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Old 2016-06-14, 11:14 AM   #1
Cyberstrike nTo
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Angry How many will have to die before we get rid of weapons of war?!?!

It's another mass shooting, this time it was at a gay club in Orlando, Flordia. The shooter was a homophobic ISIS wanna be with enough firepower to hold off the cops for 3 hours. And before any gun nuts chime in with that extremely stupid chestnut about the only to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun there was a cop outside the club and he did shoot at the terrorist and guess what? It's a load of BULL SHIT! There are still 49 innocent people that are dead and over 50 are wounded! So that shit doesn't work. Stop thinking that it's like Die Hard or Lethal Weapon.


How we reinstate the assault weapons ban or at the very least we ban suspects on the terrorist watch list (this monster was allegedly on that list) from buying guns?

Oh wait I live in America the only country in the history of the world that lets monsters buy weapons of mass murder and use them because the NRA and other gun rights buy off our politicians so that weapon manufacturers can make more money.

This isn't just sick.
This isn't just horrible.

This is pure 100% evil. Sure lets blame the shooter, blame ISIS, and radical Islam and radical religion in general, but also lets also blame the people of USA for allowing this sick son of a bitch to legally buy weapons of mass murder and yes I include myself.

**** the NRA!
 



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Old 2016-06-14, 05:06 PM   #2
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What appalls me is all these major companies and organizations who have been spewing anti-gay rhetoric in the past suddenly playing all nice and shit in the wake of the shooting, as if their rhetoric wasn't at least partly responsible for the kind of mentality that leads into something like this happening in the first place.

And I would say I'm never going to understand the "how am I supposed to explain two guys kissing to my kids" kind of mentality, but I understand it perfectly; if you really wanted to, you could do that easily. No, you're just using your own children as an excuse for your bigotry.
 
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Old 2016-06-14, 07:22 PM   #3
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Never understood the perpetuation of the right to bear arms, America being how it is now (i.e. heavily populated with law enforcement officers and agencies), it seems unnecessary to hang onto the conventions of settlers and so on to justify arms sales to the public.

Sadly, I don't think this will ever change, no matter how many attrocities continue to happen in the US. Obama's on a hiding to nothing trying to do anything about it and what he has been trying to do has only come very late in the day of his presidency.

Until some Republican senator, NRA fella or person who runs one of these hardware firms suddenly finds his or her family on the receiving end of one his or her products that their country lets anyone buy, then nothing will change.


And yes, the global sycophancy in the wake of these shootings is just nauseating and deeply cynical.
 
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Old 2016-06-14, 09:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyquake87 View Post
Never understood the perpetuation of the right to bear arms, America being how it is now (i.e. heavily populated with law enforcement officers and agencies), it seems unnecessary to hang onto the conventions of settlers and so on to justify arms sales to the public.

Because American conservatives (and most right-wing bastards in general in this country) believe in "small government", whatever the hell that means, and there are some who are actually dreaming of an American Civil War Part 2 to stop the tyranny of "big government" never mind the fact that most of the weekend warriors would shit their pants and get creamed the most powerful military in the history of the human race.



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Until some Republican senator, NRA fella or person who runs one of these hardware firms suddenly finds his or her family on the receiving end of one his or her products that their country lets anyone buy, then nothing will change.
I doubt that. Any Republican would be ran out of Washington DC on a rail if they even said that supported common sense gun control laws other than mental health support which they never want to pay for.

Hell most of the rank and file NRA members (the everyday people) support Universal background checks, closing the gun show loophole, and etc but because the weapon manufacturers are the ones paying the bills for the NRA, and some claim they only joined so they can go to the local firing ranges and shoot off their guns.

I think the NRA should be considered a terrorist support group if not an out right terrorist group.
 



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Old 2016-06-14, 10:55 PM   #5
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And before any gun nuts chime in
Do we have any gun nuts here? Most of the board are Brits who I'd imagine have never even seen a gun.

I think I might be the only one here who owns any, but even I think that the situation in the US is insane. There's a deeply-ingrained hardcore paranoia at work that resists any kind of new firearms legislation, and who'll lash out at anyone who dares to suggest that maybe they don't need 30-round magazines or armour-piercing rounds. Or that maybe it'd be a good idea if people on terrorism watchlists or with severe mental health issues weren't allowed to buy an AR-15. Or that maybe people shouldn't be concealed-carrying a handgun everywhere they go.

I mean seriously, guns are cool and all, but you know what I like more than guns? Not having to worry about being shot every time I go out in public!

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Never understood the perpetuation of the right to bear arms, America being how it is now (i.e. heavily populated with law enforcement officers and agencies), it seems unnecessary to hang onto the conventions of settlers and so on to justify arms sales to the public.
Well...think of it like this. Changing the US constitution is a demanding process that requires a lot of different authorities to sign off at the state and federal levels. Even if enough government officials actually wanted to, how many of them would back out of it after a having a good think and realizing just how many angry extremists are going to be gunning for them if they try? And that's before you factor in all the NRA campaign donations lining the pockets of people in power.

Without repealing the second amendment there's not much that the government can actually do to stop weapons from proliferating, and the odds of that happening any time soon are practically nil, so...what can they do?

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I think the NRA should be considered a terrorist support group if not an out right terrorist group.
You know, the sad thing is that the NRA used to be a good organization that advocated for the safe use of firearms, helped hunters and target shooters network, etc. They used to be completed apolitical. But somewhere along the way they got co-opted and turned into a mouthpiece for firearms manufacturers whose only purpose is to rile up paranoia so that people will buy more guns.
 
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Old 2016-06-15, 02:00 PM   #6
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The American constitution does feel like the bible at times in how many different readings there are of what it actually says. Stupid founding fathers.

I actually saw one of the original copies of the constitution at the Magna Carta exhibition at the British library last year. Needlessly small and hard to make out writing, no wonder those aliens in that Star Trek episode couldn't read it properly.

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I think I might be the only one here who owns any, but even I think that the situation in the US is insane.
See, in a big rural country like Canada it makes sense there'd be a lot of gun ownership for farmers and hunters. And equally farmers in the US and even UK should probably at least have a shotgun to deal with threats to their livestock (it's a far saner way of dealing with foxes for a start). It's just about everyone else who doesn't need one. Though taxi drivers should be allowed a gun in case Leslie Grantham gets in the back.

I agree with Phil Jupitus when he said if the UK had gun laws like the US we'd easily and quickly outstrip them in terms of gun deaths and massacres because we're more pressed in and more uptight.

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Without repealing the second amendment there's not much that the government can actually do to stop weapons from proliferating, and the odds of that happening any time soon are practically nil, so...what can they do?
Thing is I would have thought this could already be covered by current legislation. The right to bare arms isn't the right to bare any arms you like, an American can't walk down the street with a rocket launcher or a nuclear suitcase so there's clearly a list of restricted weapons people are banned from owning. Add the assault riffles to that. Simples, as Americans say.
 
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Old 2016-06-15, 05:47 PM   #7
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The American constitution does feel like the bible at times in how many different readings there are of what it actually says.
Constitutions in general are a headache. I mean, the Canadian one is only thirty-odd years old and it already feels like it's carved in a stone tablet send down from on high, with it being so difficult to change anything even when everyone agrees that something is wrong. Sometimes I wonder if you Brits are right, with your "no, we're not writing anything down, everyone knows how the country works!" approach to having a constitution.

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Stupid founding fathers.
Honestly, the quasi-religious reverence that some corners of the US seem to have for their founding fathers is a big part of the problem. There seems to be this idea that they're infallible, and that everything they wanted was right and their vision for the world is how the US should always be. Which, regardless of what you think for the founders as people, is a silly position to take when the world has changed so much over the last few centuries.

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See, in a big rural country like Canada it makes sense there'd be a lot of gun ownership for farmers and hunters. And equally farmers in the US and even UK should probably at least have a shotgun to deal with threats to their livestock (it's a far saner way of dealing with foxes for a start). It's just about everyone else who doesn't need one. Though taxi drivers should be allowed a gun in case Leslie Grantham gets in the back.
Honestly even then, "need" is probably stretching it. Farmers do occasionally have to drop a coyote that gets into their livestock, but nowadays the vast majority of folks who own guns in Canada (legally, anyway) do so for recreational reasons.

