Galvatron and Soundwave had a thing??

Hawkeye · Post by **Hawkeye** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:31 pm

yes but I was using that as a reply to you backing her up as in viewing their doctrine in shades of grey as a feasible alternative to the republican party....not that they personally dont have "good" points but thats what we call "characterization" rather than proof that decepticons are kind and cuddly.

theres alot of differenc between bludgeons code of honor and oscar schindler. I Think you are getting confused with what we are debating here. First you were confused with the mad chick who thinks shes a decepticon sympathiser....comming out defending her painted you in a bad spot.....Now we know what you were saying but you should have explained yourself better than comming to the valiant rescue of a screwed up person.

Now back to your revised position you really arent arguing for the good points about the "decipticons" like you think you are rather pointing out the admirable traits of a few of them. theres alot of difference between razorclaw as an "individual" (gah fiction) and The army. We are saying that their is no redeeming good points about the DECIPTICONS just like there were no redeeming qualities in the NAZI party. But to beleive that every german who was a member was a cold blooded jew killer is proposterous....they are as individuals human beings and im sure there were a great many who did not agree with the official line but were powerless to do anything. but does that make the NAZI party as a collective organization a smidgen less evil?

I hate to bring in real life situations especially really serious ones but I need to beat you over the head with it. The Decepticons are an organization with an official party line and actions. we can relate to individual characters but any redeeming qualities they have dont really apply to "the decepticons" if you catch my drift.

I have officially written way to much on this topic.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:54 pm

Man, is this thread still going on?

I think it's peanut butter locking time, peanut butter locking time!

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:25 pm

Originally posted by Tetsuro
I think it's peanut butter locking time, peanut butter locking time!

Good thing you don't make the calls around here. "OMFG, this stupid fluff topic has somehow turned into an interesting topic! LOCK IT!!!"

tahukanuva · Post by **tahukanuva** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:28 pm

He's just upset because there's not a "proper debate" going on.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:25 pm

Proper debate?

Right, in You Only Live Twice (you know, the one where Connery cunningly disguises himself as a Japanese fellow by combing his hair forward), it takes him and Token Girl from before dawn 'til after dark to get all the way up that volcano, yeh? So how does Token Girl get all the way down, swim back to base and make it back to the crater rim with two billion ninjas in about three minutes?

Answer me that!

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:40 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
the bloody Horde (they were called that, right?

The Evil Horde, funnily enough. By themselves as well as the Masters...

I think Raksha's rather fun, or at least I'd prefer having a conversation with her than half of most message boards or newsgroups.

The Con worship angle just seems a little silly when those being worshipped have nothing but contempt for any humans...

Stock plot of most "hey, let's let the Old Ones / this guy with pointy horns / Barry Manilow into our universe" stories, though.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:53 pm

Originally posted by Denyer
The Evil Horde, funnily enough. By themselves as well as the Masters...

See, that's honest at least. I'm pretty sure Cy-Kill claims on at least one occasion his main motivation is evil...

Stock plot of most "hey, let's let the Old Ones / this guy with pointy horns / Barry Manilow into our universe" stories, though.

And we know how well that works out for them

Returning to topic, though (well, the topic as I've decided it), the big problem for any "pro-Con" theorem is it generally involves ignoring a chunk of just about any continuity, and a number of characters. One thing I've always found it hard to find any serious motivation for other than spite is the attack on Autobot City in TF:TM... they have control of Cybertron (taking out the orbital bases would be one thing), and probably the pick of the universe, why the need to go and slaughter a bunch of Autobots on Earth? You could also say the same about Klo, though it's not quite as simple. As a pure, abstract philosophy it can kinda work, but it struggles when applied to just about any significant body of official TF media (due to the general lack of Autobot aggression... in most continuities you often get the impression that if the Decepticons did go to some planet in the back-end of beyond and leave everyone alone, the Autobots would leave them be).

NB: +1 to Tahu

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:57 pm

Answer me that!

NINJAS! Bond was the one slowing everything up. Token Japanese Girl had skills, Bond had ninja-lite training.

(It's more ludicrous that no one noticed multiple rockets launching from a volcano in the first place - a rocket plume is visible for tens of miles away...)

Clogs · Post by **Clogs** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:35 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
One thing I've always found it hard to find any serious motivation for other than spite is the attack on Autobot City in TF:TM... they have control of Cybertron (taking out the orbital bases would be one thing), and probably the pick of the universe, why the need to go and slaughter a bunch of Autobots on Earth?

