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Old 2012-05-01, 07:46 PM   #21
inflatable dalek
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
Metronome's packaging and marketing of the DVDs were - if anything - downright deceptive as they treated the thing like a proper cartoon, even removing the dub tracks on Masterforce and Victory because, hey, Transformers is SERIOUS BUSINESS.
I don't know, considering they were aiming it at people who liked the show rather than hating it I can't see any reason they'd have promoted it as "A Bit Shit Really".

I was under the impression the dub was dropped because paying the extra for it simply ate too much into the meagre budget, and ultimately the majority of people who were buying just weren't interested in it (probably already having it already in some form or another).

But that says it all about how limited the market for an English language version is. Of the three countries outside of Japan to do a DVD release, I think the Australian is the only one to include the English on more than Headmasters (and even they didn't do all of Masterforce, just selected episodes IIRC). And, whilst I'm sure Headmasters was always going to sell better than the others anyway due to being the first one people tried to see if they liked it and indeed being more recognisably Transformers, they still seem to have done OK within the criteria of small scale obscure stuff for the companies selling them.

I do kind of wish they'd continued with the dub as I tend to watch Transformers whilst doing other things (ironing, tickling the cat ect) rather than focusing, but if it wasn't viable based on the Headmasters sales that's fair enough. Oddly, for the Shout release, Hasbro were apparently really against the dub being included suggesting not only that the no fun people are in high places these days but that they never even noticed the UK and Oz releases.

I wonder how much the using of pre-existing fan subs for the final two UK sets rather than specially commissioned ones was down to keeping the budget down and how much it was down to the Headmasters ones being full of errors (that had the unfortunate side effect of making the "The dubs good for a laugh because it's so wrong" sleeve notes look rather more mean spirited than they otherwise would have).

Another sign of how tight things were to get these shows out in the UK is how much of the work on them was done by just Chris McFeely. Commentaries, booklets, back cover blurb, Anglicising the fan subs for the last two sets (and writing a long list of corrections for the Headmasters ones that got lost in the post) and no doubt singing the theme tune and writing the theme tune. If he stumbles on this thread he'd probably be able to explain the logistics of releasing the show better than my guess work, but it looks like he had to shoulder a lot of the work for it to happen.


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(seriously, people who don't already watch far too many cartoons don't know who the **** Frank Welker and Peter Cullen are).
Fun tangent: When watching Darkness Rising with a friend he was both surprised and impressed that they'd got "The guy from the films" playing Prime. And then deeply disappointed they'd got some noob playing Megatron rather than Weaving.
 
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Old 2012-05-13, 10:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I was under the impression the dub was dropped because paying the extra for it simply ate too much into the meagre budget, and ultimately the majority of people who were buying just weren't interested in it (probably already having it already in some form or another).
It was.

Unlike in the US, in the UK ratings are mandatory and cost a shitload of money, and Metrodome didn't feel like paying what amounts to several thousands of pounds just to include a substandard dub.

Shout! Factory could've gotten away with it easily in the US side but I think Hasbro vetoed the idea there.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 01:02 AM   #23
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f there was any demand, it would have happened at least a decade ago.
THe problem is that a demand wasnt GENERATED.

Saying that there has been no demand for a re-edit and re-dub just because the original subbed and badly dubbed release didnt have a demand doesnt really hold well.

ITs like saying there aint a demand for Oven baked fish just because deep fried fish and chips aint selling well.

Remember, im not suggesting a re-release. But a whole different product.

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Shout! Factory could've gotten away with it easily in the US side but I think Hasbro vetoed the idea there.
Of course. Why include a shite dub that you have to pay extra money for?
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 07:20 AM   #24
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...but you are suggest a rerelease...aren't you? even if a new dub were done it would have to be released in some form to recoup the costs.

Again, there is no demand because no one outside the Transformers fanbase knows who these characters are and we're twenty plus years beyond the point where anyone would have been interested. Those in the fanbase who are interested either put up with the subs or di their own dub. For a product with niche interest, redubbing an aincient cartoon wouldn't have been financially viable in terms of any likely return - remember, the TF cartoon was an extension of the toyline and served to advertise the toys - none of which are available now.