But the attitude towards guns here isn't miles different than what you expressed -- most Canadian gun owners see them as a tool, or as equipment for a sport they enjoy (hunting or target shooting, or protection from animals while wilderness hiking) rather than as an end unto themselves.

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I agree with Phil Jupitus when he said if the UK had gun laws like the US we'd easily and quickly outstrip them in terms of gun deaths and massacres because we're more pressed in and more uptight.
I honestly don't think that's true. Obviously you'd see a big uptick in shooting deaths because easy-to-get handguns would immediately become the tool of choice for street gangs. But I don't think you'd ever reach the same level as the US, because Brits don't have the same sort of attitude toward guns as Americans do.

Gun owners in the US seem to be split into two groups: one with the same attitudes as their Canadian counterparts, and another who want the guns for "protection". You don't really see that second group here, or at least not in large numbers, and I doubt you'd see them develop in the UK either because you simply don't have a history of it. And the second group are the source of most of the problems. Because they've convinced themselves that they're not safe without guns, they see any attempt to restrict dangerous people's access to guns as a direct attack on themselves: the first step on a slippery slope that will eventually lead to them not being able to have guns either. So every attempt at controlling guns only makes them more militant.

Since they want the guns for protection, they think of them differently than the recreational users. It's not a tool or piece of sporting equipment to them, it's something that they own for the specific purpose of killing "the government"/spree shooters/terrorists/black people/whoever else they're terrified of. Most of them are just paranoid and not a huge threat to others, but far too many make the transition from "I have this so I can shoot someone if I need to" to "I have this so I can shoot someone if I want to". And that's how you get people shooting their spouses or neighbours in a fit of rage, or flying off the handle entirely and taking their otherwise-impotent rage out on crowds of innocents.

They also have a serious problem with people buying guns with no idea how to handle them, since you don't have to do any safety training and the "I'mma protect myself from THEM" crowd don't realize that an untrained person is way more likely to shoot themselves or their family than an intruder.

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Mind, it's all a penis substitute in your case. Don't deny it!
Well, one of us is obviously very worried about the size of my penis, but it doesn't sound like it's me.

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Thing is I would have thought this could already be covered by current legislation. The right to bare arms isn't the right to bare any arms you like, an American can't walk down the street with a rocket launcher or a nuclear suitcase so there's clearly a list of restricted weapons people are banned from owning. Add the assault riffles to that. Simples, as Americans say.
This sort of thing has been tried, but they can never get it to stick. A big problem with that is that the American judiciary is so heavily political that as soon as a lawsuit landed in front of a Republican judge backed up by a Republican appeals court, the new law would get tossed out and they'd be back to square one.

A lot of high-crime cities have enacted handgun bans (and handguns are actually a much bigger problem and claim far more lives, but nobody talks about it because they usually do it one at a time in back alleys and drug dens instead of in attention-grabbing massacres) only to see them struck down by the courts one at a time as unconstitutional. If they tried to ban semi-auto, high capacity rifles the exact same thing would happen. And probably even quicker, actually, because in a lot of cases the only thing separating a normal hunting rifle from a military-style one is how many rounds you can store in the (usually detachable and replaceable) magazine.

(Which is why we're a lot stricter about magazine capacity than actually banning guns up here -- so you can buy an AR-15 or an AK-lookalike, but you won't be able to put more than five bullets into it, so you're going to have a rough time massacring a crowd with it. Though why you'd want such an ugly POS I can't imagine.)

Thought they've managed to keep the sale of new full-auto machine guns banned since the 1980s, somehow. I guess that's a start?
 
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Old 2016-06-16, 01:31 AM   #8
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I just don't know. The way things are now obviously don't work, but it's going to take a practically extinction level event to do anything to change the gun laws. In my personal opinion, if you've ever been on a watch list, had psychiatric care, or gone to prison, you shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun. That won't stop the back alley transactions, but it's a start.

We can't go all draconian and take away all the guns, because that will cause riots in the streets. Well, okay, more riots in the streets.

