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Old 2014-08-29, 07:18 AM   #41
MikeB
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mind, I suspect it'll be more of a Sophie's Choice thing, bring back "Their" crew but they have to sacrifice Rewind to do it.
Yeah, I think that's likely. It'd be interesting to see if this Rewind still makes the dramatic sacrifice or if the events that have unfolded in this version make it something unpleasant that someone else has to do to him...
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 08:55 AM   #42
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Quick thoughts in no particular order:

The briefcase scene is nicely done. What it leads to I have no idea but I like that it takes a moment to realise whats happening but its not too hidden to not be clear.

As someone who likes the DJD, I'm hoping that its not as simple as them storming the Lost Light. I see them as experts in torture and powerful alright but not a mass group of phase sixers. They could have used Black Shadows shut down code to take him out. They didnt just wipe out the scavengers right away. And in this case its possible the lost light is depleted or just suffering from some kind of explosion.

Is the necrobot charting all the dead cybertrons or is he linked to the DJD in some way and only charting their kills?

The rodimus coffin was quite the insult really - they fix his face into a smile and make a mockery of the burial ritual.

I'm still not sure this is a future lost light. I think its merely an alternate where certain events happened differently (Skids never discovers the bar with Swerve, Overlord is never released and Rewind never dies). I'm still thinking that back in issue one when the explosion occurs this lost light is sent one way and our lost light went the other. Its also possible that this lost light has been living through hell if they were damaged going into sector 113, thereby allowing the DJD to easily gain advantage.

Despite all the well-drawn gore and shock going on, I think everyone is in agreement that its the Ravage/ Megatron scene that steals the issue.

I liked the image of Megatron melting his fusion cannon being very similar to the one back in issue 7 (albeit that one is in Tarns head)

Overall, a really good issue. I like how we think we have the right answers (and we might be on the ball) but things are mixed up enough that a twist wont feel out of place.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 11:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skyquake
Thats fine, but I think bringing back Rewind isn't a good move...it just undoes that whole turmoil he and Chromedome went through and personally I am just against undoing horrific events becasue a character/ relationship worked really well.
-nod nod nod-

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Originally Posted by Skyquake
I know its only comics and these are shooty space robots, but still...I dunno, it just robs me of my emotional involvement in those characters and I don't like how it makes me feel.
-nod nod nod-

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Originally Posted by Skyquake
Also : I like the DJD and have no problems with them and when I saw that splash of them, it made me shudder!
Yaaaay

I do agree that the DJD may not be the most well-written of characters, but sometimes you really need to introduce a bunch of strong villains, and using pre-established characters like, oh, say, Bludgeon or Thunderwing, who we know to have been defeated before, kind of takes away from ramping up their threat. They could've been handled better, but for now I do like them, two-dimensional bastards that they are.

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Originally Posted by Red Dave Prime View Post
The briefcase scene is nicely done. What it leads to I have no idea but I like that it takes a moment to realise whats happening but its not too hidden to not be clear.
This. For a moment I thought it was a cop-out and they switched the bottom row and the middle row, but as soon as I saw the numbers and then it's too sporadic and the numbers are obvious indications that, yes, shit's going down!

I'm not sure if it's a reset button or something more fourth-wall-y (I hope not) or whatever the hell, but it's certainly, well, something I absolutely did not expect.

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Originally Posted by Red Dave Prime
And in this case its possible the lost light is depleted or just suffering from some kind of explosion.
Another excellent point. The Lost Light crew might have been worn out by something or other... I believe I mentioned something similar to the 'everybody got frozen by Brainstorm's experiment' from Spotlight: Trailcutter?

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Originally Posted by Red Dave Prime
Is the necrobot charting all the dead cybertrons or is he linked to the DJD in some way and only charting their kills?
Didn't even think of it... the Necrobot, on the other hand, is one which I didn't like. Either the 'OH MY GOD THESE GUYS ARE GOING TO DIE' list is a stupid cop-out with this, or it's going to make some of these deaths to be without tension, whilst earmarking the specific Autobots to die.

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I'm still not sure this is a future lost light.
Have to reread and check, but IIRC Brainstorm or Nautica or someone said that the Rodimus corpse has aged for quite a while.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 12:44 PM   #44
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Also... the Lost Light doesn't actually have any offensive capability beyond the meteor lasers (which we only saw for the first time just before Overlord escaped, if the signal the DJD picked up at the end of issue 8 was from the double ship they might have caught up with it before they were set up) does it? Certainly they had to go outside the ship and take on the minicons boto et boto and I don't recall any panels of it letting rip with its big guns in Dark Cybertron.

So, the DJD ship comes out of hyperspace, blows the crap out of the Lost Light, then they board and gleefully go through the survivors (they gave Krok's crew the chance to surrender the guilty, they'd have probably extended no such courtesy to Autobots).


Of course, getting a virtually unarmed ship was a daft move of Drift's, very happy clappy hippy of him. Horrible death was the best thing for him.

EDIT: They established Rodimus' corpse was basically about the same age as him, if it is a future ship it's not from too far ahead.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 01:19 PM   #45
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So, the DJD ship comes out of hyperspace, blows the crap out of the Lost Light,
...blows the crap out of the Lost Light (which might be damaged from traveling through that dangerous sector in space), lets the quantum blood goop kill half the crew and get them scrambling for repairs, move in and mow down them while they're distracted? It's a great plan.