This is a cartoon as well. Exactly whom would you pitch this at? Today's children probably wouldn't have much interest in such poorly animated fare with nonsensical storylines. Childrens cartoons have moved so far beyond the naive storytelling of this era of Transformers that this would just be an embarassment if Hasbro were to release this today. Again, fandom has the stuff available if they're absolutely desperate to check this stuff out.

The original TF cartoon was axed due to falling ratings and a decline in toy sales.

Star TV did their own dubs because there was no interest in the west for further cartoons.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 08:02 AM   #25
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...but you are suggest a rerelease...aren't you? even if a new dub were done it would have to be released in some form to recoup the costs.

Again, there is no demand because no one outside the Transformers fanbase knows who these characters are and we're twenty plus years beyond the point where anyone would have been interested. Those in the fanbase who are interested either put up with the subs or di their own dub. For a product with niche interest, redubbing an aincient cartoon wouldn't have been financially viable in terms of any likely return - remember, the TF cartoon was an extension of the toyline and served to advertise the toys - none of which are available now.

This is a cartoon as well. Exactly whom would you pitch this at? Today's children probably wouldn't have much interest in such poorly animated fare with nonsensical storylines. Childrens cartoons have moved so far beyond the naive storytelling of this era of Transformers that this would just be an embarassment if Hasbro were to release this today. Again, fandom has the stuff available if they're absolutely desperate to check this stuff out.

The original TF cartoon was axed due to falling ratings and a decline in toy sales.

Star TV did their own dubs because there was no interest in the west for further cartoons.
A re-release would be just to repackage the ORIGINAL HEadmasters show and sell it.

What i suggest is a complete RE-DO.
Yes it uses the same animation but completely re-edited into a better story.

Its already asserted that there is no demand for TF:headmasters AS IT IS.(meaning previous releases that just repackaged the show)

Hence dont bother releasing it AS IT IS but release it as how it is not. Releasing it as a completely new product.

GET RID OF THE NONSENSICAL STORYLINE for one thing. Re-write the whole thing and re-dub it, editing out the nonsensical stuff.
In that way, the only thing preventing people from picking it up is the aged animation.

Seriously once you cut out all the nonsense and cheese, Tf Headmasters is a galaxy spanning space epic that can rival even Gundam.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:13 AM   #26
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Again, if you're working with the original animated material, would it work and would it be acceptable to today's standards? As previously discussed - there's an awful of lot of stuff you'd have to trim and that's going to disrupt the continuity of the show - how many battles towards the back half of the series are broken off to demonstrate the Head swapping gimmick, for instance?

Realistically, is anyone going to finance such a project? TBH, if you're going to re-write the story and re-record dialogue...you're halfway to making a new show entirely. you're basically doing what the recent He-Man and Thundercats cartoons are doing to their source material, and we have Prime now, so I'm not sure there'd be any 'will' from Hasbro for such a project - just look how unhappy they were with ReGeneration One...
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by relak View Post
THe problem is that a demand wasnt GENERATED.

Saying that there has been no demand for a re-edit and re-dub just because the original subbed and badly dubbed release didnt have a demand doesnt really hold well.

ITs like saying there aint a demand for Oven baked fish just because deep fried fish and chips aint selling well.

Remember, im not suggesting a re-release. But a whole different product.


Of course. Why include a shite dub that you have to pay extra money for?
Once again you've managed to miss the point on a quantum scale. Let's see if we can break this down into some sort of ready reckoner before having to revert to diagrams.

- The time for this project was 1987, when these toys were in the shops, when slicing anime to shreds for Western audiences was a lot more common and when Sunbow had a strong voice cast (Cullen, Welker, Gautier). For various reasons discussed above, they chose not too. And there's no need for it now, apart from for members of fandumb like yourself who think a re-dub and re-write are all that's keeping the thing from being a Gundam-style teen-and-up mature epic. Hasbro and the majority of demographics aren't interested in this, or it would have happened either in 1987 or ahead of the first DVD release.

