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Old 2002-05-01, 08:35 PM   #21
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Don't you think it's rather futile for Starscream to try and destroy a shuttle (which was half entombed in rock anyway) with his arm lasers? He'd need much more powerful weapons to do that. A bit dumb of him, I would think.

Futile for Starscream, but not the whole Con army. Of course, when Megatron says the autobots have taken their last flight, who's going to question him (besides Starscream.) If they would have concentrated their firepower, they could have done it. Especially since the engines are still sticking out of the mountain. Detonate the engines; destroy the ark.

=================================

Starscream: Megatron is no more, I now lead the Decepticons... <snip>. From now on, you will take orders from me, and my first command is: No further attempts to contact Earth.

So yes, Starscream WAS Shockwave's superior.


Whereever Megs is, sure, I believe Starscream is 2nd in command. But not on Cybertron. Megatron didn't trust him, and I can't imagine Megs would say his quasi-slave is outranked by someone who's just itching to overthrow him. Now, that should mean that Shockwave becomes the new leader in the event of default, but remember, Shockwave of the cartoon clearly doesn't have neither the leadership capabilities nor the actual desire to lead, otherwise he wouldn't have sat around for four million years waiting to hear from Megatron. He needed someone to follow.

=================================

Yes, if he really wanted him destroyed, he should have simply opened up Megatron and destroyed his personality circuits. Or dumped him into a sun.

How can they dump him in the sun when there isn't (well, isn't supposed to be, who knows if Astrotrain was refering to landing, or just lying to get on Starscream's goods side) enough fuel to even make it to Cybertron? And having Starscream kill Megs before throwing him overboard would make the other Cons even more suspicious about Starscream, and that's not something he needs in his first crucial days as leader. Imagine him blowing Megs's head off and tossing his corpse out; what's he going to say? Killing Megs before throwing him out is critical to their survival in what manner? None. Besides, even if Starscream pulled an Ultra Magnus on Megs, the only difference there would have been is a lack of dialogue between Unicron and Megatron; his body would have been immediately reformatted without any back-talk. Totally vaporizing Megs would do the trick, but since they've been fighting all day and night, I doubt they have the energy. And there's the aforementioned suspicion. Plus that's energy that could go to Astrotrain.

=================================

That's such a stupid statement, I'm not even going to bother talking about it.

What, you can't take a joke?

*checks to make sure this is really the TF Archive.

=================================

It's absolutely rediculous to think that there were only six Autobots left on the entire planet. I know you're trying to justify an arguement here, but it's just unreasonable...

Why is it unreasonable? Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that we never see these massive legions of bots? (Yeah, I know, we saw them in the movie, yeah, for about five seconds, and then the original jets and the coneheads took off and attacked Unicron. I guess all the other Cons forgot they could fly.) And the season II characters DEFINITELY didn't come from Cybertron, because they suffered from Cybertonium deterioration, which is caused by the long exposure to earth's atmosphere. And with all due respect to the energon bitch, do you really think Megs would take Reflector with him and leave someone like, Blitzwing, behind? Or Astrotrain, he'd have come in pretty handy. Even he's not that stupid (although he's close.) And consider all the stupid, single-appearance jets in MTMTE. Why bother showing them when they could have shown the coneheads? Then they wouldn't have mysteriously disappeared from episode 4 on. And how come when the Combaticons took Cybertron, it was just Shockwave and his sentry drones guarding the planet? I think there's a few TFs on the planet we don't ordinarily see, like the other pyramid ships in Divide and Conquer, and maybe a couple more autobots, but not much.

=================================

Starscream never defeated the Autobots, not once. In fact, in Roll For It, the Decepticons get their rear ends handed to them by the Autobots under Starscream's leadership.
Thundercracker: Some leader you turned out to be, Starscream.

Tell that Prime when Screamer and his jets turned Optimus into a canoe in Divide and Conquer.

=================================

Granted, two good examples of Megatron's bad leadership. Gotta remember though, that it's an 80s kids show, the bad guys HAVE to lose.

But they don't have to be so blatantly stupid.
 
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Old 2002-05-01, 09:17 PM   #22
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I have an idea. We'll agree to disagree. Howsat?

