Transformers: ReGeneration One

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inflatable dalek
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Post by inflatable dalek » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:06 pm

And has no one in the Marvel Universe really noticed Prime can be a moody brooding bugger before? Or is Hot Rod just supposed to be stupid?
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Post by Auntie Slag » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:28 pm

Ugh, I hate this alternate universe crap. TopSpin's alive, Rodimus is called Hot Rod (and seems to be a whiny Hot Rod at that). I have no desire to go back 20 years like this has.

Happy with RID and MTMTE. Sorry Mr. Furman, maybe if it had more 'Enemy Within' about it, but it ain't not nohow.

How much to bet they bring Nightbeat in too?

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Post by Red Dave Prime » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Yah, more emo prime!! Never get enough of that.

I'm much like auntie on this - MTMTE & RID are more than adequate at keeping the transformers fan in me happy, I dont feel any pull to this. Maybe it will pull together for a satisfying whole but thats what TPBs are for.

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Post by zigzagger » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:00 pm

"Spike's dead. I'm Circuit Smasher."



...

Spike's 90's retro-ironic schtick...Bit pathetic, isn't it? Was that Wildman's intention?

Overall, I'm just not feeling this. Like, at all.

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Post by Grayfox » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:01 pm

relak wrote:I do hope They give some closure to circuit breaker and the new knights
They can't/ Marvel owns them. At best they could go with "and there were some people fighting Unicron too, but we sent them back to Earth. The end."

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Post by Jaynz » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:24 pm

Yeah... I never liked Furman's take on Prime. Take all the things that made G1 Optimus the iconic character he is and throw it into the shitter. Then take all those things that make Rodimus unlikeable, and just dial it to 11!

Cripes.

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Post by Red Dave Prime » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Just read the full issue. Not sure I can really offer a valid opinion. It seems that it has a pacey enough plot. Not too short on the dialogue and there would appear to be plenty of different issues in the air. Art is a bit naff to be honest, but I never was a massive fan of this style. Not to be bad but I just find it hard to get fully invested.

But I'll leave it to the real Marvel fans to rate it / slate it.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:08 am

After the Preview I was expecting a really bad issue, those first few pages are fairly atrocious. Mainly thanks to "Circuit Smasher". A deeply stupid looking character badly written (is he barely a husk of a man just relying on instinct or the sort of person who gives lengthy flowery speeches using phrases like "Flotsam and jetsam"?).

Throughout the issue you've got him giving exposition that's supposed to be tragic and horrifying, but is constantly undercut whenever we cut back to his silly face. No one actually liked Circuit Breaker, no one wanted a bonkers homage.

Frankly, this portrayal of Spike would make even Mike Costa go "Whoa, that's a silly way to write Spike".

The rest of the issue though is better. Prime is written like a bad Furman parody (the idea he thinks no one has noticed Marvel Optimus is a thoughtful, introspective and often self doubting character even before it was turned up to 11 is like something out of a wacky sitcom), Blackrock is trying to give Spike a run for his money in the silly outfit stakes and Hot Rod seems to have a permanent expression of wondering if he left the gas on.

But... I liked the straight up acknowledgement that Megatron shouldn't have been able to do half the stuff he has done- plot foreshadowing instead of random stuff being pulled out of the arse.

And the couple of pages with Bludgeon were great, almost out of a totally different comic (well, they were, G2). And showed Wildman's best art on the book to date, whatever general apathy he may or may not have towards drawing giant robots it's clear old skull head still has a close place to his heart. I even like Stranglehold's post diet look.

And whilst I wasn't especially keen on the ripping off the "Come and get Jazz" Target: 2006 cliffhanger I did appreciate the Wreckers being smart and going "Well, it's a trap, we'll turn that to our advantage".

Other random thoughts/niggles:

I think Spike's would have worked better if his viewpoint had been switched with the other human survivors. As they'd never met any Autobots before and only know the robots as the destroyers of their world they should have been the ones baying for blood whilst he should have been the one going "No, these are like what I used to be, they're are only hope".

Especially considering his responsibility would be just as great as the Autobots as he seems to have given up guarding the Ark after a very short time (coming right after his "I am Fortress Maximus and I will defend this planet!" epiphany in his last appearance. Mind, he kept having those and forgetting about them so I suppose that's consistent if nothing else).

Equally, I don't buy the Wreckers being so reasonable and chatty when attacked (especially after poor old Rack'N'Ruin fell). More and more I think the book would be better if Kup had just been in charge of a group of Steelhaven survivors- if nothing else it would have avoided all the "Is it UK continuity or not eh?" confusion.

We keep getting told how amazing and important Hot Rod is without him actually having done anything of special note (either in the original US series or to date here). A bad case of relying on other media to inform the characters.

