict to the American series' 22-minute reset buttons and cheap patronising moral lessons.

Fan edits for tone reason is something I find pretty silly anyway - integrating cut material and stuff like that makes more sense, but slicing bits out and pretending they never happened is a bit childish. You can edit out Fortress making stupid faces to cheer up Daniel, but you still know it was there, and so does everyone else.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 04:24 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
You can't edit out a lot of the bad stuff. How do you edit out Megazarak's weak spot being his Destron logo? Or Soundblaster and Twincast being completely pointless?

Robotech and Voltron were edited/commissioned because Harmony Gold/WIP had shit-loads of toys and syndication rights to pick up. Headmasters isn't even popular enough to attract a half-decent pro dub. There's nothing in it for anyone other than fans, and most of them hate Headmasters because it's terrible.
If you can't edit it out, then explain it out.

The weakness could be a overlooked design flaw or some form of failsafe should the Scorponok body be taken over by an enemy kinda like the "3 spots" on Bruticus' back.
Soundblaster and Twincast can just be Blaster and Soundwave rebuilt with different paintjobs.

It is not popular as it is, but neither was GoLion. For GoLion, it was only AFTER it was made into Voltron did its popularity soar. Same goes for the 3rd Robotech season "Mospeda". It only became really popular after it was redubbed as "Robotech: The New Generation".

A re-dubbed and re-edited Transformers headmasters series can be marketed as the "true" continuation of the Transformers G1 cartoon.
They're doing it in comcs with Regeneration.

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you'd cut a 40 episode series down to about ten.
Actually, i figure 25. One standard season.

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the silly head swapping power
explained either in narration or dialogue as a way of adapting to changing battle conditions. For example, perhaps Brainstorm has a plan but it requires the firepower that Brainstorm does not have. So he switches heads with Hardhead thus getting access to Hardhead's firepower.

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You can edit out Fortress making stupid faces to cheer up Daniel, but you still know it was there, and so does everyone else.
erm, no.
It was pretty clear that only TF fans would have watched Headmasters so NOT everyone else does know about the stupid faces.
Same case with Voltron and Robotech. The tiny minority that did watch the original GoLion and Macross knew stuff were cut out but the rest just took it as it was.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 05:27 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by relak View Post
It is not popular as it is, but neither was GoLion. For GoLion, it was only AFTER it was made into Voltron did its popularity soar. Same goes for the 3rd Robotech season "Mospeda". It only became really popular after it was redubbed as "Robotech: The New Generation".
Uhm, yeh. But Voltron was popular because the central idea was new to the audience for the large part and hit America at just the right time. We're talking about a 25-year old cartoon about Transformers.

Quote:
A re-dubbed and re-edited Transformers headmasters series can be marketed as the "true" continuation of the Transformers G1 cartoon.
They're doing it in comcs with Regeneration.
Eight thousand people buy TF comics. Eight thousand. 8000. It's a niche market, not an attempt to bring back the eighties.

Quote:
erm, no.
It was pretty clear that only TF fans would have watched Headmasters so NOT everyone else does know about the stupid faces.
Same case with Voltron and Robotech. The tiny minority that did watch the original GoLion and Macross knew stuff were cut out but the rest just took it as it was.
Whoa, wait a minute. You're talking about putting this on TV or something and expecting normal people to watch it? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is ****ing priceless.

"Hey, Mad Men's on!"
"Oh, forget that, there's this shitty old cartoon about Transformers on the other side - it's full of guys I've never ****ing heard of, and there are all these long slabs of dialogue over-explaining things".

Oh, my. I think a little bit of wee came out. You think that non-fans would actually sit down and watch this poncified 1987 cartoon if it got a fancy dub and a few moronic things hamfistedly cut out? Gundam didn't even get a full US run without being cancelled, and that was good.

The G1 cartoon is a nostalgia thing, okay? The only reason anyone who isn't a TF fan buys the things is because they remember Soundwave's voice being pretty cool and wasn't there that one who, like, turned into a raptor? He was pretty ****ing badass, man. This does not extend to watching a cartoon starring Chromedome no matter how far it reaches to explain how retarded the plot is.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 05:52 PM   #10
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For all of Headmasters faults I do like the Japanese origin of the Headmasters more than the US version, which makes more sense to me because it's a forerunner to the NAIL concept in the IDW comics, and it doesn't split the Headmaster characters into 2 different characters and makes all of the Headmasters a bunch of schizos.

