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Old 2017-11-12, 10:45 PM   #1
Cellar Door
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Smile Was Spider-Man: Homecoming a bit of a flop?

No, bear with, I'm fully aware it took $800m +. But am I the only one who thinks Marvel were hoping for more, like the billion plus Iron Man 3 and the Avengers films took for the triumphant return of their marquee character? After all that promotion and fanfare? Is it just that I'm moving in older circles or does no-one really seem to be talking about it all the time like they were for, say, Avengers? That there aren't kids dressed in costumes all over the place and endless memes (the Homecoming ones seem to have all happened before it was released, with Iron Man 4 and the ever-younger Aunt May, etc)? Nothing seems to have had the same sort of impact as, say, the upside-down kiss. Is the bubble just starting to reach its' limits for superhero films? I have a gentlemen's bet with a colleague that <i>Ant-Man and the Wasp</i> is going to underperform; what do you boffins think?
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Old 2017-11-13, 04:25 AM   #2
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I dunno, Thor Ragnarok just broke a record it's opening weekend, but movie attendance is down in NA just in general so I think it just depends on how a movie does in China and I really have no idea what a Chinese movie-goer wants from their movies.
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Old 2017-11-13, 05:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Hound View Post
I really have no idea what a Chinese movie-goer wants from their movies.
Movies like Transformers apparently.
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Old 2017-11-13, 09:10 AM   #4
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I still have yet to see Homecoming... Generally, I like the Marvel films and how they've applied comic-book storytelling to films. I don't feel the need to rush out and see them at the cinema though. Which, where Guardians 2 was concerned, was a good job (decent film, with Ego The Living Planet! FFS - but had that thing where all the popular villains/ characters who weren't 100% good now firmly being portrayed as good guys. hate that). I kind of hope Marvel quit whilst they're ahead after Infinity War, but can't see that happening. Its probably a sign of these films becoming so commonplace that they feel less of an event as they did previously. I think as well, Marvel need to choose their projects carefully - GOTG and Ant-Man have been a fluke and a success riding off the back of the goodwill of their other roster, but now we're firmly heading down the B-list of their roster, you do wonder how sustainable that's going to be. Although not films, Inhumans hasn't turned out so well and I'm curious as to whether Black Panther will do enough to spin-out into the all important trilogy with so much of his interesting back-story told in Civil War...
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Old 2017-11-13, 09:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Cliffjumper View Post
No, bear with, I'm fully aware it took $800m +. But am I the only one who thinks Marvel were hoping for more [...] Is the bubble just starting to reach its' limits for superhero films?
Okay, pretending to work so real quick answer that hasn't been fact checked or really thought out beyond "ooh ooh I want to say words on the internet!":

I think all the box office revenue from Homecoming goes to Sony, so I doubt Marvel are too bothered about how well it does financially, tbh. They can use Spidey in their movies, so if the co-productions continue to bomb for Sony then ultimately they might get him back altogether so something something etc.

I think the "bubble" is at the point where it can sustain a few lower performing movies, tbh. Culturally we're saturated, so in terms of "iconic" moments, it'll depend what circles you move in, and the turnover's so quick that nothing really gets time to soak into the collective consciousness as anything other than "yet another cool moment" before we're onto the next one (Justice League opens on Friday which is a massive ****ing inconvenience because the Punisher also lands on Netflix then - this is the level we've hit).

Personally I think that so long as the industry is savvy enough not to treat all superhero films as the same genre it'll be okay for a while yet. I think three-four consecutive movies that take less than the one before is the point that we need to worry.

Disney/Marvel have shown they're smart enough to be able to identify when a sub-franchise might struggle and course-correct. Ie looking at Thor: The Dark World and getting Taika Waititi of all people in to direct the next one, deciding to play Ragnarok as an actual comedy instead of a blustery action movie with characters stood around doing forced tough guy banter. So long as they're capable of learning from their mistakes and willing to take a few risks (who saw Ant-Man doing as well as it did?), it'll be fine for a while yet.

[EDIT] and as Skyquake brought up Inhumans, that's another indicator: we're at the point where, if Disney lose confidence in a project, they can bump it to a tv audience (who will also ignore it) without risking damage to the overall brand.

Originally Posted by Tetsuro
Originally Posted by Hound
I really have no idea what a Chinese movie-goer wants from their movies.
Movies like Transformers apparently.
Or not.
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Old 2017-11-16, 05:13 PM   #6
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I suspect it's less a "superhero movie" problem and more a "Spider-Man movie problem". Sony's done a very good job of convincing people that there's no point in getting emotionally invested in Spidey films because they're just going to toss everything out as soon as they hit a bump in the road and start fresh. This is the sixth Spider-Man movie in the last fifteen years, and in that time the franchise has been rebooted three times with three different lead actors, all starting with different versions of the same basic "Peter Parker is a dork in high school" setting. At a certain point it becomes hard to care about yet another new take on the same character, because in five years (or however long it takes for Sony's deal with Disney to fall apart due to naked corporate greed) we're just going to get another new Spidey in another new continuity anyway.

I haven't seen Homecoming yet, and probably won't go out of my way to do so either. As neat as it is to have Spider-Man available for the Avengers movies, I simply don't care, at all, about the latest iteration of his solo movie franchise. And I'm a guy who owns a shelf full of Spidey-and-friends figures and grew up watching Spidey cartoons and (occasionally) reading Spidey comics, so it's not like I'm not a fan of the character. I've just got Spidey-reboot burnout.