I go with spite. Even Starscream wonders why Megatron won't just bust up the Autobot bases on the Cybertron moons - remember, he practically accuses Megs of cowardice?

Hawkeye · Post by **Hawkeye** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:59 pm

Im glad Cliffy is taking most of the cartoon examples...I cant stomach arguing abstract ideologies in transformers let alone resorting to the cartoon. Im trying to stick to comic but gee wunners didnt read that did they?

Clogs · Post by **Clogs** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:34 pm

Originally posted by Hawkeye
Im glad Cliffy is taking most of the cartoon examples...I cant stomach arguing abstract ideologies in transformers let alone resorting to the cartoon. Im trying to stick to comic but gee wunners didnt read that did they?

Some of us did.

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:55 pm

Damn, Hawkeye, am I really supposed to take your arguments seriously when you have a post like that?

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:35 pm

Originally posted by Hawkeye
Im glad Cliffy is taking most of the cartoon examples...I cant stomach arguing abstract ideologies in transformers let alone resorting to the cartoon. Im trying to stick to comic but gee wunners didnt read that did they?

One day long ago I decided that Marvel Comics was a bit like a $20 whore who would let you pay down for your future fling $1 every month if you couldn't afford the $20 up front.

But the catch was that she never told you if you've paid enough.

That's when I stopped buying comic books.

I won't deny that I liked some of their ideas (what I call "corruption plagues" in my novel were based on scraplets for instance, or rather: scraplets would then be a very advanced form of corruption plague), but in the end less proved to be more.

At least where I'm concerned.

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:41 pm

Originally posted by Rurudyne
One day long ago I decided that Marvel Comics was a bit like a $20 whore who would let you pay down for your future fling $1 every month if you couldn't afford the $20 up front.

You were ripped off. We usually got at least a handjob every week/fortnight...

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:46 pm

Cliffy ... about the attack on Autobot City.

I never put it down to spite because the Decepticons are militaristic.

It may have been nothing more than finishing the job in the most memorable way where your enemy is concerned.

It was also probably the only plot Megatron hatched in G1 that wasn't lame (aside from those few respectable plots that were ruined by Starscream or some example of Perceptor's super science that the Autobots mysteriously never used again).

Actually, scratch that: Starscream ruined the plot in question, too.

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:54 pm

Originally posted by Denyer
You were ripped off. We usually got at least a handjob every week/fortnight...

I'm not sure about their British publishing house ... but even so, there were some Marvel stores I felt like I'd got ... well, you know.

Example: at least the Transformers had the legitimate excuse of being nearly ageless machines compared to other, less mechanical, characters.

Hawkeye · Post by **Hawkeye** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:19 am

Originally posted by TFVanguard
Damn, Hawkeye, am I really supposed to take your arguments seriously when you have a post like that?

I do those purposely when I have a string of long serious posts. I really dont like to debate too much about this kind of thing so I throw this kind of thing up as a smokescreen to change topics even if it means making me sound stupid/ignorant/arrogant etc.

i mean......batman.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:49 am

Originally posted by tahukanuva
He's just upset because there's not a "proper debate" going on.

**** you.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Oooh, flamey.

Originally posted by Rurudyne
It may have been nothing more than finishing the job in the most memorable way where your enemy is concerned.

It was also probably the only plot Megatron hatched in G1 that wasn't lame (aside from those few respectable plots that were ruined by Starscream or some example of Perceptor's super science that the Autobots mysteriously never used again).

There was an invasion force gathering on the ****ing moons, manned by the likes of Optimus Prime and the Dinobots. They knew this, because of Laserbeak seeing it. It's at the start of the film. I can break out screencaps if we're having trouble remembering these piffling details.

Militarilty speaking, that's what we call a threat, and leaving a threat lurking right over your territory while you nip out to **** over somewhere miles away is neither finishing the job, or a non-lame plan. If Soundwave had been a bit quicker taking down the radio tower (i.e. he had shot it, rather than dispatching his cute pets) it would have been Autobots on Cybertron. They even managed to stuff up "let's go kill them Autobots over there", which is the kind of strategy Neanderthal man (who, to be fair, was on average much smarter than Ron Friedman) could come up with, and is barely worthy of the word 'plan'.

Megatron's best plan hatched in G1 was returning to Cybertron and attempting to build a powerbase after killing the Triumvirate. Shame Furminator forgot about the continuity he'd been writing for for 5 years and then had to stuff it up, but still...

Rodimus_Prime's girl · Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:10 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
"OMFG, this stupid fluff topic has somehow turned into an interesting topic! LOCK IT!!!"

Yeah...please:laugh: