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Old 2016-04-03, 08:47 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Red Dave Prime View Post
The only problem is if we take the direction that ex-RID is on, there is no way any TF can be a non-believer as there is so much stuff linked to the spiritual side of Cybertronian life that it seems impossible that Ratchet would take such a stance. In real life Religion is based purely on faith, but in TF, Alpha Trion, Metroplex and Galvatron all come from that era pretty much.
The writing team have set things up, in my opinion, in a way that can be interpreted as both mystical fact or religion.

We don't know what's what with the 13 Primes; they were rumoured to be God-like [?] but Galvatron flat out spat in their face and killed at least one of them point-blank, so it's fair to say that he's not big on religion. If anything he's more of a supporter of social status.

We don't know what Alpha Trion fully is, except for ancient; he's too far removed from the current era to be classed as a religious icon or even religious himself.

While Metroplex and the Knights have taken a more mystical stance, that's purely because the only thing surrounding them are legends--I don't think Metroplex has fully disclosed to anybody if he's a special "breed" of Cybertronian.

Don't forget that Ratchet was part of the team that [privately] exposed a lot of Cybetronian religious "facts" as political ploys back in his era; in Shadowplay they pretty much found out that the "Matrix flame" was bullsh!t political zealotry and that Nominus and Sentinel were just playing them. Zeta pretty much saying that he's the Prime people voted for means that the Matrix and the lineage of Primes had lost their importance at that time.

Skids, for example, remained a believer until his Grindcore experiences; seeing as those bots took faith as literally as humans take it nowadays [ie personal choice, sometimes you're pushed towards or away from it due to personal experiences] means that most of them must have not met any religious figures [even if they existed] to fully solidify their belief.
 

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Old 2016-04-03, 09:35 PM   #42
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On the flip side, the senate went after the spark field which was being protected by Pax and chums due to the shape it was in proving Adaptus or something
 

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Old 2016-04-04, 05:25 PM   #43
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Its never really bothered me before, but seeing Ten getting mashed to a pulp has made me wonder about Legislator sentience.

Tyrest said that Legislators don't think in the way a Transformer would, they're not alive, they just follow the code of the law. However Ten proves to be a living, thinking thing and he's seemingly smarter than Rodimus.

How would Tyrest explain this? I'm going to have to look at the past issues now to see why no-one is bothered that Ten is his own person. Its kind of like when Centurion became free of Professor Morris (though I don't know if that's simply because Simon Furman wanted to do something totally different with the character).

But where Centurion, post Prof. Morris could be a writers mistake, Ten is really disturbing! He's seemingly alive. Does that mean all those other Legislators were too? Is Skids a mass murderer? (well he's a murderer, he didn't stop to think in issue 2 whether those Legislators could feel pain or anything).

That's kinda cool in a way, not everyone is bound by the strict code that Prime and the others followed in the old comics where nothing must be hurt, not even a Decepticon... well you can smack them around a bit, but don't kill them because that's not nice. But Skids, Whirl and others are full-on murderers.

That aside, does this mean Tyrest found a way to create life, and if so, how? He doesn't have a Matrix or whatever's used. It still depends on who Tyrest works for I suppose. Did he have a stack of spliced sparks?

But Ten being alive is like your car coming to life and your family being fine with it! And if Ratchet can save him, and they can learn to communicate with him, what can he tell everyone?
 



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Old 2016-04-04, 06:23 PM   #44
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Oh come on now, Chromedome was the lead in a massive forty episode anime! He's got way more of an established prior character than Skids, even if that character was "Slightly more pissed Hot Rod". It's just down to you liking prior Skids. And that's fair enough, I feel the same way about MTMTE Nightbeat prior to his Necrobot epiphany.
Japanese media really isn't all that relevant when discussing Western fiction, though. They diverged in 1987 or so and haven't connected back up since. Even when the "same" show airs in both markets, characters' personalities are drastically different between the two. Just take a look at what Japan did to Beast Wars, or how different Cybertron is compared to Galaxy Force due to trying to glue it onto the tail end of Energon. We have no idea who Chromedome would have been if Hasbro had decided to bring Headmasters over here as season 4.

Also, if we want to be super-pedantic that's not really "Chromedome", it's a Micromaster wearing Chromedome's body as a suit. Maybe there's a runt named Chrome running around on one of the colonies being all Hot Roddy?