- What you want is a top-to-bottom 'remake' of Headmasters using (the bulk of?) the original animation, a streamlined storyline stripped of goofiness and a professional 'big name' dubbing cast. What everyone else is saying is that this will have no reach. The animation is dated, the majority of the cast wouldn't appeal to anyone beyond fandom even with rewrites, the central concept doesn't have the mature appeal to make it a niche anime hit in the West a la Gurren Lagan, Evangelion or whatever and no amount of Mackere work is going to change that. The animation has aged and is just as obselete as the original Japanese dialogue and storyline.

The list of reasons why this wouldn't work and why no-one would be interested in it have been listed repeatedly in ways that you don't seem to actually understand if your habit of grabbing out of context quotes and continuing on your blinkered dribblings with little regard or counter for what anyone else is saying.

So, let's change tack here. Outline to me, scene by scene, the first episode of this new remixed Headmasters cartoon. Indicate scripting changes, cuts (and any 'patches' from other episodes/series), select a voice cast and so on. Because whenever anyone points out the myriad flaws in your thinking, you say "no, not like that" but crucially leave out any details. So let's hear what you're actually thinking instead actually plotted out to see whether it's the wet-brained fantasy you're making it appear, or whether it actually has legs.

It should be pretty easy for the first episode TBH as that will have minimal continuity, so we'll see what you come up with there and move on.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:42 AM   #28
relak
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Originally Posted by Skyquake87 View Post
Again, if you're working with the original animated material, would it work and would it be acceptable to today's standards? As previously discussed - there's an awful of lot of stuff you'd have to trim and that's going to disrupt the continuity of the show - how many battles towards the back half of the series are broken off to demonstrate the Head swapping gimmick, for instance?

Realistically, is anyone going to finance such a project? TBH, if you're going to re-write the story and re-record dialogue...you're halfway to making a new show entirely. you're basically doing what the recent He-Man and Thundercats cartoons are doing to their source material, and we have Prime now, so I'm not sure there'd be any 'will' from Hasbro for such a project - just look how unhappy they were with ReGeneration One...
Well if the story is going to be rewritten as a Gundam-styled space epic, then the only thing keeping people back will be the dated animation.

Head swapping gimmick need not be cut out but re-written as a way to adapt to changing combat situations.

And like i said, it wont be a "per episode" edit. Whole episodes will be spliced together or even scenes from across episodes to create whole new episodes, like what they did in Robotech and Harlock.
In the end, i expect to be down to 26 whole episodes only.

Furthermore, the examples you cited of He-man and Thundercats (or even TF PRime for that matter) are complete reboots.
I'm talking about marketing this as a continuation of G1, not a reboot.


In production, a majority of the money goes into footage production. Since this is just an edit job, it would save that money which can in turn go into getting veteran TF Voice actors to reprise their roles.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 09:45 AM   #29
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First episode outline, please.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 01:14 PM   #30
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In other news, I've been watching Victory (Thanks again Cliffy, btw). I'm about half way through and have decided that I now have to get a complete Liokaiser and a Landcross.
 

Last edited by Hound; 2012-05-14 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 2012-05-14, 01:31 PM   #31
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Not sure how common it is now, but there used to be some respectable KOs of both of them
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 02:25 PM   #32
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Well the Landcross one is ok, but the Liokaiser one is crap and also doesn't come with the breastplates.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 06:41 PM   #33
inflatable dalek
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No love for Dinoking?

I think the real sign of how little interest there would be in a re-edited Headmastrs is that, based on this thread, even the fans don't want it. And lets face it, if people want a serious new TF show with Cullen and Welker they'll just watch Prime.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 06:59 PM   #34
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Well the Landcross one is ok, but the Liokaiser one is crap and also doesn't come with the breastplates.
There is one out there with the companions (had Gaihawk for a while), but it might be rarer now (you don't seem to see Raiden KOs around as much as you used to either).

Not sure I've ever seen a boot of Dinoking/Monstructor - guess the shells make it not worth doing.
 
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Old 2012-05-14, 10:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
No love for Dinoking?
Too much gold plastic = Too expensive.

Yeah, I can't seem to find any knockoff Breastforce sets that come with the breastplates.