-Ss
 


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Old 2002-05-01, 09:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sixswitch
I have an idea. We'll agree to disagree. Howsat? :)

-Ss
NO!!!

I couldn't resist. The fine points, well, they're not all that fine, they're kind of hazy, and thus quibbling over them is pointless, especially considering their place in the big picture. The big picture is that despite his faults (which I feel are exagerated) Starscream had potential.

I think most of the flack he gets comes from his voice, which was a good voice; it helped give that extra something to his cocky attitude, and it sounded slightly unhinged.

It's certainly better than that perpetual dozen-frogs-in-the-throat sound of Megatron's. That guy needed some Halls Vapor Action, pronto.

And who would deny the potential of Starscream's powers as a ghost. The ultimate infiltraitor, the ultimate spy, and sadly, completely wasted. I guess they needed the air time to show more of Galvatron beating the living sh*t out of Cyclonus for no particular reason.
 
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Old 2002-05-01, 09:38 PM   #24
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I never said I dislike Starscream. I just said that I reckon Megs is better.
 


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Old 2002-05-01, 09:43 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Snake
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Teletran-1's repair beam was confined to a limited area. Almost all the Decepticons who were revived had to be physically transported into it. Remember too, that the Decepticons were low on energy and on a strange new planet as far as they were concerned. For all Megatron knew, the planet was inhabited by huge metal-eating monsters. using scarce energy to destroy comatose enemies who won't be a problem barring a fluke occurrence. Megatron probably thought he should get organized and explore the planet first and kill off the Autobots later when they had energy to spare. In More Than Meets the Eye, he did send Soundwave toget Teletran-1's files on energy resources. This strongly suggests that Megatron intended to come back to the Ark at a latter date. After all, as far as he knew the Autobots were not going anywhere.


The fact that the repair beam is confined isn't an issue (besides, it can swivle, it just didn't fire a beam straight forward. In fact, it swivled left, revived Thundercracker, then swivled right and fired on an empty space.) Future sesmic activity could easily have knocked an autobot into the repair beam. Even if the Cons were REALLY low on fuel, they could have siphoned-off the Ark's power, which had enough juice to rebuild the autobots. Destroying the already-damaged autobots wouldn't have been THAT taxing. They could have dumped them in the volcano's magma (or just move them away from Teletran for that matter.) Or they could simply open up the autobots and vaporize their personality components and lasercores/sparks. Teletran couldn't have fixed them with that kind of damage. And Teletran couldn't have fixed anything if they'd have used it for target practice. The Cons could have found power on their own; it's not that hard. They probably only went back to Teletran because of the autobots' revival; with the bots back, they have to move quick. They could have taken their time if the autobots were destroyed.





The repair beam had a very limited range. Only Skywarp was actually hit directly by it. And once again, the decepticons did not know what awaited them outside the Ark. They only discovered that earth was rich in energy resources after they had left the Ark. As the decepticons seem to burn energy very quickly when they fight, the amount saved by not destroying comatose Autobots might have made the difference had the Decepticons found themselves in a pitched battle soon after departing the Ark. In this case Megatron's decision was influenced by a lack of information about the planet. Had he known that earth was weakly defended and energy-rich when he woke up, he probably would have ordered the Autobots destroyed.



------------------------------------------------

When did Starscream ever express any intention to destroy the Ark? All he did was seal the entrance way as a "going away present". An act which was moronic in retrospect because he ran out of ammo when he tried to usurp Megatron later and because Megatron seemed to plan on returning the Ark later.

Sealed the entrace? It seemed like only his last shot hit rock. His going away present seemed to be a volley of gunfire to me. Remember how much he wanted to destroy the autobots during the trip to earth? Same thing. Megatron wanted to return to the ark? Then wouldn't he have mentioned that, instead of his over-confident blabbering about the autobots taking their last flight. Sounds like he thinks it's a waste of energy, since the autobots are "clearly" dead.


Given that Starscream didn't raise any objections to leaving the comatose Autobots behind intact, shouldn't we assume that he shared Megatron's assessment and that his attempts to bury the Ark were more akin to sealing the corpses in a makeshift tomb.


And wasn't the attack in question i]after[/i] several other battles, in which we see Starscream firing multiple times and even using his Null Rays.