That's what I would do if I hypothetically had to murder everyone in a ship that outnumber me forty to one.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek
EDIT: They established Rodimus' corpse was basically about the same age as him, if it is a future ship it's not from too far ahead.
Mea culpa then, so it's definitely a duplicate Lost Light. Wonder why the time difference, though... Brainstorm's suitcase? Eh? Eh?
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 01:58 PM   #46
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Mea culpa then, so it's definitely a duplicate Lost Light. Wonder why the time difference, though... Brainstorm's suitcase? Eh? Eh?

Yeah, all they really confirmed was the corpse wasn't younger than Rodimus (ie: Not a clone or other form of duplicate), it's actual age was rounded to the nearest million.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 03:50 PM   #47
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Yeah, I think that's likely. It'd be interesting to see if this Rewind still makes the dramatic sacrifice or if the events that have unfolded in this version make it something unpleasant that someone else has to do to him...
Honestly I don't think that would carry very much weight. The only reason I could see for bringing Rewind back just to kill him again would be to further torture Chromedome, but Chromedome isn't here to see it. If he sacrifices himself to save some random dudes he barely knows, it won't carry as much weight and they probably won't tell Domey anyway to protect him from the pain it'd cause.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
In terms of how five beat 200 when they didn't instantly kill the Scavengers...


It's worth remembering we've previously seen them in action in the open on a planetary surface where their opponents could unleash everything they had at the DJD.

Fighting within the confines of a spaceship is a very different thing. Think of the original Alien, where the screenwriter didn't want to create an unbeatable monster, just to put a very tough one within an environment where it's prey would have limited options in terms of what they could do. Or the fight against Overlord, where despite there being more Autobots than he faced in Wreckers and him being unarmed he still was making good work through the crew before Magnus and Maximus intervened (IIRC the crew weren't using much in the way of energy weapons there, mainly going for physical attacks and pointy things, presumably because of the fear of damaging the ship).
But the same constraints that would be on the Autobots would also be on the DJD, surely? They wouldn't want to blow up the ship with themselves on it either, because they'd be just as dead. Meanwhile the Autobots know the lay of the land far better and have an arsenal of Brainstorm-designed impractical superweapons at their disposal.

Also, it was just as phenomenally stupid when Overlord was able to take on the whole crew, and even then in spite of his big talk he barely managed to kill anyone and they took care of him with little more trouble than the sparkeater gave them.

But what bothers me is this whole idea that Roberts is trying to push that the Decepticons have this whole bevy of super-invincible killing machines. The way he writes it, there is absolutely no reason why Megatron couldn't have taken Sixshot, Black Shadow, Overlord, Heretech, Tarn and his goons with him, stormed the Autobots' command center and ended the war in a day. If the DJD can kill 200 Autobots (and 200 of their best, frankly) like it's nothing, then there's nobody and nothing on the Autobot side that could stop them. Magnus and Fort Max have already been shown to not even be in the same league, Grimlock couldn't beat Shockwave with his whole team to back him up and Optimus is at best an even match for Megatron. Metroplex buggered off for reasons unknown, Omega Supreme apparently spent the whole war chilling on an asteroid and who else do the Autobots have that's even in that league?

The whole concept also makes zero sense in light of the earlier comics -- Sixshot is supposed to be basically unbeatable, and he couldn't even kill Ratchet or Jazz. He seemed to have his hands full with half a dozen Autobots, but going by Roberts' logic he should have killed them all within a few minutes at most. And then later he couldn't even fucking kill the Throttlebots, who are easily the most pathetic Autobot sub-group out there.

But okay. Lets pretend that he really is that powerful, and just, uh, had a couple bad days or something. So he, Overlord and Black Shadow can kill entire armies by themselves. And the DJD can kill them with ease. So if your Phase Sixers are "unbeatable", the DJD are, like, Unicron-level threats. And yet somehow they couldn't even kill a couple of Triggerbots back in Bullets? And the Scavengers, who were underpowered and injured, give them trouble? But when they show up on the Lost Light it's like they're playing a video game with God Mode turned on.

And even the DJD's job doesn't make sense. Starscream's treachery seemingly manages to go completely unnoticed by them, even though everyone knows what he's up to and his betrayals (just the ones we see, mind, not mentioning all the stuff he presumably did before the comics started) are far worse than the things they've executed people for in the past. Not to mention Swindle, Scorponok, Thunderwing, Shockwave, Bludgeon, etc., who've all gone rogue, some multiple times, with basically no consequences. But why waste time going after big fish like that when you can chase down miscellaneous losers like Fulcrum instead?

I also have a huge objection with the concept of allegedly invincible enemies in general. They're antagonists. They're going to lose. And the more "unbeatable" you pretend they are, the stupider it's going to look when someone shoots Overlord or Tarn in the eye with one of Ironfist's brain-bullets and drops him.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 06:23 PM   #48
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Honestly I don't think that would carry very much weight. The only reason I could see for bringing Rewind back just to kill him again would be to further torture Chromedome, but Chromedome isn't here to see it. If he sacrifices himself to save some random dudes he barely knows, it won't carry as much weight and they probably won't tell Domey anyway to protect him from the pain it'd cause.


But the same constraints that would be on the Autobots would also be on the DJD, surely? They wouldn't want to blow up the ship with themselves on it either, because they'd be just as dead. Meanwhile the Autobots know the lay of the land far better and have an arsenal of Brainstorm-designed impractical superweapons at their disposal.

Also, it was just as phenomenally stupid when Overlord was able to take on the whole crew, and even then in spite of his big talk he barely managed to kill anyone and they took care of him with little more trouble than the sparkeater gave them.