As for a redubbed and edited version of Headmasters to replace a 4th season of TFs, I'd love to see something like that. I'm just not going to argue something stupid like it being genuinely possible when anyone with half a brain knows there'd be no way it could be financially possible. It's a nice thought though.

Personally, and I've said before, I'd like to see a complete reworking of the G1 cartoon, with less focus on selling toys and more on great character stories, while staying as faithful to the plots and character designs as possible. I'd also like that to extend farther into the toyline than the cartoon got and adapting the Japanese cartoons into it while including the US toys from those years also.
 
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Old 2012-05-15, 02:10 AM   #36
relak
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
No love for Dinoking?

I think the real sign of how little interest there would be in a re-edited Headmastrs is that, based on this thread, even the fans don't want it. And lets face it, if people want a serious new TF show with Cullen and Welker they'll just watch Prime.
Not just Welker and Cullen, but Susan Blu, DAvid Kaye, Gary Chalk, Scott McNeil. Anyone who has ever voice a TRansformer

Outline?
Working on it.
 
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Old 2012-05-15, 07:40 PM   #37
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Not just Welker and Cullen, but Susan Blu, DAvid Kaye, Gary Chalk, Scott McNeil. Anyone who has ever voice a TRansformer

Then if you had a choice between the American and Canadian casts which would you go for? There's different union and salary scales involved so Chalk and McNeil (or most of the BW/UT cast) couldn't appear in a show recorded in LA and Welker and Cullen (or most of the G1, RID, Animated and Prime cast) couldn't appear in shows recorded in Vancouver. Some do go both ways- David Kaye has now moved to LA and is a member of SAG (though possibly wouldn't now be able to work on a non union Canadian show) and Scot McNeil talked at AA about having done some illicit LA recording when one of his shows moved down there, but for the most part depending on what country your in limits the theoretical cast.

And again, I don't think there's anyway that this would be able to afford Cullen or Welker, or indeed any of the more established actors (there's a reason few of the G1 actors who are still working get used anymore and that's because after a quarter century their salaries have reached a point out of reach of most toy based shows. Prime obviously has a bit more of a budget for this sort of thing but would obviously rather spend the cash on actors parents watching with their kids would get excited about).

I wouldn't be surprised if Cullen has some sort of general, very lucrative, "Official Voice of Optimus Prime" contract that covers the films, Prime and a certain amount of secondary material like Rescue Bots cameos and the ride. BUt Headmasters would fall outside of that remit.

And would they want to do it? The two of them already spend a good chunk of their year doing TF work, maybe they'd like to do other things on their off time?
 
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Old 2012-05-16, 02:58 AM   #38
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There's different union and salary scales involved so Chalk and McNeil (or most of the BW/UT cast) couldn't appear in a show recorded in LA and Welker and Cullen (or most of the G1, RID, Animated and Prime cast) couldn't appear in shows recorded in Vancouver
Seriously?? But LA and Vancouver Voice actors have recorded for same shows before.
Most recent example: My Little Pony (Tara Strong lives in LA while Tabitha st Germaine lives in Canada)
Other examples include 2002's He-man (Cam Clark with Gary Chalk) and Marvel animated productions like Planet Hulk (Rick Wasserman from CA while Paul Dobson in Canada)

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there's a reason few of the G1 actors who are still working get used anymore
i thought thats cos they retired......

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I wouldn't be surprised if Cullen has some sort of general, very lucrative, "Official Voice of Optimus Prime" contract
that wont be a problem since Prime is barely in there for a few episodes.
 
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Old 2012-05-18, 01:58 PM   #39
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hmm i guess someone has done my work for me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNlGKFc3HHk

Basically thats kinda what i had in mind. Complete with replacing the sound effects with G1 ones and the music.

But with a whole lot better voice acting and without that uneeded bit where Mindwipe accidentally knocked out snapdragon and Galvatron stepped on him.
 
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Old 2012-05-18, 02:31 PM   #40
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Right - so the plan is to basically make it as much like the original G1 cartoon as possible?It's still turgid and cheesy - still packed with people standing around dictating the obvious to each other. And you think people are going to go out and buy that in droves?
 
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