We can't drive trucks down the roads, tossing out handfuls of guns to everybody, either.

Which leaves me with one option: how's the job market in Canada and the UK? What's housing like? And how hard is it to request political asylum?
 

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Old 2016-06-16, 06:41 PM   #9
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And now apparently even in the heavily-regulated UK it's ridiculously easy for a single disgruntled lunatic to gun down his MP when he disagrees with her stance on the EU. What the **** is wrong with people?

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Which leaves me with one option: how's the job market in Canada and the UK? What's housing like? And how hard is it to request political asylum?
I can't speak for the UK, but I'm afraid Canada's once-great immigration system is fully under the control of the corporations now. It's hard to get in unless you're a millionaire or a temporary foreign worker (code for third-worlders that corporations exploit at minimum wage for years, then get kicked out of the country when they don't need them anymore). Middle-class folks, or even working-class ones looking to become permanent residents, get stuck waiting for years and paying thousands of dollars in processing fees unless they get incredibly lucky.

Although over the years a lot of Americans have pretended they're coming here on vacation and then just never left, like so many Vietnam draft dodgers. Even if they catch you, the odds of them actually bothering to deport you would be minimal.
 
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Old 2016-06-16, 07:28 PM   #10
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And now apparently even in the heavily-regulated UK it's ridiculously easy for a single disgruntled lunatic to gun down his MP when he disagrees with her stance on the EU. What the **** is wrong with people?
That happened not so far away from me too Just a few miles down the road.

Thinking about it, our country does feel like its on the verge of something happening, but I don't think it'll be very good... our society does seem to be full of simmering thats about to boil over. Business seems to be engaged in an insane rush to the bottom which results in low/ flat standards of living , there's pressures from living in a struggling economy with EU freedom of movement, ten or so years of a Labour government that created a system that's made vast tracts of the population hugely reliant on overly generous benefits, a huge financial crash, austerity, pointless wars in the middle-east, tax avoidance, the huge disparity of the vast majority of this country's wealth being concentrated in the South, the Scottish and Welsh vying for more independence/ devolved powers, failing infrastructure, privatisation of key services that works against the very people that use it, a health service that is struggling to keep going and likely to tip over into privatisation, an education system that's been broken up and given to any tin-pot organisation that fancies a go, PFI, LLP, London being used as the money laundering capital of the world, super-injunctions, the exciting development of the Trans-Atlantic Trade Partnership which will allow corporate America to do whatever the hell it likes...and I think the final straw is for a lot of people over here, being part of a European organisation that's ultimate aim is to create a huge migrant workforce that's inter-bred and inter-mingled to prevent any further wars at the cost of countries having any indentity, just key industries that supply a 'super-state', but keeps a lot of its ultimate aims and objectives opaque and hidden. The secrecy and petty bickering amongst our politicians over this issue has also helped obscure the facts and no-one can have a sensible discussion about genuine concerns without being labelled a racist or right-wing...its just...unsuprising, sad though it is, that someone has now ended up dead.

I think in the UK we've really lost faith in our political masters, they've all largely migrated to the 'centre ground' and that means there's no real choice. There's also the insipid whispering from big business into the ears of politicians ("Lobbying is the next big scandal waiting to happen" said David Cameron, whose current government continues to listen to er, Lobbyists...) is also reaching epidemic proportions...
 
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Old 2016-06-16, 08:07 PM   #11
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I was reading elsewhere that this is the first sort of step down the path that Germany took in the 1920s and I thought it was bollocks, but then I thought about it a bit more. We're having a ridiculously divisive referendum that while the leaders of each campaign and say is about taking back power, and money and all that stuff it's not: it's being fought squarely on lines of race and one side is spouting some stuff that's barely concealed racism. I mean, just look at this shit:





Now tell me which is for Brexit, and which is ripped directly from a 1930s Nazi propaganda film?
 

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Old 2016-06-16, 08:33 PM   #12
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Its brilliant, isn't it?
 