But what bothers me is this whole idea that Roberts is trying to push that the Decepticons have this whole bevy of super-invincible killing machines. The way he writes it, there is absolutely no reason why Megatron couldn't have taken Sixshot, Black Shadow, Overlord, Heretech, Tarn and his goons with him, stormed the Autobots' command center and ended the war in a day. If the DJD can kill 200 Autobots (and 200 of their best, frankly) like it's nothing, then there's nobody and nothing on the Autobot side that could stop them. Magnus and Fort Max have already been shown to not even be in the same league, Grimlock couldn't beat Shockwave with his whole team to back him up and Optimus is at best an even match for Megatron. Metroplex buggered off for reasons unknown, Omega Supreme apparently spent the whole war chilling on an asteroid and who else do the Autobots have that's even in that league?

The whole concept also makes zero sense in light of the earlier comics -- Sixshot is supposed to be basically unbeatable, and he couldn't even kill Ratchet or Jazz. He seemed to have his hands full with half a dozen Autobots, but going by Roberts' logic he should have killed them all within a few minutes at most. And then later he couldn't even fucking kill the Throttlebots, who are easily the most pathetic Autobot sub-group out there.

But okay. Lets pretend that he really is that powerful, and just, uh, had a couple bad days or something. So he, Overlord and Black Shadow can kill entire armies by themselves. And the DJD can kill them with ease. So if your Phase Sixers are "unbeatable", the DJD are, like, Unicron-level threats. And yet somehow they couldn't even kill a couple of Triggerbots back in Bullets? And the Scavengers, who were underpowered and injured, give them trouble? But when they show up on the Lost Light it's like they're playing a video game with God Mode turned on.

And even the DJD's job doesn't make sense. Starscream's treachery seemingly manages to go completely unnoticed by them, even though everyone knows what he's up to and his betrayals (just the ones we see, mind, not mentioning all the stuff he presumably did before the comics started) are far worse than the things they've executed people for in the past. Not to mention Swindle, Scorponok, Thunderwing, Shockwave, Bludgeon, etc., who've all gone rogue, some multiple times, with basically no consequences. But why waste time going after big fish like that when you can chase down miscellaneous losers like Fulcrum instead?

I also have a huge objection with the concept of allegedly invincible enemies in general. They're antagonists. They're going to lose. And the more "unbeatable" you pretend they are, the stupider it's going to look when someone shoots Overlord or Tarn in the eye with one of Ironfist's brain-bullets and drops him.
Yeah, I would agree that a general problem with IDW is the build up of a big bad only to see them being not really all that. Its not just Roberts. Furman did it with Thunderwing (although I suppose it wasnt actually Thunderwing that came back in Stormbringer) and as you said Sixshot.

However using my fanboy powers I think I can somewhat explain the Overlord / DJD stuff. Here goes:

Overlords body in MTMTE is an autobot design. He is still powerful thanks to his enhanced inner skeleton but the body they give him has no weapons and probably has reduced strength. Also he gets taken down just as he starts to get going by, what I thought, was quite a clever safety switch. Had he simply boarded the Lost light, they may not have stopped him.

Onto the DJD. As I guess above, I reckon they have Black Shadows off-switch code (like sixshot and overlord did) as we only see them torturing him, but not actually taking him down. And one thing that is established with the DJD is that more than being Killers is that they really know their prey. As for Overlord? When Overlord is discovered by Red Alert he is saying Kill Me over and over. Its quite possible that he actually welcomes the DJDs arrival. On this alternative lost light he may never have known that Megatron was alive again and so had nothing to live for. That was his reason for breaking out back in issue 15.

So yep, the DJD are powerful but maybe not THAT powerful.

And just a quick (and weak) defence of Sixshot in devastation. He was toying with Ratchet and then when he was about to destroy Prime, he had to leave (I know, I know...)
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 06:31 PM   #49
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Honestly I don't think that would carry very much weight. The only reason I could see for bringing Rewind back just to kill him again would be to further torture Chromedome, but Chromedome isn't here to see it. If he sacrifices himself to save some random dudes he barely knows, it won't carry as much weight and they probably won't tell Domey anyway to protect him from the pain it'd cause.
Him not being there and (if Rewind doesn't last the distance) them not getting to meet is potentially interesting, Chromedome's already at tipping point, if he finds out Rewind came back but, say, Skids or Nightbeat pushed the button that sends him back to oblivion would he be able to stay rational enough to accept it was or everyone die or would we be looking at a full on breakdown? A guy off the deep end with nothing to lose and needles in his fingers on a ship with an ex-Decepticon leader with a deep phobia of needles in fingers could go somewhere interesting.


Quote:
But the same constraints that would be on the Autobots would also be on the DJD, surely? They wouldn't want to blow up the ship with themselves on it either, because they'd be just as dead. Meanwhile the Autobots know the lay of the land far better and have an arsenal of Brainstorm-designed impractical superweapons at their disposal.
They'd be far less worried about keeping things intact that the Autobots, and how many of Brainstorm's inventions have proven genuinely more useful in battle than a normal big gun so far? I can see breaking the fourth wall at the DJD or giving them a deep sense of ennui would do much good. He could shrink them I suppose?

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Also, it was just as phenomenally stupid when Overlord was able to take on the whole crew, and even then in spite of his big talk he barely managed to kill anyone and they took care of him with little more trouble than the sparkeater gave them.
Fort Max took care of Overlord, even Magnus was beaten (in what normally would have been a terminal attack) by him, if not for the former warden he'd have at least gone on to kill an awful lot more people even if the lack of weapons had eventually been to his disadvantage (and none of Brainstorm's weapons seemed effective there).