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but the IDW version of the character was basically a blank slate having never appeared before in a role of any substance anyway.
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It works, and it works for Skids. To me the IDW-verse is something that's disconnected from all previous Transformers media
I don't buy into that. The cast is 90%+ G1 characters with G1-looking bodies, with tie-ins to a toyline that's explicitly based on pandering to G1 nostalgia. It's just as G1 as Dreamwave or Marvel or Sunbow were. And there's already a G1 Skids.

And the thing is, there's also about 150 G1/G2 characters who don't have a single dollop of personality. And I would much rather read about them than some weirdo wearing a familiar face but acting completely differently. I mean, would Last Stand of the Wreckers be as good if it had grafted new personalities onto Shockwave, Dirge, Scourge, Warpath, Brawn, Powergilde, Sunstreaker, Sideswipe and Inferno instead of making fully fleshed-out characters out of Overlord, Stalker, Snare, Guzzle, Ironfist, Rotorstorm, Topspin, Twin Twist and Pyro? I don't think so.

That's especially the case with third-stringers like Skids, because there's a good chance the new version is going to become the default version because there's just not enough room in our collective consciousness for multiple takes on minor characters. Roberts' Skids might well mean that we never see lovable daydreamer Skids ever again.

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Yeah, I'd be in this camp, especially for minor characters. Obviously you don't want to see every character going wildly different but at the same time, you don't want writers just revisiting old versions.
I'd argue that's a false dichotomy. Not only are you ignoring all the potential in previously-unused characters or new creations like Nautica or Rung, you're also ignoring the potential for characters to change. Just because someone starts out as their familiar G1 self doesn't mean they need to stay that way -- just look at how Starscream's character has changed over the last decade based on the direction that the plot has dragged him in. But the key is that there's a reason for him being a different person than we might expect, and we've watched it play out on-page.

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Originally Posted by Red Dave Prime View Post
The only problem is if we take the direction that ex-RID is on, there is no way any TF can be a non-believer as there is so much stuff linked to the spiritual side of Cybertronian life that it seems impossible that Ratchet would take such a stance. In real life Religion is based purely on faith, but in TF, Alpha Trion, Metroplex and Galvatron all come from that era pretty much.
This is a problem with all Transformers media, not just the IDW books. Being an atheist is pretty irrational when immortal demigods still walk among you, your creator magically possesses politicians to give commands and the embodiment of all evil is trying to eat your planet.

But at that point it's not religion anymore, is it? It's just history.

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How would Tyrest explain this? I'm going to have to look at the past issues now to see why no-one is bothered that Ten is his own person. Its kind of like when Centurion became free of Professor Morris (though I don't know if that's simply because Simon Furman wanted to do something totally different with the character).
Before this issue I don't think anyone noticed that Ten was sentient other than Ratchet, who immediately left. Everyone else seems to think of him more like a pet than a person.

As far as the other Legislators go, they might have had the potential for sentience but it's hard to develop that when your behaviour is controlled by a strict set of unbreakable programmed rules. Ten only started to develop into a person after Tailgate deleted all of that, giving his mind the proverbial room to grow.

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But where Centurion, post Prof. Morris could be a writers mistake, Ten is really disturbing! He's seemingly alive. Does that mean all those other Legislators were too? Is Skids a mass murderer? (well he's a murderer, he didn't stop to think in issue 2 whether those Legislators could feel pain or anything).
Killing someone that's threatening your life isn't murder, no matter how sentient they may or may not have been. It doesn't matter if those Legislators were hard-working parents with a dozen baby robots each to take care of at home, they were actively engaged in trying to kidnap Skids as part of Tyrest's genocidal scheme.
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 06:25 PM   #45
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I'd imagine that the original legislators had the same sort of programming principle that Bludgeon and co tried to use on Thunderwing way back in Stormbringer: give them a target, give them a desired outcome, let them work out the best means of executing that outcome with some rudimentary intelligence and/or learning. But with Ten, Swerve re-programmed him (we assume) and it seems that there is some sort of problem recognition and resolution at work - Ten sees the shield generator, sees the flowers have some sort of energy, connects the dots and expresses himself with an adorable scribble of Trailcutter.

So there's definitely a process at work which can be assumed to be some sort of intelligence, but whether that's true sentience is up for debate. After all, Swerve's nightmare involved Ten yelling at him over the Ambus test. And has anyone really wondered why Ten only says "Ten". What does Ten mean?
 