But by that time the decepticons had already acquired considerable stockpiles of energon cubes, so the Decepticon's energy situation was not as dire.


Yeah, it's a dumb idea, because he's going to suddenly run out of energy, despite that not being a problem in the past.



It was a recurring problem throughout the series though. Quite a few times the Decepticons had to retreat because they ran out of ammo for their guns. They do seem to burn energy at a faster rate than the autobots do. Megatrons constant obsession with acquiring energy often seemed to take precedence over destroying the Autobots.


------------------------------------------------

As the ranking Decepticon there, Starscream could have just ignored Shockwave's suggestion and executed Prime and Elita-1 on the spot. Obviously he thought that Shockwave's idea was a good one or else he would not have gone along with it

WRONG. Revenge of Bruticus:

"We can resume control of Cybertron." - Starscream
"I am guardian of Cybertron; Megatron appointed me."

Now, if Starscream was Shockwave's superior, he could have immediately pulled rank and told him off. So what stopped him? His humbleness? Nope; he had no authority; Shockwave is the kingfish on Cybertron (unless Megs shows up.)


But at the time, Starscream had been exiled from the Decepticons. it is unlikely that he would have retained his rank in that situation. I believe the Countdown to Extinction precedent is more accurate.



------------------------------------------------

How was Meatron supposed to know that Chip Chase was immune to acid rain?

Here's a better question; why give your enemies any opportunity to win? Remember; KILL YOUR ENEMIES.


Thats exactly what he tried to do! In that same episode, he led an army of decepticons and laid siege to Autobot HQ, trashing nearly every Autobot. Megatron's real folly was in accepting Optimus Prime's challenge despite being dangerously low on fuel.




------------------------------------------------

"Sure, Screamer seemed incompetent at times"

How about all the time.

Hmm; all the time...nope. Megatron lead successful retreats; that's it. But I guess Starscream was really incompetent for not counting on Unicron being there when he dumped Megs overboard from Astrotrain. Or not counting on Megatron surviving an explosion that knocked a metal planet out of Earth's orbit. Or not counting on Mirage sabotaging their space cruiser.

Granted, Megatron was often forced to retreat, but his main focus was always the acquisition of energy. That was where he succeeded and that was in large part how the Decepticons were able to obtain such an advantageous position by the time the movie came out. In contrast, Optimus Prime won every battle but was still in big trouble by 2005 largely due to not having sufficient energy on hand. After all, what is the point of winning relatively minor skirmishes when you can't summon enough resoources to mount a general offensive when you really need to.



------------------------------------------------

And comparing Starscream to Scourge?! Did you WATCH the show?!!

Yes.

Hmm...no you didn't.


Both commanded a group of useless generic flunkies, both schemed to take command, and both of them seemed to screw up everything they tried. I'd sayt he comparison is valid.

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I am asssuming that most the movie and Season 3 characters were also on Cybertron during this time. Ultra Magnus is supposed to be very good at defensive warfare. The earthbound Autobots also presumably made an effort to stop Megatron. Optimus Prime probably would not leave Cybertron as weakly defended as you seem to think.

I don't buy it, because we never saw them at all (because they were made for the movie, and hence didn't exist.) The movie characters came from the same place the season II characters did.

------------------------------------------------

Yet many of his plans worked despite their inherent stupidity, just watch Megatron's Master Plan.

So Megs managed to trick the Humans. He still didn't destroy the autobots and he lost in the end, as usual. So that's one partially-successful plan. Look the pathetic failures of the others. Starscream had lots of those that were far more brilliant, and you think he's a moron.

Once again, you are working from the assumtion that Megatron actually wants to destroy the Autobots. Most of his plans involve getting lots of energy, which is what the Cybertronian war turns on. You should not judge a plan to be a failure because it did not achieve an aim that was never its primary purpose.



------------------------------------------------

There were some episodes, such as SOS Dinobots where he did show that trait.

Not very well as I recall. What did he do...oh yeah, he wasted time (and energon) chaining up the autobots instead of just shooting them on sight.


Of course, he chained them up! How else would the Decepticons be able to hit their targets. you know how sloppy their aim is.



You have to remember; this is the guy who disected Optimus Prime, and just tossed his head away instead of using it for target practice upon removal.