We can't be completely sure yet there wasn't a Max on the alternate Lost Light (though presumably not), but even if there was he'd have been out numbered five to one this time.

Quote:
But what bothers me is this whole idea that Roberts is trying to push that the Decepticons have this whole bevy of super-invincible killing machines. The way he writes it, there is absolutely no reason why Megatron couldn't have taken Sixshot, Black Shadow, Overlord, Heretech, Tarn and his goons with him, stormed the Autobots' command center and ended the war in a day. If the DJD can kill 200 Autobots (and 200 of their best, frankly) like it's nothing, then there's nobody and nothing on the Autobot side that could stop them. Magnus and Fort Max have already been shown to not even be in the same league, Grimlock couldn't beat Shockwave with his whole team to back him up and Optimus is at best an even match for Megatron. Metroplex buggered off for reasons unknown, Omega Supreme apparently spent the whole war chilling on an asteroid and who else do the Autobots have that's even in that league?
I think the actual scale of the war is worth remembering- Autobot High Command wouldn't be 200 ex-soldiers, it'd be thousands at the very least. The accumulative effect of even all the .1%ers/phase sixers would meet its match with that. I always got the impression during the Furman stuff that it wasn't the case that the Autobots couldn't marshal a force big enough to stop, say, Sixshot, devastating a planet, it's just their disinterest in the little people at that time meant they weren't hugely bothered about devoting sufficient resources to a world already that far gone.

And again, at most there's a dozen such powerful Decepticons, both sides have many, many, many times more "Regular" Transformers, presumably (at least at the point the IDW stuff started) too evenly matched to beat each other in all out war, hence all the sneaking about stuff the conflict had become prior to Earth.

The DJD emphatically aren't unbeatable characters either. It's been established (mind, I'm not sure if it's been done infiction, leaving it to behind the scenes commentary is arguably a problem) the DJD has had multiple members with the names being passed down titles, they wouldn't need that if they never die. So as a group they mostly always win (or their defeats are so small as to not impact on the legend), but as inderviduals they are vulnerable and are killable.

Quote:
The whole concept also makes zero sense in light of the earlier comics -- Sixshot is supposed to be basically unbeatable, and he couldn't even kill Ratchet or Jazz. He seemed to have his hands full with half a dozen Autobots, but going by Roberts' logic he should have killed them all within a few minutes at most. And then later he couldn't even fucking kill the Throttlebots, who are easily the most pathetic Autobot sub-group out there.
I do agree with this- I think it was Cliffy who said Devastation should have been called JazzHurtsHisArmtion- but that's a problem with Furman's writing rather than Roberts, who always makes sure there's some actual lethal consequences to these characters appearances however it is they're eventually sent packing (even if it's Flywheels!).

Also, lets not forget that this isn't really a crew of great soldiers, either tactically or physically. Most are unknown qualities (I mean, what do we know about IDW Smokescreen? He could be a great warrior or a stamp collector with a fear of moths), but of the original main cast we've got Rodimus, Drift, Magnus, Whirl and Cyclonus.

Then amongst the rest there's a psychiatrist, a drunk with forcefiled issues, a total coward despite having a supposed super weapon tied to his wrist, an archivist who is excused from fighting, and a character who can't hold a gun without shooting himself in the face.

If that's a representative sample, the actually useful in close combat crewmembers are badly outnumbered (and tellingly, the top four tend to be front and centre in any action scene doing the brunt of the work).

But that's the thing with the Lost Light, it's not a heavily armed battle cruiser crewed with the best and brightest. It's an unarmed giant hulk (that, based on what it did to Monstructor, seemingly works better as a battering ram than an attack ship) with a disparete crew of misfits and little people just trying to do the best they can (which has almost been a theme of the series).

Snap Trap's rag tag team gave them trouble, Metroplex saved them from the Minicons, the Legislator's easily overran the ship in about five minutes. They've had some good (though mostly set up well in advance) luck but they're as much a real match for the DJD at a cruise ship against Somali pirates.

In fact, has the crew ever properly beaten anyone bar Snap trap's bunch in a fair fight without some sort of outside help?


Quote:
And even the DJD's job doesn't make sense. Starscream's treachery seemingly manages to go completely unnoticed by them, even though everyone knows what he's up to and his betrayals (just the ones we see, mind, not mentioning all the stuff he presumably did before the comics started) are far worse than the things they've executed people for in the past. Not to mention Swindle, Scorponok, Thunderwing, Shockwave, Bludgeon, etc., who've all gone rogue, some multiple times, with basically no consequences. But why waste time going after big fish like that when you can chase down miscellaneous losers like Fulcrum instead?
Starscream has been deliberately let off by Megatron, never for reasons that have made much sense (despite a valiant effort by Spotlight Megs) but he's presumably off limits by order.

As for the others, he may have broken the Tyrest accord but I'm not sure Swindle was ever formally a Decepticon traitor (as I'm sure selling technology to aliens isn't something the Decepticons actually give a **** about despite what the flawed idea in the Magnus Spotlight tries to tell us); it took Magnus years to track down Scorponok so they likely had a similar long search; they could actually have been involved in the taking down of Thunderwing and I don't think anyone actually properly found out what Shockwave was up to (Megatron never heard back on any of the investigations he started and Shockwave was missing for a very long time, who knows what excuse he used when he rejoined the troops on the asteroid?).