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Old 2016-06-16, 08:38 PM   #13
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Its brilliant, isn't it?
if by brilliant you mean "thinking about finding a deserted Atlantic island to live in for the rest of my life (not long)?" then yeah, it is
 

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Old 2016-06-16, 08:52 PM   #14
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I think I might be the only one here who owns any, but even I think that the situation in the US is insane. There's a deeply-ingrained hardcore paranoia at work that resists any kind of new firearms legislation, and who'll lash out at anyone who dares to suggest that maybe they don't need 30-round magazines or armour-piercing rounds. Or that maybe it'd be a good idea if people on terrorism watchlists or with severe mental health issues weren't allowed to buy an AR-15. Or that maybe people shouldn't be concealed-carrying a handgun everywhere they go.

I mean seriously, guns are cool and all, but you know what I like more than guns? Not having to worry about being shot every time I go out in public!
Nope! I have two currently, shortly more when I have a chance to get back to my home town and pick them up.

They're for hunting though - lever action rifles and traditional pump shotguns. Personally, I've never seen the point in owning firearms have use a 30-round magazine. The max rounds I use is 5. Mine are also locked in the basement. And also locked with trigger locks. And only come out when it's October/November when season starts.

I agree with your statement too - when it comes to any type of gun reform, most gun-loving Americans go apeshit like the government is going to pound on your door and physically remove them from your hands.
 


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Old 2016-06-16, 09:23 PM   #15
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I think most of the world doesn't see "the right to bear arms" in of itself a terrible thing. But there's an entire world of difference between "anyone can have a gun" and "you can have a gun provided we do a full background check just to make sure you won't go on a killing spree". The problem we have when we look at the American gun laws is that there are no checks at all in the process. I mean, there's a video from a HBO special with Bryant Gumbel that shows a 13 year old kid trying to buy the following items: beer, porn, cigarettes, lottery tickets, gun. Which do you think he was asked for any form of identification for, and which transaction did you think he was able to complete?
 

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Old 2016-06-16, 09:44 PM   #16
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Thinking about it, our country does feel like its on the verge of something happening, but I don't think it'll be very good... our society does seem to be full of simmering thats about to boil over.
I don't think it's just you, or your country. It's the same over here in Canada, and I've heard people from all over the political spectrum from all over North America and Europe say the same things. I think most of the problems you mention are the result of Western society being changed into a form that best suits big business, instead of businesses being forced to adapt to suit the needs of society. That's left us with an economy that's been gutted of several key sectors by offshoring and huge swaths of the population that are unemployable because the only sorts of work that they were capable of doing for is no longer being done. Meanwhile kids can't even get hired out of university, let alone high school, old people can't retire because the banks flushed their life savings and newcomers are increasingly being treated like chattel instead of new Canadians.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a big extremist push over here in the next decade, once everyone realizes that rock star Trudeau is just as much of a corporate shill as the last five PMs, though with Canada being what it is we're far more likely to see a leftist nationalist movement than maple-flavoured Trumpism.

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I think in the UK we've really lost faith in our political masters, they've all largely migrated to the 'centre ground' and that means there's no real choice.
This is a huge problem too. All the major parties want the same things, because their backers all want the same things. That's why clowns like Trump, Le Pen in France or your own boy Farrage have gotten such a strong following. When people hate the status quo and all the "proper" parties are in favour of it, where else do they have to go but the fringes? You hear a lot of talk about "protest votes" in chatter around the US election, and it really sounds like a lot of people hate Trump but plan to vote for him anyway just to give the establishment a middle finger.

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They're for hunting though - lever action rifles and traditional pump shotguns. Personally, I've never seen the point in owning firearms have use a 30-round magazine. The max rounds I use is 5. Mine are also locked in the basement. And also locked with trigger locks. And only come out when it's October/November when season starts.
I get how blasting 30 rounds into a target in 10 seconds might give someone an adrenaline rush, and it's a shame to have to restrict someone's enjoyment of their hobby because there's crazies out there who'd abuse it, but sadly that's the world we live in. And I can't see much practical civilian use for 10+ round magazines either. In the bush it's just extra weight that you're not going to get any benefit from, so unless you plan on declaring war on the government it's not much good outside of a firing range.