And waste a perfectly good mantlepiece? Surely you jest.

------------------------------------------------

Considering that Starscream still had not overthrown Megatron after twenty freakin years, I have to say that the Screamer's lack of success could be attributed to a little more than bad luck.

Considering how much luck Megatron had, I'm amazed at how an uppercut and a fall from a cliff managed to almost do him in, considering how he bumbled his way through his plans. Remember, a ship loaded with energon cubes explodes with enough force to knock Cybertron, a metal planet, out of it's orbit around earth, but doesn't kill Megs. Right...

 
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Old 2002-05-01, 10:31 PM   #26
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The repair beam had a very limited range. Only Skywarp was actually hit directly by it. And once again, the decepticons did not know what awaited them outside the Ark. They only discovered that earth was rich in energy resources after they had left the Ark. As the decepticons seem to burn energy very quickly when they fight, the amount saved by not destroying comatose Autobots might have made the difference had the Decepticons found themselves in a pitched battle soon after departing the Ark. In this case Megatron's decision was influenced by a lack of information about the planet. Had he known that earth was weakly defended and energy-rich when he woke up, he probably would have ordered the Autobots destroyed.

The beam swivled, look for yourself. And as I said, they could have easily drained the Ark's energy if energy drain was a problem. That in and of itself is another solution to disposing of the autobots: Teletran can't fix them if it has no power to run itself. And besides, if they were low on energy, wouldn't they have mentioned it at sometime. Another good idea; remove said vital components from the autobots, and stomp on them.

----------------------------------

Given that Starscream didn't raise any objections to leaving the comatose Autobots behind intact, shouldn't we assume that he shared Megatron's assessment and that his attempts to bury the Ark were more akin to sealing the corpses in a makeshift tomb.

He wanted to shoot them. Since we never see him functional inside the ark, we'll never known what was said. And a makeshift tomb? Naw; that's more of Dirge type of thing.

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And wasn't the attack in question i]after[/i] several other battles, in which we see Starscream firing multiple times and even using his Null Rays.

But by that time the decepticons had already acquired considerable stockpiles of energon cubes, so the Decepticon's energy situation was not as dire.

Then explain how Starscream's guns kept on firing during their earlier battles, and then after they got all those cubes, he fires one blast, and his gun runs dry. I guess he got some bad energon...

----------------------------------

Once again, you are working from the assumtion that Megatron actually wants to destroy the Autobots. Most of his plans involve getting lots of energy, which is what the Cybertronian war turns on. You should not judge a plan to be a failure because it did not achieve an aim that was never its primary purpose.

Considering how much he ranted about destroying the accursed autobots, you can't call it a stretch. And why do you think he sent the Autobots into the sun? For a vacation? Just getting them off the planet is no good; if they went back to Cybertron, they could always attack the space bridge and come back to Earth when the Cons reveal their true motives. No, to collect the energy they need, they had to eliminate the autobots.

But let's pretend that's not the real aim. What moron throws away a chance to kill his enemies, even if that's a secondary goal? Well, Megatron of course.

----------------------------------

But at the time, Starscream had been exiled from the Decepticons. it is unlikely that he would have retained his rank in that situation. I believe the Countdown to Extinction precedent is more accurate.

And why would a by-the-books type of bot like Shockwave let an exiled traitor help him? It's not very logical to trust Starscream after the recent turn of events. Shockwave would have done better on his own.

----------------------------------

Thats exactly what he tried to do! In that same episode, he led an army of decepticons and laid siege to Autobot HQ, trashing nearly every Autobot. Megatron's real folly was in accepting Optimus Prime's challenge despite being dangerously low on fuel.

No, he tried to do some stupid elaborate death-trap-crap. Instead of letting his soldiers clobber the autobots and make absolutely sure there was no chance of saving Prime, he goes through an elaborate and completely unnecessary gimmick with acid rain. And who was it that suggested attacking the autobot base (yeah, I know, I know, Megatron thought of it first and was going to do it the whole time, but was waiting for someone else to bring it up. Right...)