Honestly, I'd be way more excited if they'd launched a movie series starring Myles or one of the hundred other alternate Spider-Men instead of yet another version of Peter.
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Old 2017-11-16, 10:24 PM   #7
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...that's a good point about the reboots. I like how the X-Men films have kept the original 3 films as cannon and something that happened (er, well except for X-Men 3...). I didn't mind the Spidey reboot after the awful Spidey 3, and quite enjoyed the two Garfield films, even if the second made the usual mistakes of too much going on and having ideas of building a franchise ahead of being, well, an actually good film. And killing off Gwen Stacey far too soon. Boo.

It does feel a bit much to have yet another reboot, but Homecoming seems to be a softer one in the same mould as the second Ghost Rider film (actually pretty decent, story-wise, just spoilt by Nicholas Cage), so hopefully it doesn't t rake over the same territory as the previous five films (!).

As for the other Spider-Men and Women? Erm, Jessica Drew would be good - although I can see her more in Agents Of SHIELD, I don't know Myles, Silk and all the others seem pretty forgettable, which leaves Spider-Gwen and Miguel O'Hara - which could be interesting. Although we're now so close to 2099, I don't think it'd be worth the effort and turn out like Quantum Leap's vision of 1999.
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Old 2017-11-17, 01:19 AM   #8
inflatable dalek
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Not seen it yet so may be complete bollocks, but: Homcoming feels a bit Batman Begins to me. In that it was well received and certainly was successful but equally wasn't Earth shattering box office (as fans of Superman Returns like to point out, Begins made less money than their mauled film).

And a lot of that likely had to do with the failings of the previous film, the feeling the origin has been done (I understand Homecoming isn't another origin story, but I think people are now conditioned to think New Actor=New Start) and it not being one of the Big Villains (at least to casuals for whom Spider-Man knowledge mainly comes from the Rami films).

And of course, the reputation of Begins improved even more in the few years between it and Dark Knight and the sequel sensibly threw THE Batman villain in and bingo, a success on a much larger scale.

It might be harder for Homecoming 2 to achieve that--no one seems to think the first was as much of a game changer as Begins was--but if they take the good faith they've regained and make Doctor Octopus the bad guy in a well promoted film it'll make a bigger splash.

And I think regardless of when the superhero bubble bursts (and I have more thoughts on that for later, but it's 1AM on my birthday and even this much posting about films is probably a bit sad) there will be those characters who still get films every now and then, and Spider-Man will be one of them.
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Old 2017-11-18, 06:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
And I think regardless of when the superhero bubble bursts (and I have more thoughts on that for later, but it's 1AM on my birthday and even this much posting about films is probably a bit sad) there will be those characters who still get films every now and then, and Spider-Man will be one of them.
At this point I'm not sure if the superhero bubble busts what that would mean since the time between when Batman & Robin "killed" the genre and when Blade 1 jump started it was about 1 year.

Since then Hollywood seems to have pretty much made and/or released at least 1 comic book and/or a superhero movie at least one a year since Blade 1 or that what it feels like anyway.

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Old 2017-11-19, 03:56 PM   #10
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I'm pretty sure Marvel's cinematic universe still has some legs in it, although it will be interesting to see what happens after phase 3 ends with Avengers 4. A lot of the main players will, by that point, be out of contract and/or a little old in the tooth to be playing superhero.
I suspect there is a lot of legal wrangling going on behind the scenes, with Marvel trying to get back the film rights to many of their characters. Fox seem to have killed off the Fantastic 4, so I could see a deal similar to Sony's Spider-man that brings them back into the Marvel fold. Also with Wolverine now out of the picture in Fox's X-men franchise could we see a New Avengers line up at some point? That would be a big win for Marvel studios, but begs the question who could fill Jackman's boots, as although physically nothing like the comic character, for many, he is now the definitive Logan?
It is interesting to see that DC have stated they are moving away from a shared universe now. Not surprising given the car crashes that were BvS and Suicide Squad I suppose.
A lot of studio's are jumping on the shared universe concept, but to date, only seems to be MCU that have made a success of it.
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Old 2017-11-23, 05:06 PM   #11
"I've done better and got over it."
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I too wonder when the bottom is going to fall out, but I saw Thor Ragnarok a week ago and found it highly enjoyable. I will say that I've only seen about a third of these MCU movies, so I can understand if other people that have been following this stuff more closely have gotten fatigued by it.
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Old 2017-12-30, 08:32 PM   #12
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I watched Homecoming last weekend and's a good little film. It does what the first two Raimi films did, but with way less angst and much more joy. There's a refresh of Spidey's supporting cast , who are all pretty likeable. Keaton is excellent as Toomes and a relateable bad guy. Bit annoying he ends up having direct ties to Parker's life -which is something the Spidey films really need to get away from. Best of all, whilst the film is all about that cornball 'with great power comes great responsibility' , it's not rubbed in your face and this is about Peter learning how Spidey operates in the age of Avengers. Its really good, and Holland is great... so why doesn't it feel like more of an event?

I re-read this thread and I came back to what Warcry was saying above - we've just had too many reboots.

Hopefully, with Disney buying up Fox, there's going to be more of a chance there'll be less of this nonsense in the future.
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Old 2018-01-01, 12:26 PM   #13
Shrapnel Clone
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All the old geezers will get off'ed in Infinity War, paving the way for the new generation. And the MCU will be poorer for it.

While I think Tom Holland did a remarkable job here, I think they'll have to continue casting A-list villains in order to keep things interesting. He's just not on the same level yet as Robert Downey Jr, Mark Ruffalo, or Chris Hemsworth (experience will do that for ya). If they can't surround the new kids with that kind of powerhouses, it might all end in a few more movies.

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