Speaking of which: Thunderwing. Bleugh. Makes no sense in context of the Marvel series, where no one had any interest in him or what happened to him after either of his deaths.

The Robot Buster suits would have been a nice background touch, but there's the worrying implication they're going to be a major part of Springer's plan. As well as Mecha never working very well in Transformers (hi Mike Costa!) it makes the human survivors look really stupid if they've had these suits hanging on the wall for twenty years and never thought to use them.

All in all, this has been a very strange book to date. Hard to out and out hate, but full of very strange creative decisions that seem to be working against what the book is trying to be. There's some potential here that could be turned around into something good, but it could just as easily go into a full on train wreck.

Either would be preferable to another 17 issues of "Hmmmm... meh it's OK I suppose". At least if it goes off the edge, it'll be comedy gold.
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Post by galvatronsbastardson » Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:29 pm

With all this Regeneration one guff, how does it affect the continuity of the Gen-2 comics? The Swarm and the Cybertronians, etc? Do I now have to disregard all I read in those? :wave:

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Post by relak » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:12 am

galvatronsbastardson wrote:With all this Regeneration one guff, how does it affect the continuity of the Gen-2 comics? The Swarm and the Cybertronians, etc? Do I now have to disregard all I read in those? :wave:
Technically yes. With the first issue it already throws g2 out the window

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Post by cybertronical » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:18 am

inflatable dalek wrote:After the Preview I was expecting a really bad issue, those first few pages are fairly atrocious. Mainly thanks to "Circuit Smasher". A deeply stupid looking character badly written (is he barely a husk of a man just relying on instinct or the sort of person who gives lengthy flowery speeches using phrases like "Flotsam and jetsam"?).
Or something less limited than your either/or viewpoint?
Throughout the issue you've got him giving exposition that's supposed to be tragic and horrifying, but is constantly undercut whenever we cut back to his silly face. No one actually liked Circuit Breaker, no one wanted a bonkers homage.
You seem to have confused what *you* think with what *everyone* thinks.
The rest of the issue though is better. Prime is written like a bad Furman parody (the idea he thinks no one has noticed Marvel Optimus is a thoughtful, introspective and often self doubting character even before it was turned up to 11 is like something out of a wacky sitcom), Blackrock is trying to give Spike a run for his money in the silly outfit stakes and Hot Rod seems to have a permanent expression of wondering if he left the gas on.
Wow, 8 words dedicated to something positive, shame you derailed it by being a bad fan parody.
We keep getting told how amazing and important Hot Rod is without him actually having done anything of special note (either in the original US series or to date here). A bad case of relying on other media to inform the characters.
Prime says ONCE in the issue that he senses greatness, not that Hot Rod has displayed greatness. Maybe, just maybe, the promise of this will be paid off? No, best to write it off now in as dismissive and as negative tone as possible.
Speaking of which: Thunderwing. Bleugh. Makes no sense in context of the Marvel series, where no one had any interest in him or what happened to him after either of his deaths.
No mention of an interest in him at all in any of the FIVE issues after he died? When the series had to be wrapped up hastily? Gasp!
The Robot Buster suits would have been a nice background touch, but there's the worrying implication they're going to be a major part of Springer's plan. As well as Mecha never working very well in Transformers (hi Mike Costa!) it makes the human survivors look really stupid if they've had these suits hanging on the wall for twenty years and never thought to use them.
I missed the image of the suits covered in 20 years of dust which you must have seen to garner the insight that they had never been used. Well done.

Honesty I've had some issues with the UK stuff being sidelined but I started picking up comics again because I heard of this and can enjoy this series for what it is: a continuation of Marvel US, and it does that admirably. I have niggles and bits which I don't catch at first, but seriously man you seem to be not just hating what's there but creating new things that aren't there to hate which to me seems sort of pointless.

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Post by Warcry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:44 pm

Rein in the personal jabs, cybertronical. You're welcome to disagree with dalek but there's no need to be insulting. Thanks. :)
Auntie Slag wrote:God Prime's a moany little sod in this.
TFVanguard wrote:Yeah... I never liked Furman's take on Prime.
A self-doubting Prime can be interesting, but I agree that Furman's taken it too far here. The implication is that (a) he's done nothing but doubt himself for the last twenty years and (b) the other Autobots have been perfectly happy to let him wallow in it. I'm also not sure why Prime is so messed up by this resurrection, when he'd previously died, been brought back, banished to un-space twice and probably a few other things that I'm forgetting. I don't get why this time is worse than all the others, and it seems like the only explanation for that is "because Prime needs to be like this for the story to work".