Bludgeon is a big, big problem though. Or at least that Coda issue where he's working with the Decepticons again is. Ignore that and assume he teamed up with Jhiaxus instead and the DJD just never got round to catching up with him and it works.

Sadly, in the Barber editorial era no continuity point will ever be forgotten.

It's not perfect for sure (though perhaps it's Megatron/current Decepticon leader personally who decides who goes on the list? So the Constructicons don't go on it post AHM because he finds them far too useful?), but I think with a bit of squinting it just about holds together and is an interesting enough idea in and of itself to make the continuity lubrication worth it. YMMV of course.



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I also have a huge objection with the concept of allegedly invincible enemies in general. They're antagonists. They're going to lose. And the more "unbeatable" you pretend they are, the stupider it's going to look when someone shoots Overlord or Tarn in the eye with one of Ironfist's brain-bullets and drops him.
I will bet the ultimate cause of their defeat is already staring us in the face, I think Roberts is really good in setting up his pay offs in advance in a way that doesn't make them stand out as obvious. Take Tailgate's Cybercrosis, it seemed really obvious where that was going when we'd been told Dominus Ambus had been looking for a cure, but instead it was actually setting up Tailgate being immune to the the magic staff via a seemingly throwaway mention of one of the symptoms. A very nice bit of writing misdirection.

[Not that Roberts is a perfect writer of course, action scenes always seem to give him real trouble- as the disappointing combat between Star Sabre and Dai Atlas showed- and here as he has before he writes around actually having to do a big fight scene so he can do what he does best, characters talking at one another, instead]

In terms of what might help "Our" (I suspect a Thomas Riker thing where it will be that either ship could be the original) crew when they meet the DJD is the sheer mind **** of running into a ship and a bunch of people they've already blown up and killed again is surely going to throw them off their game.

Oh, and I bet Tarn's big twist will be he's a character we've never met or heard of before. And then Knightdramon will cry.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 06:53 PM   #50
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[snip] ...there is absolutely no reason why Megatron couldn't have taken Sixshot, Black Shadow, Overlord, Heretech, Tarn and his goons with him, stormed the Autobots' command center and ended the war in a day. [/snip]
Hopefully this will be the question that the new audience surrogate, Nautica, will ask next issue.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 07:51 PM   #51
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Onto the DJD. As I guess above, I reckon they have Black Shadows off-switch code (like sixshot and overlord did) as we only see them torturing him, but not actually taking him down. And one thing that is established with the DJD is that more than being Killers is that they really know their prey. As for Overlord? When Overlord is discovered by Red Alert he is saying Kill Me over and over. Its quite possible that he actually welcomes the DJDs arrival. On this alternative lost light he may never have known that Megatron was alive again and so had nothing to live for. That was his reason for breaking out back in issue 15.

So yep, the DJD are powerful but maybe not THAT powerful.
See, that's what I'd like to believe -- but then they raided a starship with 200 people on it and killed everyone all by themselves, which sort of puts the lie to that idea. They didn't have shutdown codes for Magnus or Rodimus or Whirl or Blaster, they just flat-out slaughtered them.

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Him not being there and (if Rewind doesn't last the distance) them not getting to meet is potentially interesting, Chromedome's already at tipping point, if he finds out Rewind came back but, say, Skids or Nightbeat pushed the button that sends him back to oblivion would he be able to stay rational enough to accept it was or everyone die or would we be looking at a full on breakdown? A guy off the deep end with nothing to lose and needles in his fingers on a ship with an ex-Decepticon leader with a deep phobia of needles in fingers could go somewhere interesting.
Right, which is why nobody in their right minds would ever tell Chromedome that it happened. I'm sure you could come up with a scenario where it might need to happen, but neither Tailgate nor Swerve are among this group so I'm sure everyone will keep their mouths shut -- under threat from Megatron, if need be, just to avoid the scenario you suggested.

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They'd be far less worried about keeping things intact that the Autobots, and how many of Brainstorm's inventions have proven genuinely more useful in battle than a normal big gun so far? I can see breaking the fourth wall at the DJD or giving them a deep sense of ennui would do much good. He could shrink them I suppose?
You joke, but I suspect the ennui gun would have stopped Overlord in his tracks. A shrink ray and a big magnet would take care of problems like that nicely, too.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Fort Max took care of Overlord, even Magnus was beaten (in what normally would have been a terminal attack) by him, if not for the former warden he'd have at least gone on to kill an awful lot more people even if the lack of weapons had eventually been to his disadvantage (and none of Brainstorm's weapons seemed effective there).
Did they use any of Brainstorm's weapons, though? It seemed like everyone just dropped what they were doing and rushed him. Cyclonus even called out their stupidity and said that they'd have better results if they'd taken the time to prepare before charging in.

Plus, I'd argue with "Fort Max took care of Overlord". Chromedome took care of Overlord using ingenuity and guile. Max was basically a forklift.

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I think the actual scale of the war is worth remembering- Autobot High Command wouldn't be 200 ex-soldiers, it'd be thousands at the very least. The accumulative effect of even all the .1%ers/phase sixers would meet its match with that.
Would they? The way Roberts writes about them, I doubt that. Based on Black Shadow's intro, he killed 3,003 Autobots in a single battle while besting both Optimus and Magnus. Seven or eight 'Cons on his level working as a unit could easily clear out a headquarters of that scale.

(And that's just stupid. The idea that any Transformer could be that much more powerful than his peers is simply absurd, unless he's the size of Metroplex. It shows that the writer simply has no sense of scale. They're robots, not wizards, and nothing but magic could create such a huge gulf between one Transformer and the next. No amount of technology could account for that, not even the not-really-all-that-impressive "unbreakable skeleton" that Roberts came up with.)