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Old 2016-04-04, 06:45 PM   #46
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... And has anyone really wondered why Ten only says "Ten". What does Ten mean?
Holy crap, yeah! There's a scary thought. I can't imagine Swerve is so smart that he can reprogram another robot. But then he is a metallurgist so its not like he's dim, he just acts silly.

The other thing about Ten is (apart from him possibly being a massive Bo Derek fan) he did that wonderful artwork of them all. And they weren't exact copies, they were caricatures. And he made models of the other. He's creative and expressive, Roberts must've put that in there for a reason.

And he loves Magnus to bits for some reason. Is that an indication that Ten knows much more than he's letting on? i.e. if he goes all squiffy about Magnus because sees Minimus Ambus beneath the armour, is he partial to him because he's seen Dominus in the past, and Dominus was also good to him?

Agree with Warcry, I got my wires a bit crossed there. As I was writing about Skids I was thinking about Whirl and his torture/killing of the Sweeps, who could be described as about as sentient as a Legislator. Actually I'm just wrong on the whole 'murderer' aspect, but Whirl describes the Sweeps as little more than Turbofoxes... But again a Turbofox is alive, Kaon has one as a pet. Its feral, but its more than a rudimentary brain stem and some commands. Are the Transformers gonna have to rethink what they know about Sweeps, Legislators, Centurions, Guardian Droids etc?

If a mechanic becomes sentient because Swerve has messed with it, would the Necrobot have to generate a statue to it?

Also, I found it interesting the way the Necrobot's statue of Skids represented his older bodywork, not the way he looks now. I wonder if that's a Eugene's reference; how most Transformers upgraded their bodywork and could change quite radically over time. Again like Megatron's statue I guess. Maybe it means nothing, but I thought it was cool.
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 07:01 PM   #47
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Speaking of intelligence, sentience and life it's clear that these two are by the very definition alive, but intelligent?
 

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Old 2016-04-04, 07:18 PM   #48
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Old 2016-04-04, 07:25 PM   #49
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I don't buy into that. The cast is 90%+ G1 characters with G1-looking bodies, with tie-ins to a toyline that's explicitly based on pandering to G1 nostalgia. It's just as G1 as Dreamwave or Marvel or Sunbow were. And there's already a G1 Skids.

And the thing is, there's also about 150 G1/G2 characters who don't have a single dollop of personality. And I would much rather read about them than some weirdo wearing a familiar face but acting completely differently. I mean, would Last Stand of the Wreckers be as good if it had grafted new personalities onto Shockwave, Dirge, Scourge, Warpath, Brawn, Powergilde, Sunstreaker, Sideswipe and Inferno instead of making fully fleshed-out characters out of Overlord, Stalker, Snare, Guzzle, Ironfist, Rotorstorm, Topspin, Twin Twist and Pyro? I don't think so.

That's especially the case with third-stringers like Skids, because there's a good chance the new version is going to become the default version because there's just not enough room in our collective consciousness for multiple takes on minor characters. Roberts' Skids might well mean that we never see lovable daydreamer Skids ever again.

you're also ignoring the potential for characters to change.
Well, I meant, in a very badly phrased way, that I don't mind if characters are portrayed differently from their baseline character profile and / or appearances in another run of comics by a different publisher. The Marvel stuff is probably gospel by dint of so much of the leg work being done by them to shore up the toyline and the cartoon. Sometimes, if done right, it can tie into your latter point there what I have taken totally out of context

Writers will do what they want with a character. There's nothing to say that Galvatron is unstable in his Universe profile, yet the UK Marvel comics have him down as a frightningly powerful lunatic, ditto the cartoon for that matter.

TBH, with the Transformers war being as protracted as it was, I can see anyone with what might be perceived as a more 'civilian' function being pressed into service and perhaps through their abilities, finding themselves working in an area that might belie their Tech Specs. For IDW, the additional string to Skids bow is that he's the ability to pick new skills if he sees someone do something.

...I like memory loss shooty Theoritician Skids. And I like soapy hubcaps Skids who tries to forget about the War. I think IDW Skids probably has that potential too, just that he's not in an environment that would perhaps induce that ability to put the War behind him. Or near a car wash.

Also, do we mind that Scorponok and Shockwave have been more science experimenty in IDW than the leaderly types they were in Marvel? Those are deviations from the G1 templates too.