I've just got a shotgun and a couple .22s personally, as I don't have too much storage space at home and can borrow most anything you can think of from my old man if I want to go hunting big game. I've been thinking of picking up a lever-action though, because I'm left-handed and shoot right, and working a bolt with my off hand can be a bit awkward. And since I'm a small child inside that will never stop thinking that "cowboy guns" are awesome, lever seems like the way to go. Mind if I pick your brains one day?

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I agree with your statement too - when it comes to any type of gun reform, most gun-loving Americans go apeshit like the government is going to pound on your door and physically remove them from your hands.
You can blame a generation of gun manufacturer fearmongering for that. Shit, since Sandy Hook they've played the "Obama's coming, so panic buy while you can!" card so often I think even they've started to believe it.

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The problem we have when we look at the American gun laws is that there are no checks at all in the process. I mean, there's a video from a HBO special with Bryant Gumbel that shows a 13 year old kid trying to buy the following items: beer, porn, cigarettes, lottery tickets, gun. Which do you think he was asked for any form of identification for, and which transaction did you think he was able to complete?
That's definitely illegal, even in the US, though obviously it doesn't stop it from happening. My understanding is that reputable dealers do have to run background checks in the US and have to void the sale if the person gets flagged as underage, a felon or crazy person. Though that doesn't actually stop anyone from getting guns since they can legally buy whatever they want from private sellers with no checks, so it's more of an inconvenience.
 
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Old 2016-06-17, 06:17 PM   #17
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I think most of the world doesn't see "the right to bear arms" in of itself a terrible thing. But there's an entire world of difference between "anyone can have a gun" and "you can have a gun provided we do a full background check just to make sure you won't go on a killing spree". The problem we have when we look at the American gun laws is that there are no checks at all in the process. I mean, there's a video from a HBO special with Bryant Gumbel that shows a 13 year old kid trying to buy the following items: beer, porn, cigarettes, lottery tickets, gun. Which do you think he was asked for any form of identification for, and which transaction did you think he was able to complete?
I haven't seen that video yet, but I understand the point. As I understand it, there is supposed to be a check system for backgrounds, ID, etc. and a 5 day waiting period before purchasing firearms. But maybe that only applies to handguns? I can't 100% recall. The 5-day period may not apply to hunting rifles.

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I've just got a shotgun and a couple .22s personally, as I don't have too much storage space at home and can borrow most anything you can think of from my old man if I want to go hunting big game. I've been thinking of picking up a lever-action though, because I'm left-handed and shoot right, and working a bolt with my off hand can be a bit awkward. And since I'm a small child inside that will never stop thinking that "cowboy guns" are awesome, lever seems like the way to go. Mind if I pick your brains one day? :
Absolutely! I grew up hunting with lever actions, and I still use them. There's definitely some key things to know, especially if you're a lefty. PM me anytime if you need.
 


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Old 2016-06-17, 06:23 PM   #18
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I went to the US and didn't receive any bear arms. I was disappointed.
 

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Old 2016-06-17, 07:19 PM   #19
Skyquake87
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I went to the US and received bare arms. It was hot.


Posted my vote off for the Referendum. I voted Remain, though I think the country is looking like it'll go for leaving the EU.

I'm sure the country will be fine if we leave and its going to take 6 years or something to disentangle us from the EU. I hope people realize that and don't expect some immediate overnight sovereignty.

All the coverage about our murdered MP Jo Cox has made me sad. She was one of the better politicians we've had in this country. That said, some of the press coverage is laying it on a bit thick now (and its only day two!). We'll be clamouring for the Queen to address the nation before you know it...
 
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Old 2016-06-17, 07:44 PM   #20
Patapsco
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I was going to vote remain even if the leave campaign hadn't shifted towards virulent racism, for the same reason that even if I was Scottish I would have voted no in their independence referendum: the sides arguing against the status quo haven't given any compelling evidence that their outcome will be significantly better than what we have now.

With Brexit, it's even worse when multiple independent outlets are saying "This would be extremely terrible if it comes to pass"
 

"When did you first realize that he uses bad grammar to distract you whenever you raise an objection to something he wants to do?"
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