Thirtieth Anniversary Countdown articles

Ryan F · Post by **Ryan F** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:33 pm

Knightdramon wrote:The Beast Mode article is an entertaining read, though if there's one thing I could change, it'd be removing Furman from the cartoon writers. The guy only wrote [or co-wrote] the final two episodes, two out of 50?

Just nitpicking

Hey, no worries - nitpicking is what Transformers fans do! And thanks for the interest, by the way!

With regards to your comment, I was basically making the point that Beast Wars did enjoy its fair share of dedicated writers, as opposed to the Sunbow G1 crew, where there was a LOT of hack-work going on (to tight deadlines, to be fair).

I wasn't listing the Beast Wars writers in order of how many episodes they did, or even importance... it was just a way of illustrating that some decent writers - people who cared - helped make the show become a hit.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:55 pm

Regarding the hack work, is there any information that expands on this? For example; a comment from Writer X who recalls how he was regularly given two-week deadlines per episode, with enforced requirements like... Powerglide and Seaspray must feature prominently in this episode, use the Constructicons in any constructive way you see fit, or include a strong human element for the next three episodes etc.

I'd love to know the constraints. And how it differed (if at all) between a Marvel Sunbow writer and someone working on Beast Wars, or Animated.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:20 pm

Donald F. Glut and his various interviews over the years put the hack viewpoint across, he's fairly cheerful about taking the money and running and having knocked out any old crap.

Considering most writers don't start off wanting to do what basically extended toy commercials I would say that, before the franchise became old enough for people who grew up on it to start working on it, those behind the scenes tended to fall into two categories:

Fresh faced young writers "Paying their dues" by doing the work they have to do before moving onto the work they want to do. Furman on the Marvel comics is a great example of this done right, he threw himself into it knowing a good job could see him move onto better things (probably remembering that just a couple of years before Alan Moore had been on Doctor Who and Star Wars).

The other, generally journeyman writers in it just for the cash. That doesn't mean the better ones don't do it to the best of their ability once they've agreed to take the gig (that's the life of a freelancer after all, even if you're doing it to pay the bills you still need to do a good enough job to keep working). It's just that, as all aspects of the entertainment industry struggle with meeting deadlines, there will always be a place for writers like Glutt who can be left to their own devices and will turn in a usable script on time even if it's not brilliant.

Ryan F · Post by **Ryan F** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:24 pm

Most of all though, it just shows in the writing of the two shows. Qualitatively, they're like chalk and cheese.

I realise that some of the difference basically boils down to the fact that, in the 80s, writers were neither required or expected to write brilliant epics. Look at other similar shows of the 80s, and it's all pretty much the same thing.

We can pass off the 80s scripts as hack work, but in their defence, that's just the way things were done back then. A few years ago I decided to have a little wallow in nostalgia and bought some Thundercats and MASK box sets; many of the episodes were downright rotten - the Sunbow G1 show, comparatively, was actually pretty good.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although we should go a little easy on Glut and his brethren, I really do think that Beast Wars, by comparison, blazed somewhat of a trail, story-wise.

So although both were products of their time, the writers had very different approaches. The 80s writers took what worked in other cartoons, and just went along with what was normal at the time - making good, solid kids' entertainment, just not pushing any boundaries.

The BW crew, on the other hand, seem to me to have thought outside the box somewhat, tried something a bit different to what kids were mostly used to.

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:34 pm

Yeah, a lot of people forget how good G1 was in comparison to what else was out at the time. This is also true of the writing, where we might cringe at quite a few episodes today, we have to remember that Batman: TAS hadn't premiered yet, and He-Man was the previous 'high bar' set for animated series. That fact that ANY of G1 holds up as well as it does (and it is still better than several of the series that followed) is a testament to some real skill behind that hackery.

Skyquake87 · Post by **Skyquake87** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:22 am

The other thing to remember with Beast Wars is that the Transformers brand was pretty much dead after Generation 2, so Mainframe were given a far freer hand then than they would probably get nowadays. I don't know that Beast Wars necessarily blazed a trail in terms of storytelling in Animation. Both Batman: The Animated Series (1992) and Reboot (1993) have a similar maturity to them. Even shows like Animaniacs and Tiny Toons had a smartness and a sass that earlier humour cartoons lacked.

I'm quite fascinated by the change in children's animation (and television generally) as the 1980s rolled into the 1990s. Suddenly you get some really good stuff like The New Adventures Of Mighty Mouse (helmed by John K whom would go onto develop Ren & Stimpy), Ox Tales and even decent live action stuff like Round The Twist. I wondered what precipitated such a sea change in how children's telly is viewed?

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:00 am

When did Saturday morning cartoons really hit their stride in America? The '60's? If so, by the time you get to thirty years later you got an entire generation raised on them who've grown on them and moved into TV. Chances are the shift in the early '90's was at least partially trying to make the same sort of shows they remembered through their six year old eyes rather than the reality.

Ryan F · Post by **Ryan F** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:31 pm

I actually think the UK were a bit further ahead of the game than their US counterparts. Shows such as The Magic Roundabout, Dangermouse and Henry's Cat all had sensibilities which we might now call 'modern'.

I caught an episode of Dangermouse the other day, and DM & Penfold were admiring a painting of the Houses of Parliament in an art gallery.

DM: Ah! A Canelletto!

Penfold: Oooh, yum! I love pasta!

DM: (sighs) No Penfold, that's cannelloni.