----------------------------------

Granted, Megatron was often forced to retreat, but his main focus was always the acquisition of energy. That was where he succeeded and that was in large part how the Decepticons were able to obtain such an advantageous position by the time the movie came out. In contrast, Optimus Prime won every battle but was still in big trouble by 2005 largely due to not having sufficient energy on hand. After all, what is the point of winning relatively minor skirmishes when you can't summon enough resoources to mount a general offensive when you really need to.


Often? Yeah, so often that phrase is copyrighted by him. How often was he so incredibly close to winning the war in one fell-swoop, and then ended up blowing it completely. I lost count. And how often did we see energon making it to cybertron, in the unlikely event that Megs and crew managed to escape with it? If they got away with any, it was usually blown up by the autobots about 5 minutes later.

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Both commanded a group of useless generic flunkies, both schemed to take command, and both of them seemed to screw up everything they tried. I'd sayt he comparison is valid.

The jets were useless generic flunkies? The sweeps didn't even have names!!! Scourge schemed, what, once? And he still lost despite having the matrix. And Starscream didn't seem to screw up much, except his attempts at overthrowing Megatron. Oh sure, there was the occasional thing like the steel in "Fire on the Mountain", but was that a screw up, or was it sabotage? Like I said, if he didn't trust Megs with the antimatter formula, how comfortable was he with that crystal weapon?

----------------------------------

Not very well as I recall. What did he do...oh yeah, he wasted time (and energon) chaining up the autobots instead of just shooting them on sight.

Of course, he chained them up! How else would the Decepticons be able to hit their targets. you know how sloppy their aim is.

The TF's marksmanship skills shifted from episode to episode. And if they could get close enough to chain up the autobots, they could have got close enough to press a gun barrel to the autobot's heads and blow their brains out.

----------------------------------

You have to remember; this is the guy who disected Optimus Prime, and just tossed his head away instead of using it for target practice upon removal.

And waste a perfectly good mantlepiece? Surely you jest.

Now, you see Sixswitch, THAT'S a stupid statement
 
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Old 2002-05-01, 10:40 PM   #27
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And with all due respect to the energon bitch, do you really think Megs would take Reflector with him and leave someone like, Blitzwing, behind? Or Astrotrain, he'd have come in pretty handy. Even he's not that stupid (although he's close.)
Reality: the toys weren't made yet.

Fan-canon: who knows? Both Blitzwing and Astrotrain had an penchant for treachery ("Triple Takeover") and pairing them with Starscream right off the bat might not have been a good idea. Besides, Reflector never had the chance to show he had rebellious tendencies, and he served a purpose...stacking Energon cubes.
 


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Old 2002-05-01, 11:07 PM   #28
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Overall, Starscream seemed to serve as the voice of reason that Megatron never listened to. Sure he screwed up a few times, but most of the time, he was telling Megatron that his plan wouldn't work, and when Bedpan Man didn't listen, the plan would fail in exactly the way that Screamer said it would fail in.
 
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Old 2002-05-01, 11:16 PM   #29
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NO!!!

I couldn't resist. The fine points, well, they're not all that fine, they're kind of hazy, and thus quibbling over them is pointless, especially considering their place in the big picture. The big picture is that despite his faults (which I feel are exagerated) Starscream had potential.

I think most of the flack he gets comes from his voice, which was a good voice; it helped give that extra something to his cocky attitude, and it sounded slightly unhinged.



You think his voice was good!? I always thought that voice made him more annoying than Wheelie and Daniel combined.


It's certainly better than that perpetual dozen-frogs-in-the-throat sound of Megatron's. That guy needed some Halls Vapor Action, pronto.

And who would deny the potential of Starscream's powers as a ghost. The ultimate infiltraitor, the ultimate spy, and sadly, completely wasted. I guess they needed the air time to show more of Galvatron beating the living sh*t out of Cyclonus for no particular reason.

Starscream's ghost got more airtime than most of the Season 3 characters did and his ghostly abilities made him the focal point of at least two episodes. Of all the transformers, I would hardly call Starscream an underutilized character. If anything, he was overexposed during all three seasons.
 
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Old 2002-05-01, 11:34 PM   #30
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I somhow doubt that that he got more screen time than most of the other season III characters. He was only in two episodes, and the first one, "Starscream's Ghost", was half-over before he even showed up.