As for Ten and the Legislators, perhaps they are just A.I. or whatever that thing was about Turbofoxes, where they have the sort sentience of an animal. Maybe like Chappie, Drone Transformers can be programmed to think and feel. I always wonder about the Drones in Transformers, as they have been shown to have some degree of sentience (even if its usually for comedic affect).
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 08:14 PM   #50
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It was an unusual scene. Okay they're in a stressful situation, but Ten was showing Rodimus something, Rodimus tells him to shut up and none of the others either a) twig was Ten was trying to get across, or b) reprimand Rodimus for being a dick to Ten.

Which might mean they all feel that way, that they think of Ten as this halfway house of sentience. Out of all of them I'd have thought Skids would say "Hey, steady on there Rodimus".

On a side note I thought it was wonderful how Whirl got so paternal with the scraplets in the Christmas issue. There was something that was not even a fully fledged life form in his eye, but he fully willing to die for it. Whirl who killed the little robots leader, murdered Killmaster in his sleep, tortured Sweeps to death and gave Megatron life!
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 08:18 PM   #51
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Japanese media really isn't all that relevant when discussing Western fiction, though. They diverged in 1987 or so and haven't connected back up since. Even when the "same" show airs in both markets, characters' personalities are drastically different between the two. Just take a look at what Japan did to Beast Wars, or how different Cybertron is compared to Galaxy Force due to trying to glue it onto the tail end of Energon. We have no idea who Chromedome would have been if Hasbro had decided to bring Headmasters over here as season 4.

Also, if we want to be super-pedantic that's not really "Chromedome", it's a Micromaster wearing Chromedome's body as a suit. Maybe there's a runt named Chrome running around on one of the colonies being all Hot Roddy?




I don't buy into that. The cast is 90%+ G1 characters with G1-looking bodies, with tie-ins to a toyline that's explicitly based on pandering to G1 nostalgia. It's just as G1 as Dreamwave or Marvel or Sunbow were. And there's already a G1 Skids.

And the thing is, there's also about 150 G1/G2 characters who don't have a single dollop of personality. And I would much rather read about them than some weirdo wearing a familiar face but acting completely differently. I mean, would Last Stand of the Wreckers be as good if it had grafted new personalities onto Shockwave, Dirge, Scourge, Warpath, Brawn, Powergilde, Sunstreaker, Sideswipe and Inferno instead of making fully fleshed-out characters out of Overlord, Stalker, Snare, Guzzle, Ironfist, Rotorstorm, Topspin, Twin Twist and Pyro? I don't think so.

That's especially the case with third-stringers like Skids, because there's a good chance the new version is going to become the default version because there's just not enough room in our collective consciousness for multiple takes on minor characters. Roberts' Skids might well mean that we never see lovable daydreamer Skids ever again.
I think your fond memories of G1 Skids tend to affect your opinion on how he's handled so far.

If I'm not mistaken, he only had...5-7 comic appearances in the entire G1 run, and that's including UK storylines.

For reference, G1 Brainstorm had roughly 9 issues, and that was mostly his Nebulan headmaster instead of fully Brainstorm. Pretty much the only things they have in common are that they're both scientists?

Pyro, Guzzle, Ironfist, heck, even Overlord, had established personalities or rather facsimiles and scraps of fiction that represented personalities; why is it that you are not bothered by their subtle and not so subtle reworkings into fiction?

Not trying to antagonize your opinion, but nobody has really seen the lovable daydreamer Skids in what, 31 years? Coming back to the fandom 12 years ago I remembered who Prowl, Tracks, Blitzwing, Sideswipe etc were; I had to look up who Skids was and that he appeared somewhere.
 

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Old 2016-04-04, 08:26 PM   #52
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He still does his loveable thing, he was dancing with Nautica in the space barnacles two-parter. He was all cool and froody going through Tyrest's portal and being fascinated by the glowing orb being on the other side.

As per Skyquake's description, I feel like memory loss shooty Theoretician Skids and soapy hubcaps Skids are the same person. Its the situation that forces him to be one or the other. A bit like Optimus when he was having one of his crises in the comics 30 years ago.
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 08:35 PM   #53
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Is Dominus Ambus Ten? Is that why he likes Magnus? But then why wouldn't he recognise Rewind? Damn. Or maybe he likes him in the way a cat likes an uninterested person.

