Have we reached the mountaintop?

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:46 pm

Are we, right now, living through the highest point the Transformers universe will ever reach? We've got a great animated show supported by an awesome toy line, an independent toy line with tons of homages to great characters from the past, and a second live action movie on the way with its own series of great toys. Five or six years from now, will we look back on 2007-2009 as the pinnacle, the time when it was the most awesome to be a fan of Transformers? Will we be looking back in 2013, wishing we had spent less time complaining about repaints and annoying human villains and more time appreciating that there's never been a better time to be a fan? Or, is Transformers a powerful enough franchise that we can expect more movies, TV shows, and great toys for years to come?

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:29 pm

As much as I love the 2007 movie, my TF love has usually come from the periphery. I love Transformers because of the Archive and memories from my old comics, and if it wasn't for joining this site I would never have fallen back into it.

Similarly I think some fanfiction has topped any 'proper' TF medium.

- James Roberts 'Eugenesis'
- The TF Archive
- Lexicon ('Best First' & 'The Andraxus Saga' particularly)
- The 1986 & 2007 movies

are my high points.

But I don't ever think of it as complaining, just discussing. I'm not fussed if this is the high point, I think I've enjoyed the quiet times in Transformers just as much.

For reference, what are the 'quiet times'?

1994-96 (post G2, pre-Beast Wars), and 2000-03 (post Beast Machines, pre Dreamwave)?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:31 pm

During Dreamwave was actually still fairly quiet... If you leaf back through the board, there actully wasn't that much discussion of the things at the time. There was more when the wheels came off IIRC...

On the topic, dunno, I'm not enjoying myself as much in regards to Transformers. The line might have not had such a high standing since 1985, if ever, but the movie was the last thing to interest me much. I've no real desire to see the Animated cartoon, while most of the toys (Animated and the rest) suffer from at least one serious design fault - Transformers fans just prefer to settle, compare and bitch rather than have something genuinely excellent. And the comics? Hah. IDW spent, what, three years building up to something which may or may not have happened (it's pretty difficult to tell), and then replaced it with a compilation fo Don Glut's greatest ideas.

Sort-of looking forward to the second film, but not as much as the first - there was a genuine amount of suspense as to what exactly it'd be like, whereas we more or less know the feel of the second one - it's just going to be what variations there are. One of the reasons I enjoyed the first one was because it was like nothing we'd ever had before.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:43 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Sort-of looking forward to the second film, but not as much as the first - there was a genuine amount of suspense as to what exactly it'd be like, whereas we more or less know the feel of the second one - it's just going to be what variations there are. One of the reasons I enjoyed the first one was because it was like nothing we'd ever had before.

Yeah, I needed a cloth each time I saw the trailer for the first one. The film was an explosion of fun. I hardly felt any of that upon seeing the trailer for ROTF. In that respect I hope that forces them to ramp up the script a notch. Everyone's seen big robots, morphing Terminators, rampaging T-Rex's and Cave trolls to death.

Give Prime and Co. a witty (but not toally off the wall), script because I don't think it's going to sell on pretty CGI this time around. And I was properly spoilt by the fun, light heartedness of the first film.

It's got a lot to live up to. Fingers crossed.

Blitzwing · Post by **Blitzwing** » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:55 pm

I think we need to enjoy it while it lasts.

Animated is an absolutely top notch show in comparison to other Tranformer shows of the past. And it has the great toys to back it up. Unfortunately it'll be finished this time next year.

The first movie was so much fun. Going to downtown Vancouver for the premiere has to be an all time favorite TF fandom moment for me. I don't think the second one will be able to compare to it. Also, it is highly likely that it won't make it past a third film.

Universe toys are also great, but we won't be getting them for much longer.

The comic situation is ok right now. Even though DW turned to shit, I remember still being excited about getting to the comic store every time a new issue was released. Now I just read them whenever I get around to them.

So yeah... it is great right now, but certain aspects can be improved, and some we won't ever get again.

another tf fan · Post by **another tf fan** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 11:07 pm

I think we certainly are in a second Transformers golden age.