And remember, exposure and utilization are two different things...
 
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Old 2002-05-02, 01:33 AM   #31
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Overall, Starscream seemed to serve as the voice of reason that Megatron never listened to. Sure he screwed up a few times, but most of the time, he was telling Megatron that his plan wouldn't work, and when Bedpan Man didn't listen, the plan would fail in exactly the way that Screamer said it would fail in.


To be fair, Starscream made no secret of the fact that he wanted Megatron's job so Megatron had a strong incentive not to listen to him.
 
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Old 2002-05-02, 01:35 AM   #32
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I somhow doubt that that he got more screen time than most of the other season III characters. He was only in two episodes, and the first one, "Starscream's Ghost", was half-over before he even showed up.



That is still more than Springer, Arcee, Wheelie, Blur, and Skylinx ever got. Kup only got to be the focal point of two episodes.

And remember, exposure and utilization are two different things...

 
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Old 2002-05-02, 12:08 PM   #33
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That is still more than Springer, Arcee, Wheelie, Blur, and Skylinx ever got. Kup only got to be the focal point of two episodes.
And Wheelie not getting exposure is a bad thing, how?

No, I'm in agreement with Snake here. Starscream's Ghost had the potential to be awesome, and a real thorn in Galvatron's side throughout series 3. Unfortunately, he simply turned out to be the Plot Device of the Week.

-Ss
 


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Old 2002-05-02, 12:56 PM   #34
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Yeah, I gotta say that Starscreams Ghost, Thundercracker, and Skywarp are the most underutilized characters in TF. I mean Starscream's Ghost was probably THE BEST character in season 3(other then Galvatron and Ultra Magnus). And we all know that Thundercracker and Skywarp(along wit the old Starscream)were the best members of the Decepticons.

Now on the autobots half, I gotta admit that Blaster and Jazz was the most underutilized Transformers for there half. I mean, Blaster didnt even do that match in season 2 or season to that matter. Hell, I think we saw Buzzsaw(I think thats his name. The Tiger Cassete that came from him)more then we saw Blaster. :rolleyes: And Jazz in my opinion was the BEST autobot. You still cant mess wit the way he transformers. ^_^
 



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Old 2002-05-02, 01:17 PM   #35
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Buzzsaw is the name of Soundwave's golden condor cassette.

Steeljaw is the name of Blaster's lion cassette.
 
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Old 2002-05-02, 01:51 PM   #36
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Buzzsaw is the name of Soundwave's golden condor cassette.

Steeljaw is the name of Blaster's lion cassette.
Thanks for clearin that up. ^_^
 



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Old 2002-05-02, 05:31 PM   #37
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after reading this I would just like to point out that Megatron was the greatest tactician to ever grace the tf universe. His cunningness is unmatched and his conquest of Cybertron was the pinacle of his fine career

Oh wait we're on about G1 Megatron, in that case snakes right, he's a Dumbass
 

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Old 2002-05-02, 08:40 PM   #38
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Autobots:
Windcharger
Huffer
Jazz
Hound
Sideswipe
Skyfire
Blaster
Skids

Decepticons:
Thundercracker
Skywarp
Buzzsaw
Reflector
 

Hey, comics fans!
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Old 2002-05-03, 10:12 AM   #39
Buzzsaw
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Ann Arbor, MI
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hey does anyone know of any episodes with buzzsaw in it? I've been looking but I can't remember and I think there was at least one with him in it (i suspect it was season 2) but that might just be a hallucination on my part
 

"I long for the day when we can attack honorably." --Cyclonus

"It all pales next to the artistry of Buzzsaw. I can pinpoint a hex-nut at twenty miles with my optic sensors and my beak has carved many an Autobot warrior into a masterpiece of scap metal."
-- Transformers Issue #1
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Old 2002-05-03, 11:22 AM   #40
Lucifer
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LA CA USA
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For the record, i hated Arcee, Blurr, Springer, and Kup. Those 4 shouldve been on the Autobot shuttle in the movie.

As far as underused goes, i'd say Bluestreak and Windcharger. And yes, Buzzsaw did appear once in season 2, though i forget the episode.
 

"'If you die,' you said, 'so do I,' you said, but it ends the day you understand, there is no forever, just this."
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