This is why I love the comic (again); a near pointless background character who is the butt of a not massively liked comedy character has suddenly taken on 78x more importance.

And he's already crossed the path now. If he survives the next issue, they've all got to treat him with mountains more respect, try and work out how to properly communicate with him and he becomes a significantly more important character or.... he's going to die!
 
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Old 2016-04-04, 09:19 PM   #54
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And has anyone really wondered why Ten only says "Ten". What does Ten mean?
I assumed it was the same as what the legislators were saying before: a reference to part of Cybertron's old legal code. Though what that would be, I have no idea.

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Well, I meant, in a very badly phrased way, that I don't mind if characters are portrayed differently from their baseline character profile and / or appearances in another run of comics by a different publisher. The Marvel stuff is probably gospel by dint of so much of the leg work being done by them to shore up the toyline and the cartoon. Sometimes, if done right, it can tie into your latter point there what I have taken totally out of context
It really doesn't tie together, though. IDW Skids didn't "change" into being who he is, he just showed up one day and was a completely different character from who Skids should be. Even in the Shadowplay-era flashbacks, where it would make sense for him to be more theoreticiany since he hadn't spent the last four million years learning how to be perfect at everything, he's still defined by his superpower (or his grappling hook, that one time...). And actually, if he was written like 80s Skids in the flashback timeframe I probably wouldn't be bothered all that much beyond the general "his superpower is dreadfully boring" problem.

This isn't an example of a character changing. It's a completely new character appearing with a familiar name slapped on it. It's like if a new G1 continuity showed up and the writers decided to make Grimlock a coward and Jazz hopelessly uncool or Optimus Prime an amoral terrorist for no reason other than they wanted to have a character around with those traits. And if the character has nothing in common with the traditional portrayal of Skids to begin with, then why is the character Skids?

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Writers will do what they want with a character. There's nothing to say that Galvatron is unstable in his Universe profile, yet the UK Marvel comics have him down as a frightningly powerful lunatic, ditto the cartoon for that matter.
That's not a case of the writers not following the profile, though. That's a case of the profile being poorly-written and not reflecting the personality that had already been established for him by the people who created Galvatron in the first place (the TFU profiles for all the movie characters are sort of a hack job, honestly). Or in other words, it's the profile that was wrong, not Furman for writing Galvatron as a lunatic.

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Also, do we mind that Scorponok and Shockwave have been more science experimenty in IDW than the leaderly types they were in Marvel? Those are deviations from the G1 templates too.
Actually, Science Shockwave can **** right off. That characterization is a huge blight that Dreamwave left on the franchise, and also a great illustration of how a new version of a character can completely overwrite the original. When was the last time we saw evil Vulcan warlord Shockwave, or for that matter ultra-loyal henchman Shockwave? They're basically gone now because he's been pigeonholed as "science guy who says 'logic' a lot".

Scorponok got up to his share of mad science and zany schemes in the old comics, though! It wasn't until Furman took over writing the character (or, in-universe, until Zarak had almost completely suppressed Scorponok's original personality) that he became the noble villain that so many fans look back on fondly. And he was really only that guy for a couple issues before dying.

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I think your fond memories of G1 Skids tend to affect your opinion on how he's handled so far.
And I could just as easily say that you're letting your fondness for New!Skids affect your opinion on whether or not the original character should have been respected. It bothers me because I think a character should be defined by more than their name and how they look. If their behaviours and motivations are completely different, then they're a different person and shouldn't be tacked on as a "new version" of an existing character. It does a disservice to both the old and the new.

(This isn't just a "Roberts" or even a "Transformers" problem for me. It happens all the time in all sorts of fiction and it's almost always a bad idea.)

I don't actually like G1 Skids all that much either, for the record. In fact I think he's kind of forgettable, but that's not the same as saying he should be forgotten.

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If I'm not mistaken, he only had...5-7 comic appearances in the entire G1 run, and that's including UK storylines.

For reference, G1 Brainstorm had roughly 9 issues, and that was mostly his Nebulan headmaster instead of fully Brainstorm. Pretty much the only things they have in common are that they're both scientists?
Those are hardly comparable. Skids was the lead character in several issues and got a lot of character development. Brainstorm mostly stood in the background while Fortress Maximus did stuff. I'm not even sure if he showed the slightest flash of personality at all.