Also most of the Nebulans were so generic in both the comic and the show to have little or no real characterization.

The only thing I remember about Zarak in the comics he couldn't keep his own identity straight, and in The Rebirth he was another wanna be intergalactic dictator. The rest of the Decepticon allied Nebulans, other than Aimless because he was Misfire's partner (and I guess whoever came up with their names thought it was funny) the rest were pretty forgettable.

Not that Nebulans teamed up with the Autobots fared any better in the comics outside of Gaelan/Spike with Cerbros/Fortress Maximus and Hi-Q with Powermaster Optimus Prime were the only ones that both Budiansky and Furman every seemed to remember (and IIRC correctly Furman has stated that back in the day he never cared much for the Head/Target/Power/Micro/Actionmasters and The Pretenders) or care about.

In the The Rebirth Gort (Highbrow) and Arcana (Brainstorm) each got enough lines for me remember to them and what little characterization that they seem to have gotten. I can't recall anything about the characters of Stylor (Chromedome) and Duros (Hardhead) other than their names in either the comics or the show.

If Hasbro wants to do an English-dub then they should just change the names around and throw out the Nebulon-partner concept altogether and just have the Headmasters be what they are in the orginal Japanese version: a group of NAILs that have finally proclaimed their allegiance to either the Autobots or the Decepticons.

The reason why I seem to be picking on the Marvel comics versions of the Head/Target/Powermasters is simple they were the ones that actually did use the Head/Target/Powermaster concept more than IDW which seems to have pretty much ended with All Hail Megatron when Sideswipe pulled the plug on Hunter. Dreamwave only mentioned the various masters it in their More Than Meets the Eye profile series.
 



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Old 2012-04-30, 06:50 PM   #11
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I'm actually surprised Hasbro never thought of bringing over Headmasters and Masterforce (Victory features too few of the same toys) and slapping a quick nasty dub with the correct names over them as a bit of cheap extra promotion at the time. It's not as if they were worried about producing high quality TV as anyone who has seen the Dic Joe show would know (and as much as we mock the Star dub for doing it, the Masterforce humans original names are just about as stupid as giving them the American names. Hell, there's at least one real person called Optimus Prime out there, which is one more than there is Ginrai).
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 07:36 PM   #12
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TBH, I suspect all the little factors (dub + violence editing + trying to get it to show in some sort of order so as not to actively confuse viewers) added up to too much hassle. I suspect Hasbro were only vaguely aware it was happening anyway - for most of the 1980s their relationship was a lot looser than it is now
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:22 PM   #13
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It also features hands-down the most shameless bit of toy promo in TF history, as Broadcast and Soundwave have their wannabe-epic showdown..
Here is NEW SOUNDWAVE.
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:23 PM   #14
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The Transformers world would be a lot duller without the Star dub wouldn't it?
 
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Old 2012-04-30, 08:55 PM   #15
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Damn straight, it's about the only thing that makes it watchable.

"So, Fortress Maximus has come himself, huh?"

[twat]Technically, though, the dub was made by Omni Productions and should be known as the Omni dub. It's a distressingly common misconception about Transformers that it's called the Star TV dub. I bet you don't even know what date King Atlas' name was trademarked, do you?[/twat]
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 01:00 AM   #16
relak
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Whoa, wait a minute. You're talking about putting this on TV or something and expecting normal people to watch it? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That is ****ing priceless.
nono, just for DVD.

And if you get verteran Transformers voice actors like Peter Cullen and Frank Welker to reprise their roles and newer ones to take on the new roles (Gary Chalk and David Kaye as Zarak and Fortress Maximus respectively) or even easter egg worthy self-referencial casting (gundam voice actors Brad Swaile, Kirby Morrow, Scott McNeil and Mark Hildreth as the 4 main headmasters) that would definitely increase the "pull factor".
The internet LOVES easter egg casting.