And even if it's not feasible for whatever reason at the start of the war, certainly it would be by the time the comics start, when there's only around 5,000 Transformers left on either side.

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The DJD emphatically aren't unbeatable characters either. It's been established (mind, I'm not sure if it's been done infiction, leaving it to behind the scenes commentary is arguably a problem) the DJD has had multiple members with the names being passed down titles, they wouldn't need that if they never die.
Not necessarily -- they could have been promoted, or retired, or defected, though I do agree that it seems likely they've had members killed before. But it does make me ask how, considering how they've been portrayed. I don't object to them being a badass group on the level of the Wreckers or Dinobots or Squadron X, but this story has us talking about them like they're five Phase Sixers, and that's miles too far IMO.

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I do agree with this- I think it was Cliffy who said Devastation should have been called JazzHurtsHisArmtion- but that's a problem with Furman's writing rather than Roberts, who always makes sure there's some actual lethal consequences to these characters appearances however it is they're eventually sent packing (even if it's Flywheels!).
Right, but what I'm trying to say is that, however stupid some of the past writing was, Roberts is still working in the same continuity and he should at least try to ensure that his stories make some vague degree of sense compared to what's happened before.

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Also, lets not forget that this isn't really a crew of great soldiers, either tactically or physically. Most are unknown qualities (I mean, what do we know about IDW Smokescreen? He could be a great warrior or a stamp collector with a fear of moths), but of the original main cast we've got Rodimus, Drift, Magnus, Whirl and Cyclonus.

Then amongst the rest there's a psychiatrist, a drunk with forcefiled issues, a total coward despite having a supposed super weapon tied to his wrist, an archivist who is excused from fighting, and a character who can't hold a gun without shooting himself in the face.
Right, but the background crew includes the likes of Atomizer, Blades, Blaster, Brawn, Crosshairs, Deftwing, Hound, Pointblank, Sunstreaker and Sureshot, all of whom are either known to be good fighters in the IDWverse or should be based on their profiles and previous appearances. Not to mention they've got Waverider and Landmine knocking about, both of whom have Pretender shells and thus should be Thunderwing-tier tough SOBs. They might have some not-so-useful crewmembers, but they've got more than their share of hard-cases, too.

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If that's a representative sample, the actually useful in close combat crewmembers are badly outnumbered (and tellingly, the top four tend to be front and centre in any action scene doing the brunt of the work).
Main characters front and centre in all the battles in a sci-fi work? Gasp! This is unheard of!

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Snap Trap's rag tag team gave them trouble, Metroplex saved them from the Minicons, the Legislator's easily overran the ship in about five minutes. They've had some good (though mostly set up well in advance) luck but they're as much a real match for the DJD at a cruise ship against Somali pirates.
Snap Trap's ragtag crew wound up in the brig and didn't even manage to kill anyone, so I'm not sure they really gave them trouble.

And if you gave the 200-odd member crew of a cruise ship machine guns, I'm pretty sure they could take five Somali pirates. Some of them would die and there'd be some collateral damage, to be sure, but with 40:1 odds even lucky shots would win the day.

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As for the others, he may have broken the Tyrest accord but I'm not sure Swindle was ever formally a Decepticon traitor (as I'm sure selling technology to aliens isn't something the Decepticons actually give a **** about despite what the flawed idea in the Magnus Spotlight tries to tell us);
He's constantly ignoring the war and spending his time profiteering instead of killing Autobots. If "not blowing yourself up" is reason enough to get DJDed, I'm pretty sure he'd have to look over his shoulder for them.

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it took Magnus years to track down Scorponok so they likely had a similar long search;
Would they, though? They magically knew where Overlord was as soon as the plot called for it. You'd think Scorpy would be even easier to find, since he's actively carving out empires for himself.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 08:40 PM   #52
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Lot of rage there Warcry

A few counter points but I do see a lot of where you are coming from.

regarding the DJD and the targets they choose, you have to remember they are pretty much a bunch of psychos who Megatron uses as Boogie men to keep the regular rank and file in check. I'd imagine that means that they dont always pick the most obvious targets. Maybe they stay away from the bigger guys like shockwave because these guys may stray for a bit but they are worth bringing back. Overlord is a bit of an exception because he wants to actually take out Megatron.

With the DJD vs the Lost Light, I stand by me belief that either the DJD attacked them from afar first meaning it was more of a mop up or that something had already happened to make them sitting ducks.

And in relation to the DJD power levels, I stand by my points that they arent a bunch of phase sixers who are unbeatable. They are psychos and evil as hell but they aren't unbeatable. We havent seen them in a straight up fight other than against the scavengers and they looked powerful but not unbeatable. I think they are the ultimate opportunists and would only have taken on the lost light when the odds were massively in their favour.