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Pyro, Guzzle, Ironfist, heck, even Overlord, had established personalities or rather facsimiles and scraps of fiction that represented personalities; why is it that you are not bothered by their subtle and not so subtle reworkings into fiction?
Guzzle is the only one I can think of that had actually done anything pre-LSOTW. And even that was pretty scant, unless I'm forgetting something -- he was a cheerleader for Magnus in the UK books and showed up in Galvatron II's evil future to say a line or two and die. Like Brainstorm, I don't recall him getting any real personality or character development when he was around.

Beyond that I'm not sure any of the newbies in Wreckers had anything to build on but their tech specs, and the later tech-spec bios are so generic that you could almost make the characters into anyone and get away with it. Overlord's English-language bio doesn't even give him a personality at all beyond wanting to fight, Guzzle is a battle-hardened soldier who doesn't make friends easily, Pyro is a generic superhero and Ironfist is a legendary weapon-maker (albeit much more of a badass than he turned out to be). Even someone like Chromedome with a full-length TFU profile barely had any personality to speak of. Though surprisingly, the bits of it that are there track a lot better with the Roberts version of the character than I thought they would. Computer programmer who reprogrammed his fellow Autobots' brains and left Cybertron to find a peaceful existence under the wing of a charismatic leader? Not actually all that far off! The IDW take is just a darker spin on the profile.

But even if they didn't mesh with their profile bios, would it bother me? There's a world of difference between reinventing a character with a well-established personality and starring roles in past fiction and reinventing someone whose only personality comes from a paragraph of flavour text on the back of a toy box. It's annoying when it happens to a favourite of mine (like, say, Spinister or Skullcruncher), but it's a completely different situation.
 
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Old 2016-04-05, 05:32 PM   #55
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I assumed it was the same as what the legislators were saying before: a reference to part of Cybertron's old legal code. Though what that would be, I have no idea.
As it's the Tyrest Accord and Magnus knows it intimately, so presumably it isn't related to that or that particular section of the Accord doesn't apply any more
 

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Old 2016-04-05, 05:51 PM   #56
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Those are hardly comparable. Skids was the lead character in several issues and got a lot of character development. Brainstorm mostly stood in the background while Fortress Maximus did stuff. I'm not even sure if he showed the slightest flash of personality at all.


But even if they didn't mesh with their profile bios, would it bother me? There's a world of difference between reinventing a character with a well-established personality and starring roles in past fiction and reinventing someone whose only personality comes from a paragraph of flavour text on the back of a toy box. It's annoying when it happens to a favourite of mine (like, say, Spinister or Skullcruncher), but it's a completely different situation.
I guess this is the part where we agree to disagree on this thing

For example, whether we like it or not [I don't!] Overlord had an existing personality in a previous cartoon, which pretty much has nothing in common with how he is now.

G1 Skids, for me, was just a guy that appeared in a couple of issues and was forgotten even in that timeline.

The franchise is full of characters like that from pretty much every series; sometimes hi and dies resonate with some fans [a toy they had, a memorable story at that time, you get the idea] but I personally find G1 Skids extremely minor and insignificant in the long run of the franchise, so I'm not that bothered by this change. As I said in my previous post, I had no interaction with the comics whatsoever when growing up, so Skids was pretty much a guy that had two minor appearances or so in the G1 show

If anything, it's this iteration that has made him as popular or well-known in the fandom as he is.
 

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Old 2016-04-05, 05:57 PM   #57
inflatable dalek
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Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Japanese media really isn't all that relevant when discussing Western fiction, though. They diverged in 1987 or so and haven't connected back up since. Even when the "same" show airs in both markets, characters' personalities are drastically different between the two. Just take a look at what Japan did to Beast Wars, or how different Cybertron is compared to Galaxy Force due to trying to glue it onto the tail end of Energon. We have no idea who Chromedome would have been if Hasbro had decided to bring Headmasters over here as season 4.
Western fiction diverted from itself a long time ago as well. Is Grimlock a lovable idiot who speaks funny, or a smart embittered warrior? Is Optimus a self doubting conflicted character or John Wayne? Drastically different takes on the same characters across the different media is a stock G1 trope. Indeed, often in the same media, such as the different ways Furman and Budiansky wrote Blaster or the later deciding that Grimlock's TV persona was the definitive one when he brought the character back.