When Alternators hit I really thought that was the best things could get. I still love them too, but everything from the G1 hommages in the Energon line to now has been a fangasm of extreme proportions.

lets recap the build up to this: (from the USA viewpoint)

Toys R Us releases Commemerative Series. Hasbro sees great potential in reviving the G1 style.

Rhino G1 Sets sell out.

Masterpiece Prime Comes to the US and is a huge smash.

Alternators give adult fans the toys they wish G1 was.

Rodimus, Tow-Line and Downshift from Energon show that Hasbro was listening to G1 fans and wanted to get them into the main lines.

Classics are brought in as a place holder and quickly become hard to find. Fans praise the updates and find the toys well made.

TRANSFORMERS sells 700 million in worldwide box office reciepts. Hasbo is dumbfounded by the popularity.

Classics comes back and mostly picks up where it left off.

Animated gives young and old alike a car based series that can go toe to toe with Beast Wars as a really great show.

Revenge of the Fallen will perform as good or better than TRANSFORMERS and the toyline will be enormous.

So to answer the question here, We seemed to have reached the mountaintop several times only to be givien a new high to love. 2003-2009 has been better for the brand thany anything. Really ever. True that without G1 none of this would have happened, but fro my point of view Transformers was dead by 1988. I mean DEAD too.

it's entirely possible that this is the true mountain top and the brand must slip into obscurity again, but I have a very good feeling that like Galvatron at the end of Rebirth, Transformers are NEVER REALLY OVER. They just go missing for a while.

Also, judging from my nephew's passion for the Transformer series he has grown up with (Cybertron, Classics, TRANSFORMERS and Animated.) He will grow out of it only to wax nostalgic for it and help bring Transformers back in time for his kids. I really think that. He loves Animated as much as I loved G1 when I was his age. Now look at how much money I give to Hasbro. That's something Hasbro will never let die. They have treated Transformers badly, but also well. When they have fans managing the property we all benefit.

The Mountaintop has not been reached yet, and a valley will come between now and then, but right now we are as high on this mountain as we can get. Good thing we can see the next mountain from way up here.

Rurudyne · Post by **Rurudyne** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:48 am

Mountaintop? No. No matter how down hill (slalom, actually) some of the shows seemed after Beast Wars I will only comment that we are at least on an upward slope at this time.

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:01 pm

I think we passed it after the design for Binalt Smokescreen (the first thing to really grab the fandom toywise, at least until they got it in hand and realised that complexity doesn't necessarily actually equal fun toys) and in terms of fiction with Eugen. Having said that, bits of Classics/Universe and Animated have produced fun results.

Dead Man Wade · Post by **Dead Man Wade** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:09 pm

another tf fan wrote:Revenge of the Fallen will perform as good or better than TRANSFORMERS and the toyline will be enormous.

Actually, sequels can only ever really expect to earn about 2/3 as much as the original.

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:18 pm

Any notable exceptions to that?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:23 pm

According to this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hi ... sing_films
- Lord of the Rings, Pirates of the Carribean, Shrek, Spider-Man (3 higher than 1), sort-of Star Wars (the sixth one is higher than the fifth), The Matrix, Ice Age and Madagascar all seem to have managed it [it being increasing gross for a sequel], and that's just from a quick scan... Billie Piper's Harry Potter's all over the place too, but I have no idea what order they were in.

Inflation difference between most of those must be negligible, surely?

EDIT: Too much Extras. Little magical kid with glasses.

Post by **Denyer** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:27 pm

Cheers. I think Transformers could conceivably do it. The dodgier plot may not help, but it's a highly recognisable action film keyed into a franchise that's generally considered a household name.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:23 pm

There're points either way... Depending on certificate, it might benefit from the success of Animated, from creating more nerds who'll go and watch it six times, plus Fox and LeBouef have had a good couple of years profile-wise (not sure if Meg's managed to fit much inbetween Hollyoaks, but she's a men's mag fixture anyway) and are arguably stars in their own right rather than "Those two out of Transformers".