I do agree that the 3003 deaths is pretty bad especially as the wreckers only lost three in their fight with Black Shadow. Although the kills may not be directly attributed to just Black Shadow (Black shadow vs the DJD is Killsne) so maybe he was leading other troops who didnt survive. Yeah, I'm grasping.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 09:03 PM   #53
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Lot of rage there Warcry
Eh, it keeps the MTMTE threads balanced

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With the DJD vs the Lost Light, I stand by me belief that either the DJD attacked them from afar first meaning it was more of a mop up or that something had already happened to make them sitting ducks.
Yeah, I'm kind of hoping this may be the case. With duplicate Rewind being the sole survivor, I suspect he'll fill us in on what happened and hopefully resolve some of these nagging (and quite valid) questions we have.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 09:05 PM   #54
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Right, which is why nobody in their right minds would ever tell Chromedome that it happened. I'm sure you could come up with a scenario where it might need to happen, but neither Tailgate nor Swerve are among this group so I'm sure everyone will keep their mouths shut -- under threat from Megatron, if need be, just to avoid the scenario you suggested.
Though as Megatron clearly has a lot of enemies biding their time for a moment they can act without pissing off Optimus (and whatever strange authority he used to have them agree to take Megatron aboard, now that was something that still doesn't quite work) on the pretence of Megatron becoming a legitimate threat, manoeuvring the two into a confrontation where ones madness prompts the other to react to his insane phobia could be very much to their advantage. Whilst I think most of the regulars are too paly now to do that to Chromedome (even Whirl!) we've got characters like Riptide and Getaway who are new, somewhat dickish and would stand a good chance of risking it to get rid of Megs.

Quote:
Did they use any of Brainstorm's weapons, though? It seemed like everyone just dropped what they were doing and rushed him. Cyclonus even called out their stupidity and said that they'd have better results if they'd taken the time to prepare before charging in.
And that last bit shows why they're not the best at this sort of thing.

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Plus, I'd argue with "Fort Max took care of Overlord". Chromedome took care of Overlord using ingenuity and guile. Max was basically a forklift.
The code certainly helped, but he was already recovering and no one else seemed to have much effect on him whilst he was at his worst. Would anyone else other than Max have managed to get him to the pod?


Quote:
Would they? The way Roberts writes about them, I doubt that. Based on Black Shadow's intro, he killed 3,003 Autobots in a single battle while besting both Optimus and Magnus. Seven or eight 'Cons on his level working as a unit could easily clear out a headquarters of that scale.
Mind, we don't see how he killed that many and no other Phase Sixer we've seen has ever managed anything similar against other Transformers, obviously the line is there for the gag but presumably there was some sort of super gonzo weapon at his disposal of the sort that Roberts likes to drop the names of when talking about old battles (Nightmare Engine and so one) which then became unavailable for some reason as these things always seem to do.


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And even if it's not feasible for whatever reason at the start of the war, certainly it would be by the time the comics start, when there's only around 5,000 Transformers left on either side.
It might be that many post the betrayal/massacre in AHM (though how the Decepticons lost so many in the face of total victory I'll never know) but obviously there was a lot more knocking about in the earlier IDW stuff, you don't run a galaxy wide war on multiple planets and fronts, even in secret, with just 10'000 troops on both sides. That'd be a relatively small conflict on our planet, let alone in space.

[As I can't recall the figure being stated you'll instantly prove me wrong now by saying the total number comes from Infiltration...]

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Right, but what I'm trying to say is that, however stupid some of the past writing was, Roberts is still working in the same continuity and he should at least try to ensure that his stories make some vague degree of sense compared to what's happened before.
It's probably because Barber's need to tie up Every Single Loose End and explain Every Single Plot Hole is more than boring me now as we get into less and less interesting territory (is anyone actually interested in seeing Spike again?) but I couldn't really care less about continuity fidelity at this point, at least not beyond the Terrance Dicks idea of it (try not to contradict anything recent, older stuff is fair game), so the ludicrous way Sixshot was played in Devastation being ignored doesn't worry me in the least. Obviously YMMV again of course.

Of course, we're going to get a six issue RID arc explaining that Sixshot was faking it all along as part of a fiendish plot that totally explains where the Facsimile Constructs went.


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Right, but the background crew includes the likes of Atomizer, Blades, Blaster, Brawn, Crosshairs, Deftwing, Hound, Pointblank, Sunstreaker and Sureshot, all of whom are either known to be good fighters in the IDWverse or should be based on their profiles and previous appearances. Not to mention they've got Waverider and Landmine knocking about, both of whom have Pretender shells and thus should be Thunderwing-tier tough SOBs. They might have some not-so-useful crewmembers, but they've got more than their share of hard-cases, too.
Even taking all of those, that's only another dozen out of 200, and of some we can't be sure. Deftwing has only been seen as part of a security team originally put together by Red Alert (and with a head of security like that it's no wonder the ship fell against the DJD) and may not have been picked for the most rational reasons. I don't think Blades and the quasi Targetmasters have ever done anything in IDW, Blaster found Beachcomber a tough opponent and Hound has only just been redeemed by Roberts as a field commander after Furman wrote him as the guy who told Sideswipe he can't go do something right before he went and did it.


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Snap Trap's ragtag crew wound up in the brig and didn't even manage to kill anyone, so I'm not sure they really gave them trouble.
Oh sure, they didn't kill anyone (and if you want a sign of how rubbish the crew is generally in combat, the most serious injuries were all self inflicted. I suspect Alternate Tailgate's death was a result of him going "Don't worry, I know how to take out the DJDAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH" and he probably took a dozen Autobots with him), but for such a disorganised and unready bunch what actual probably combat injuries were sustained should easily have been avoided.

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And if you gave the 200-odd member crew of a cruise ship machine guns, I'm pretty sure they could take five Somali pirates. Some of them would die and there'd be some collateral damage, to be sure, but with 40:1 odds even lucky shots would win the day.
Ah, but if the cruise ship people couldn't use guns because shooting a hole in the side of the ship would suck them out into the... vacuum...err.. of the sea (OK, analogy fail) then the commited pirates would probably win it.


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Would they, though? They magically knew where Overlord was as soon as the plot called for it. You'd think Scorpy would be even easier to find, since he's actively carving out empires for himself.
I don't think we've talked about this before, but that was odd. Being able to detect Overlord distinctly over a distance of (even if the Alternate Lost Light happened to be flying right over the planet at that moment) millions of miles- and probably many light years- was utterly ludicrous on the face of it and makes Overlord completely ineffectual as h shouldn't be able to sneak up on anyone ever. Let alone his own side.

Even if the Autobots don't know what the specific signals mean because they don't have the right codes, if everytime Overlord (or any similarly equipped Decepticon, surely they can't all be wired like that?) showd it coincided with a specific, detectable something or other then you think they'd get wise to it pretty fast.

Reminds me of the utter stupid bit in Star Trek: Nemesis where it turns out Soong class android brains emit a signal that can be detecting across light years. No wonder the Enterprise always looses fights when she's got that great big honking beacon on her bridge (though that wasn't helped by TNG always being back on forth over whether Data could be detected as a life sign by the computer when he wasn't wearing his communicator or if it couldn't tell the difference between him and a filing cabinet).

It would be nice if there's a decent explanation, we don't know what happened on the Alternate Lost Light (henceforth the ALL), did Overlord manage to get a message out on purpose and that's what the DJD detected (I can't recall the exact wording at the end of issue 8 and would have to move a CD rack to get the book out. I am lazy).
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 10:19 PM   #55
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I've been reading over some previous issues with a mind to get to the bottom of the briefcase thing. In #28, Rung says some interesting things to Megatron - that editing is an aggressive act. A weapon. The X-Ray flash then comes immediately after Terminus is mentioned. In between the uttering of Terminus' name and the flash, the sole remaining unaltered copy of Megatron's autobiography disappears.

From 'The Sound of Breaking Glass' and Brainstorm himself - "Opening the briefcase while I'm not around is far from a sensible thing to do." In MTMTE #20, the briefcase is shot off of Brainstorm's arm and Brainstorm himself is out for the count. Though, interestingly, on the cover Brainstorm has a finger on the latch of the briefcase.

Our missing letters, once again, are 8 E U N. The letters went missing at the same time Rewind's message to Chromedome became a scream.

The 'data ghost' Rewind seems to be in the same state as the 'reborn' Rewind seen in #32. Incidentally, Chromedome thinks that on some level he willed Rewind back to life. Conceptual heft?

There might be some connection between Megatron's space-bridge body and the subspace perforations that Nautica's sonic screwdriver picks up in the latest issue.

I'm sure these pieces are related somehow but I can't draw them together.

Also, I reckon Riptide's a bit more filled-in that we remember - that scene last issue where he remembers his old anxiety about the ten (eight) step programme and earlier when he says that he needs some goals... there is a character being assembled there.
 
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Old 2014-08-29, 11:16 PM   #56
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Deftwing is dead, people!

Them Legislators killed him.

Poor Deftwing. We barely knew him.



EDIT: alternate Lost Light gaaaaah ignore what I said
 
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Old 2014-08-30, 05:00 AM   #57
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It's called the ALL now granddad.

Thinking of Warcry's point that such varied power levels between characters of the same size having drastically different powers is more of a magic thing, it might be worth noting that the bulk of the difference seems to be down to the quality and type of Spark used, and Spark's basically are magic. Or at least technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from.

You know, I think part of the problem in rationalising all this is that Roberts is actually one of the few writers to have worked on the franchise (generally rather than just IDW) to have a proper sense of scale. A galactic war would take millions of troops (especially when you factor in millions of years where it would likely become billions, for a war that consumed a species that's not impossible) and for someone who walked away from a battle that consumed a planet to have 3000 kills is, if anything, not that excessive as tens of thousands would have been involved (and that's being ubber conservative).

Roberts thinking actually makes more sense (well, as much as any thinking about giant robot war ever will) but because everyone else is thinking in terms of battles that are on a smaller scale than a lot of the fights in our own world wars that makes his ideas seem overly huge in comparison.
 
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Old 2014-08-30, 07:20 AM   #58
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On a side-note, this plot's a pretty solid way to give us some alone time to get to know the new fellas. (And Skids, I guess?) Obviously it ultimately comes down to how well the plot itself comes off, I suppose, but I certainly can't fault the cast setup.
 
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Old 2014-08-30, 01:01 PM   #59
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Thinking of Warcry's point that such varied power levels between characters of the same size having drastically different powers is more of a magic thing, it might be worth noting that the bulk of the difference seems to be down to the quality and type of Spark used, and Spark's basically are magic. Or at least technology so advanced as to be indistinguishable from.
I imagine that the big kill counts of Black Shadow, Sixshot, et al. are mostly down to their tactics - these guys do turn into space-worthy vehicles. They could tow asteroids around and take out thousands in a sneak attack. They're not slaughtering hundreds in ground-level fisticuffs. Well, maybe Overlord is, but Overlord is kinda goofy.

Megatron's response to Thunderwing back in silly old Stormbringer seemed to be pretty indicitive of his idea of a fair fight - pull back and detonate the planet the target happens to be on. Razorclaw had a torpedo that could blow up Cybertron just lying around his spaceship. Mount one of those on a Transformer and you can Phase 6 all day.
 
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Old 2014-08-30, 01:03 PM   #60
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On a side-note, this plot's a pretty solid way to give us some alone time to get to know the new fellas. (And Skids, I guess?)
Yeah, good choice for an opening arc. Funny how we still don't know that much about what Skids is like considering how front-and-centre he's been.
 
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