And to be honest, if Budiansky himself had no problems with ignoring the profiles he came up with (and not only almost certainly not be bothered by others doing the same, he likely has no idea which one Skids was at this point anyway) it's hard to view other authors treating them as equally flexible as in some way sacrilege.

That doesn't man you can't and shouldn't have prefered takes on characters (and I'll huff and puff with the best of them when I think someone is being done wrong), but there's nothing inherently wrong with reinventing established characters drastically.

Plus, MTMTE Skids has gotten to have appeared more than any other version easily now. It's really hard to argue he's not the definitive (which isn't the same as best) take.


Plus of course, Skids is hardly the perfect Mary Sue you paint his as. He's clearly very naive--being far too trusting in Tarn's word and failing to spot what was going on with Getaway despite being an old friend--for starters.
 
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Old 2016-04-05, 06:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Patapsco View Post
As it's the Tyrest Accord and Magnus knows it intimately, so presumably it isn't related to that or that particular section of the Accord doesn't apply any more
Or it's something benign enough to not be worthy of interest? Like maybe Section 10 has to do with theft, and he's just been saying all along "Swerve isn't my legitimate owner!"

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Originally Posted by Knightdramon View Post
I guess this is the part where we agree to disagree on this thing
Yeah, probably. I'm probably giving the impression that I think it's a much bigger idea than I actually do. It's hardly a deal-breaker, just moderately annoying.

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Originally Posted by Knightdramon View Post
For example, whether we like it or not [I don't!] Overlord had an existing personality in a previous cartoon, which pretty much has nothing in common with how he is now.
Kinda? Like I said before, I don't really rate the Japanese fiction as being the same as the Western stuff. But even if I did, Overlord didn't have a personality at all, did he? Mega and Giga, yes, but Overlord was equipment, not a person.

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Originally Posted by Knightdramon View Post
The franchise is full of characters like that from pretty much every series; sometimes hi and dies resonate with some fans [a toy they had, a memorable story at that time, you get the idea] but I personally find G1 Skids extremely minor and insignificant in the long run of the franchise, so I'm not that bothered by this change. As I said in my previous post, I had no interaction with the comics whatsoever when growing up, so Skids was pretty much a guy that had two minor appearances or so in the G1 show
Skids is nowhere near a "hi-then-die" character, though. Between his adventures in the early US book and his role in the UK strip after Time Wars, he got as much exposure as the likes of Nightbeat or Carnivac, and those guys certainly aren't considered throwaways.

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Originally Posted by Knightdramon View Post
If anything, it's this iteration that has made him as popular or well-known in the fandom as he is.
I would disagree with that. Judging by how frenzied the demand for him to get a Generations toy was, and how mad some people were when it was MTMTE-inspired, it seems to me like he had quite a few fans before then too.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Western fiction diverted from itself a long time ago as well. Is Grimlock a lovable idiot who speaks funny, or a smart embittered warrior? Is Optimus a self doubting conflicted character or John Wayne? Drastically different takes on the same characters across the different media is a stock G1 trope. Indeed, often in the same media, such as the different ways Furman and Budiansky wrote Blaster or the later deciding that Grimlock's TV persona was the definitive one when he brought the character back.
That's true, for sure. But those sort of character divergences are a headache to be avoided, not something to be striven for. Just because people made mistakes in the 80s is no reason for today's writers to be making the same ones.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
That doesn't man you can't and shouldn't have prefered takes on characters (and I'll huff and puff with the best of them when I think someone is being done wrong), but there's nothing inherently wrong with reinventing established characters drastically.
Yes there is, and you say it yourself:

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Plus, MTMTE Skids has gotten to have appeared more than any other version easily now. It's really hard to argue he's not the definitive (which isn't the same as best) take.
It's not a perfect zero-sum game, but when a new version of a third-stringer like Skids gets this much attention it all but ensures that this is what Skids is going to be in the future. Like him or not, the old Skids is basically dead as a character now. Just like what happened to the interesting 80s versions of Shockwave once some idiot at Dreamwave decided that he was going to be Science Guy and it caught on.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Plus of course, Skids is hardly the perfect Mary Sue you paint his as. He's clearly very naive--being far too trusting in Tarn's word and failing to spot what was going on with Getaway despite being an old friend--for starters.
No, that just makes him even more annoying.