On the other hand... there won't be much new for the casual movie-goer. The first one had big ****-off robots knocking the shit out of each other in a way that hadn't really been done by a Hollywood film with such a large budget - how many people are going to be interested in the same with slightly different robots? It's easy to forget wrapped up in the fandom that 90-plus percent of the people who saw the first film couldn't give a toss about Jetfire, combiners or much else. Oooh, there's a new guy called Jolt who turns into a car! Not a deal-breaker when we had guys who turned into cars in the first one... Transforming robots is a genuinely awesome idea, but then so was CGI dinosaurs and that went off the hot list fairly quickly in the end...

skywarp408 · Post by **skywarp408** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:11 pm

I think Transformers have peaked. It will be a slow down-hill ride after the second movie. I believe they will need to take a break after the third movie. Everything just seems to be watered down now. There's just to many merchandise and lines.

I think it would be good for franchise to die down for a while.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:20 am

Yeah, a common reaction I've seen to the trailer is people giving a slightly apathetic "Well, it's just more of the same really". The more varied locations (Transformers in France! Transformers in Egypt!) will probably give it a bigger sense of scale to more casual fans than introducing the Fallen or whatever.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:27 am

Cliffjumper wrote:On the other hand... there won't be much new for the casual movie-goer. The first one had big ****-off robots knocking the shit out of each other in a way that hadn't really been done by a Hollywood film with such a large budget - how many people are going to be interested in the same with slightly different robots? It's easy to forget wrapped up in the fandom that 90-plus percent of the people who saw the first film couldn't give a toss about Jetfire, combiners or much else. Oooh, there's a new guy called Jolt who turns into a car! Not a deal-breaker when we had guys who turned into cars in the first one... Transforming robots is a genuinely awesome idea, but then so was CGI dinosaurs and that went off the hot list fairly quickly in the end...

I think "shitloads more robots, plus some really ****ing huge robots, plus some of them that combine into an even bigger ****-off mahoosive robot" will grab at least the casuals.

T2 outstripped the original. But that's mostly because the first one was mostly a flop and grew a rep through word of mouth and the video rental industry. Or at least that's my understanding.

I think the sequel's got enough momentum and "bigger better" oomph going on to theoretically do better than the first one. Assuming the reviews aren't universally dreadful (the first one got a one-star Guardian review, but four from Empire... I think we know which the target demographic would pay more attention to). Bear in mind that a massive reason behind The Lost World not doing so well as JP is that it's ****ing dreadful (and has the double whammy of suffering phenomenal adaptation decay... I think I recognised a grand total of one scene)... word of mouth can sink a genre sequel easily. "Oh, it's the same as the first one but awful - go see Ice Age 3".

A third one probably flat-out wouldn't stand a chance though.

The Dark Knight, the Sommers Mummy Returns, X2 all reaped more than the first... I won't get into the Bond or Indy films. Toy Story 2's another one.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:15 pm

The difference for the Terminator films was also the difference between your lead being some Austrian body-builder and a proven box-office draw, though - he had about half-a-dozen tidy hits inbetween the two. I don't think the first one was a flop per se, more a modest success followed by big sleeper success, with the character entering pop culture shorthand somewhere inbetween.

As you say, though, it might be a draw this time that it's going to be relatively straight into the big robot fights this time around, and to be fair there's a lot of buzz for something that's still a couple of months from the cinema. Hasbro have generally done a good job keeping the brand visible since the first one.

I doubt a fair chunk of the key audience read many reviews - word of mouth is probably a much more likely source of evaluation. I'm fairly sure that most people who liked the first one will like the second. Bay might not be Sergio Leone, but he's not a moron, and won't fix what isn't broken.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:26 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Bay might not be Sergio Leone, but he's not a moron, and won't fix what isn't broken.

Mmm. He's made a tidy career out of knowing exactly what his audience want, and being able to deliver it. Alright, it may not be to everybody's taste, but he's damn good at what he does. And it may well have been marketing genius that the first one was "a Michael Bay alien invasion movie, which is based on an 80s toyline" rather than "a movie based on an 80s toyline"... talk about a built-in demographic.

Perhaps phrased badly earlier - meant Terminator was a flop in terms of cinema performance. It being a massive sleeper hit's indisputable.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:43 pm

Sorry... meant more that I always thought it did okay for a low-budget independant film even if it didn't set the world alight at the time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator ... #Reception - probably easier than the pair of us guessing away here...

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:03 pm

I suck.