Quote:
For all of Headmasters faults I do like the Japanese origin of the Headmasters more than the US version, which makes more sense to me because it's a forerunner to the NAIL concept in the IDW comics, and it doesn't split the Headmaster characters into 2 different characters and makes all of the Headmasters a bunch of schizos.
Thats also another possibility. IT would tie in rather well with episodes like "Fight or Flee".

Like i said, the edits i mentioned are more for removing the goofier aspects of the show. If it proves that there is not enough nebulan footage to splice in then the nebulan origin would have to be excluded.

Quote:
violence editing
yea, cos back then you had to cut from physical film.
Nowadays, everything is on computer. So to edit the series today would be a lot more cost effective

Quote:
The Transformers world would be a lot duller without the Star dub wouldn't it?
I agree. Headmasters was my very first exposure to Transformers and it made for many many unforgettable re-enactments in the playground.

"BUDDHA TRANSFORMATION!!!"
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 03:30 AM   #17
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Same thing applies. Nobody bought it when it was last out on DVD. Only fans knew how bad the extant dub was.
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 04:58 AM   #18
relak
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Same thing applies. Nobody bought it when it was last out on DVD. Only fans knew how bad the extant dub was.
Nobody bought it because nothing was changed.
It was still the same horrible show, complete with the goofy elements and bad voice acting.


Plus pretty much most 90s children in Asia where the dub was most prevalent also knows how bad the dub is.

Like i said, having "named" or familiar voice actors as opposed to the bunch of unknowns from omni, would be the first "pull factor".

Having the promise of getting rid of all the goofy elements would be the second.

It's all in how you advertise it.
As far as i know, the Takara collection came out to little fanfare that basically said "yes this is the same old goofy show you kids heard about. Go have a laugh".
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 07:44 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
Damn straight, it's about the only thing that makes it watchable.

"So, Fortress Maximus has come himself, huh?"
That explains the faces he was pulling at Danny. "This will take your mind off that meteorite".

Quote:
[twat]Technically, though, the dub was made by Omni Productions and should be known as the Omni dub. It's a distressingly common misconception about Transformers that it's called the Star TV dub. I bet you don't even know what date King Atlas' name was trademarked, do you?[/twat]
You do that so well, it's almost as if you actually are a twat.

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Originally Posted by relak View Post
And if you get verteran Transformers voice actors like Peter Cullen and Frank Welker to reprise their roles and newer ones to take on the new roles (Gary Chalk and David Kaye as Zarak and Fortress Maximus respectively) or even easter egg worthy self-referencial casting (gundam voice actors Brad Swaile, Kirby Morrow, Scott McNeil and Mark Hildreth as the 4 main headmasters) that would definitely increase the "pull factor".
The internet LOVES easter egg casting.
You'd never, ever get Welker and Cullen for this. Prime is the first cartoon in a quarter century to be able to afford them, and it obviously has a much higher voice casting budget than any previous TF cartoon from the sheer number of name (OK, we're talking cult following rather than Tom Cruise but still more impressive than the mostly just strong voice actors the previously shows have used) actors on the show. No way even something as recent as Animated could have brought in The Rock for five minutes.

And could you really sell it on Cullen's involvement if he's only in it so briefly?

And the parts of the internet that would be interested in Headmasters already own it and would almost certainly prefer unedited episodes anyway. The IDW Beast Wars Sourcebook featured lots of stuff designed to make the Japanese Beast shows less "Silly" and all it did was piss off those that liked that stuff. I can't see this idea doing anything but the same.



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Originally Posted by relak View Post
Nobody bought it because nothing was changed.
It was still the same horrible show, complete with the goofy elements and bad voice acting.
It's goofy, but that's faithful to the show. A fun thing to do is put on the Star Omni dub alongslide the subtitles and compare them, they're 90% the same most of the time. It's an inherently slightly silly show. And to be honest, that's mostly what the more general buyer this would need to sell to to make it viable would expect from an 80's kids cartoon anyway (and mostly they'd be right).

I also have to agree with what (IIRC) Speng's once pointed out, the bloke who plays all the lead villains in the dub is really having a ball and huge, huge fun. He almost makes up single handedly for all the other poor acting.