"Oh, look at how innocent he is! Even after all he's been through and everything that's happened to him, he's still so pure and good and perfect! *swoon*"

Just like how he's somehow lily-white and guilt-free enough to walk right into Robot Heaven in spite of apparently having been a part of Prowl's secret wetwork brainwashing squad.
 
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Old 2016-04-05, 07:07 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Skids is nowhere near a "hi-then-die" character, though. Between his adventures in the early US book and his role in the UK strip after Time Wars, he got as much exposure as the likes of Nightbeat or Carnivac, and those guys certainly aren't considered throwaways.
That's the Carnivac that Nick Roche has just reinvented as an anarchist?

Skids also had about as much of a presence as Guzzle (who along with the other Sparklers is pretty much Magnus' right hand man through 1988), who you previously dismissed as being a "Blank" that was OK for Last Stand to use. I think your love of Skids is really biasing you badly here.


Quote:
I would disagree with that. Judging by how frenzied the demand for him to get a Generations toy was, and how mad some people were when it was MTMTE-inspired, it seems to me like he had quite a few fans before then too.
But then you get people bemoaning when the toys aren't MTMTE based (as happened with Whirl). People just like to moan really.


Quote:
That's true, for sure. But those sort of character divergences are a headache to be avoided, not something to be striven for. Just because people made mistakes in the 80s is no reason for today's writers to be making the same ones.
I'm not sure it was mistakes in G1 as no one regarded themselves as working within the same baliwick, be it cartoon or comics. The different iterations of the franchise were given the same basic starting points and told to go to it. And it worked as often as it didn't. I'm not the biggest cartoon Grimlock fan, but it's hard to argue he wasn't massively popular. To the point his original creator would up going with it on the comic.


Quote:
Yes there is, and you say it yourself:
Well, definite at the time of writing. I've no idea if someone will manage to change that in years to come. Though realistically, as you say, however good a new takes on Skids someone might come up with, they'd have to do a lot to overcome four-plus years of secondary lead status. That doesn't mean that if they have a good Skids story that requires something different of him they shouldn't go for it.
 
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Old 2016-04-05, 07:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
That's the Carnivac that Nick Roche has just reinvented as an anarchist?
You mean the anarchist with a sense of honour acting out violently because he thinks he and his have been betrayed? Honestly I don't see much difference in personality from the little bit we've seen so far, just a difference in circumstances. I concede the last two issues could prove me totally wrong if they ever come out, though.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Skids also had about as much of a presence as Guzzle (who along with the other Sparklers is pretty much Magnus' right hand man through 1988), who you previously dismissed as being a "Blank" that was OK for Last Stand to use. I think your love of Skids is really biasing you badly here.
You mean the same Skids that I called "kind of forgettable" and said I didn't really like a few posts earlier? In case I wasn't clear enough before, I'll say it again: I don't particularly care about Skids, either his boring 80s self or his annoying MTMTE self, but that's not the point.

My familiarity with him might be making me weight him as more important then Guzzle and co., but honestly I don't think I've read the 80s stories starring Skids any more often than the one time I've read the UK stories with Guzzle in them. And I had no idea who Skids was until I was an adult, while I had Guzzle's toy, so it's not a childhood nostalgia thing.

Did Guzzle actually show some personality in those UK books and I'm just not remembering it? I'm seriously drawing a blank beyond "one of those three guys with Magnus".

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I'm not sure it was mistakes in G1 as no one regarded themselves as working within the same baliwick, be it cartoon or comics. The different iterations of the franchise were given the same basic starting points and told to go to it. And it worked as often as it didn't.
Maybe "mistake" is the wrong word, but the writers (usually, but not always, the cartoon ones) just ignored the starting points they were given and did their own thing, and the showrunners didn't care enough to tell them to do it properly since they were just shilling toys anyway. It worked about as well as a franchise can when most of the creative types didn't give a damn about it. But that's hardly the situation now, and I do tend to hold self-identified fans to a higher standard in that regard than low-rent hacks who only took the job because they couldn't find "real" work (hence why you don't see me complaining vocally about Costa screwing with characters).

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I'm not the biggest cartoon Grimlock fan, but it's hard to argue he wasn't massively popular. To the point his original creator would up going with it on the comic.
The impression I had was that Budiansky was told to go with the cartoon-style speech patterns, not that he wanted to. If nothing else because wanting to would have required him to actually sit down at some point, watch the cartoon and enjoy it...
 
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