Quite a funny exchange, and I must admit it quite tickled me. But that probably went WAY over my head when I saw it as a six-year old.

Having seen a lot of old 80s kids' shows in the last few years, I have to say that one of the best US ones was The Visionaries - I found it very witty, and there was also just the slightest hint of story arcs and even some character development. It's a crying shame it lasted only 13 episodes.

I don't think the US TV landscape helped matters, either: what's the point of trying to tell a long, over-arching story when episodes get jiggled about, shown in random sequences, and often pre-empted by other shows - compare the transmission order of the G1 Sunbow cartoon to the broadcast order, for example.

Shows like The Simpsons and Star Trek TNG were specifically made to watched in any random order, because the production staff knew they couldn't trust the syndicators / network affiliates to show things in the correct sequence.

In the UK it's a bit of an alien concept that things can get switched around, but even as recently as a couple of years ago a season 1 episode of serialised US sci-fi show Fringe was held back and shown mid-season 2, which of course resulted in major confusion.

I can only assume that, at some point in the late-80s / early-90s, the US Networks got their collective asses in gear and started becoming more reliable, thereby allowing writers to carry a single storyline through multiple episodes without fear of a shuffle.

But that's just a theory, I don't live in the US so it might be that I'm talking complete rubbish!

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:21 pm

I think it's simpler than that. Hanna Barberra and it's 'government partners' had a stranglehold on televised cartoons in the United States up through the early 1980s. As more and more companies got sick of having to deal with them, they went to the syndication route where they had a freer hand. Even the networks got sick of them and ditched Saturday Morning cartoons for sports, which were more lucrative and far less hassle.

It's laughable now, but remember that shows like GI Joe and Transformers were 'too violent' for children and would have never aired on 'regular television' back in the day. (That's actually why He-Man went syndicated as well). Syndication allowed for Batman: TAS, where as the 'usual route' gave us 20 years of Superfriends.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:56 pm

Oh yes, Visionaries was seriously ahead of the curve, at least as far as toys shows went. A very smart series, and probably Sunbow's best.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:13 pm

Ryan F wrote:DM: Ah! A Canelletto!

Penfold: Oooh, yum! I love pasta!

DM: (sighs) No Penfold, that's cannelloni.

"Oooh! An alpenstock! Funny, I thought they went south for the winter"

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:27 pm

Of all the 80's cartoons my mother had to watch with us Dangermouse and Duckula were the only ones she didn't hate hate hate with a passion.

Knightdramon · Post by **Knightdramon** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:56 am

Recently watched TFTM 1986, followed by mostly random season 3 episodes.

I class the animated movie along Macross DYRL and other 80ies relatively high end films, at least in Animation, whilst I class season 3 as garbage.

Things went [in my opinion] downhill in S3 of BW as well. The fact that this time they were pressured to add upgraded toys to the cast almost randomly instead of all in one go, ala season 2, hurt things more than it should.

Moreover, BW being CGI thankfully put a lot of limitations on the cast numbers, which worked to our advantage at the time. Still, with the exception of S2, other seasons could probably be watched out of order [much like the G1 cartoon], besides the openings/endings.

BM, on the other hand, had to be watched in order.

We have to sadly, always bear in mind that these shows were made first and foremost to sell toys to children, which means a lot of what we as adults take for granted in shows, is non-essential.

Also, I have no clue which cartoons or TV series you guys are talking about at the moment, besides B:TAS

Skyquake87 · Post by **Skyquake87** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:16 pm

Would anyone mind if I had a stab at doing something around the European originated lines of 1992 - 1993 (the stuff that sort of lead to G2) ?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:33 pm

Skyquake87 wrote:Would anyone mind if I had a stab at doing something around the European originated lines of 1992 - 1993 (the stuff that sort of lead to G2) ?

YES

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:34 pm

No, obviously I'm just a massive cock, it's an area of Transformers that definitely needs more love and attention.

Can you believe that I'm still staff here?

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:51 pm

Skyquake87 wrote:Would anyone mind if I had a stab at doing something around the European originated lines of 1992 - 1993 (the stuff that sort of lead to G2) ?

That would be awesome sauce.

My plans also include on the strange and mysterious world the Japanese cartoons used to be (a totally valid article and not just an excuse to call it I Think I'm turning Japanese for the racist wanking gag lols. especially when coupled with "So Fortress Maximus has come himself") and a "30 things I want from the 30th anniversary" one.

With five up, three in the bag, and those two plus yours, that only leaves us one short of the 12 with two months to go.

I think...

Skyquake87 · Post by **Skyquake87** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:04 am

I will get to work then. Hasbro Europe's short lived burst of originated product is one of my favourite bits of all Transformersdom.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:00 am

The final result can either be PM'd to me or Denyer.

If you're a lovely person you can help Denyer put the final page together by doing the one thing I think I've managed to forget with Every Single One of mine when sending them on: Suggestions for pics to accompany it (or even the actual images themselves).

I think I've just used the phrase "Fortress Maximus cum face" more time than I ever thought I would.

Not as part of the write up, I just like to shout it at passing children.

Skyquake87 · Post by **Skyquake87** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:16 am

Very good.

Best get cracking then! Will rustle up some images too. I do have some picks from when I used to have all the toys, but they're a bit crap and out of focus or have spoooky shaky hand cam

Might have to crack out the naughty discs and see if there's owt on them i can use