Actually, lets give the dub some, if not love then at least sympathy. They obviously weren't given a large budget, a huge amount of time (the UK comic got a letter mentioning Metalhawk from Malaysia in 1990, if the show had been doing the rounds for a while it was probably dubbed fairly soon after the Japanese broadcast. Which makes sense if it was intended to promote the same toyline. Actually, I wonder if some of the use of Western names is down to that being used on the toys there?) nor much reference material.

Under those terms (and this is pre-internet and wiki as well) they did as reasonable a job as anyone was going too. And they weren't trying to make something that would be watched and mocked line by line twenty years later. I suspect if anyone involved was aware of fandoms lengthy analysis of their work they'd find the whole thing a bit puzzling. It's certainly up to the standards of some of the Unicron trilogy dubbing as well.

Quote:
It's all in how you advertise it.
As far as i know, the Takara collection came out to little fanfare that basically said "yes this is the same old goofy show you kids heard about. Go have a laugh".
I don't know how America and Aus did it, but over here it was promoted pretty much fairly, as never before released in the West Japanese shows that are a bit different. The UK sets were aimed squarely at the fans (telling they're the only ones to have any substantial UK originated special features in those bloody good McFeely commentaries) and seem to have done well enough on those terms (in that we'd have never had all three out if they hadn't at least turned a small profit. Even if there's a bit of cost cutting on the second two sets with no English track and covers by a then pretty much unknown Nick Roche who was likely cheaper than Wildman. Stop that laughing at the back you).

I think expecting anything more than that would be insanely optimistic, and certainly I can't see ideas like an all star cast or extensive re-editing would be financially viable. Far better to stick on a small scale selling to people who like the Japanese stuff than try and draw in those who probably wouldn't be that interested anyway.
 
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Old 2012-05-01, 12:58 PM   #20
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Nobody bought it because nothing was changed.
It was still the same horrible show, complete with the goofy elements and bad voice acting.
Flip, flop. The only Western people (y'know, the ones the DVDs were aimed at, and the ones this new magic fix everything dub would also be aimed at) who knew of the thing's existance and the poor dub were a few thousand fans. Metronome's packaging and marketing of the DVDs were - if anything - downright deceptive as they treated the thing like a proper cartoon, even removing the dub tracks on Masterforce and Victory because, hey, Transformers is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Make up your mind - is this aimed at the people who have pre-existing knowledge (ROCK FACT: There really aren't many of these)? Or some imaginary larger market who don't know the first thing about it? Who are these people?

Quote:
Like i said, having "named" or familiar voice actors as opposed to the bunch of unknowns from omni, would be the first "pull factor".
Pull factor for who? What sort of familiar actors are we talking about? A-list talent? Or 'names' like David Kaye that really aren't well known beyond fandom anyway (seriously, people who don't already watch far too many cartoons don't know who the **** Frank Welker and Peter Cullen are).

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Having the promise of getting rid of all the goofy elements would be the second.
How? The only people who know about the goofy elements are, outside of parts of Asia, Transformers fans. The rest don't know or care that it exists. People buy G1 DVDs for a quick nostalgia boost, not for something they haven't seen before. Most of the market are a bit iffy about Season 3 because it doesn't have hardly any Optimus Prime or Dinobots at all, and who's this purple tit doing Megatron's job and where the **** is Starscream?

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
And the parts of the internet that would be interested in Headmasters already own it and would almost certainly prefer unedited episodes anyway.
Yup, the SERIOUS BUSINESS crowd are happy enough with the subbed releases (well, insomuch as Wikitards are ever happy with anything that doesn't personally thank them for existing).


There's no market for this. Fans have made their peace with the Omni versions or watch it subbed. The otaku/weabo crowd will never come in because the animation's not up to it and the whole concept of Transformers is too kiddy. The casuals don't know who the **** Chromedome is, and they don't want to know either. Kids won't be interested because it looks shite compared to Prime. Hasbro won't be interested because it's not worth the effort seeing as nobody would buy it.

If there was any demand, it would have happened at least a decade ago.
 
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