It had to happen like this to let things on Earth degenerate to the point where Furman could tell his real story, but it stretches plausibility past the breaking point for me.
inflatable dalek wrote:And the couple of pages with Bludgeon were great, almost out of a totally different comic (well, they were, G2). And showed Wildman's best art on the book to date, whatever general apathy he may or may not have towards drawing giant robots it's clear old skull head still has a close place to his heart. I even like Stranglehold's post diet look.
The organic look of Bludgeon's crew definitely play to Wildman's strengths. I don't think it's a coincidence that Andy's best art in the 80s came when he was drawing these characters, either.
inflatable dalek wrote:Especially considering his responsibility would be just as great as the Autobots as he seems to have given up guarding the Ark after a very short time (coming right after his "I am Fortress Maximus and I will defend this planet!" epiphany in his last appearance. Mind, he kept having those and forgetting about them so I suppose that's consistent if nothing else).
I'd say his share of the responsibility is much, much greater than the other Autobots'. He was the only Autobot on Earth, and the only Autobot who knew that the Ark had crashed there. He, personally, was responsible for dealing with the problem, either by getting in touch with the other Autobots and calling in backup or by finishing off the Decepticons and destroying the Ark to ensure they wouldn't pose a threat to humanity. He could have eliminated the threat forever in about fifteen minutes without even straining Fort Max's ridiculous arsenal, but he probably buggered off to go skiing instead.

Of course, Marvel Spike was always a self-righteous ass so trying to shift the blame onto someone who didn't even know there was a problem is entirely in character and believable. :)
inflatable dalek wrote:Either would be preferable to another 17 issues of "Hmmmm... meh it's OK I suppose". At least if it goes off the edge, it'll be comedy gold.
Yeah. Either great or terrible would be vastly preferable to forgettable.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:17 pm

cybertronical wrote:Or something less limited than your either/or viewpoint?
I love Furman, he's a huge influence on my love of reading in general and my interest in Transformers in particular. But he's not Patrick McGoohan. He's not even wearing a monkey mask with a Patrick McGoohan mask over it. He has yet to write any Transformers story where the characters- however well written- were in some way beyond my comprehension.

And before we start ascribing some sort of hidden depths or subtle meanings to Spike here... Lets just look at him for a second. And remember he now has the very silly name of Circuit Smasher. Does this seem likely to be someone who is working on multiple levels?


You seem to have confused what *you* think with what *everyone* thinks.
Well yes, that would be the case if everything I said is intended to be 100% literally true. Or even if it came across as if it was supposed to be taken 100% literally.


Wow, 8 words dedicated to something positive, shame you derailed it by being a bad fan parody.
Nope, I enjoyed all the stuff mentioned in what you quoted. The majority of it wasn't intentional and a lot of it was flawed, but it was very funny if nothing else.

And "Bad fan parody" is meaningless. It'd be just as easy to go "Hey, you're bad fan parody for mindlessly liking this bad comic just because it has the Transformers name on it", and just as much bullshit.


Prime says ONCE in the issue that he senses greatness, not that Hot Rod has displayed greatness. Maybe, just maybe, the promise of this will be paid off? No, best to write it off now in as dismissive and as negative tone as possible.
Once in this issue which is...what; the third time overall (including the FCBD)? Or on average about once a full issue? Show don't tell is the rule of all drama, this is just telling (there's an outside, wonderful chance Optimus is just nuts explaining all his odd behaviour so far. That'd be awesome).

And yes, it might pay off brilliantly. Equally it might pay off badly. There's a chance they'll be a free blow job off Kelly Brook thrown in with issue 90. Anything might happen, I don't have a crystal ball to look into the future. All I can comment on with each issue is what happens within it and how it reflects on already published stuff.


No mention of an interest in him at all in any of the FIVE issues after he died? When the series had to be wrapped up hastily? Gasp!
Thuderwing "Died" for the first (possibly only) time in issue 66. 14 issues before the end of the series and 9 issues before whatever it was that was controling him in #75 turned up. A 9 issue period where even having the EVIL Matrix around his neck didn't inspire anyone to look for his body (which fell right outside the Ark lest we forget).

I missed the image of the suits covered in 20 years of dust which you must have seen to garner the insight that they had never been used. Well done.
That does actually raise one good point about the colouring- It's completely at odds with the story. Everything is bright and cheerful and clean despite Wildman doing what he can to try and make it look battered. It winds up feeling like the human survivors are a bunch of OCD freaks spending all their time polishing and hoovering and- oh my, they'd have sorted out Megatron already if only they didn't have to touch every third rock on the way to the Ark.

So considering the Robo suits look as clean and bright and new as the destroyed-by-a-nuclear-bomb wreck of the Golden Gate Bridge did two issues ago what's to say they're not as decrepit and abandoned?
I have niggles and bits which I don't catch at first, but seriously man you seem to be not just hating what's there but creating new things that aren't there to hate which to me seems sort of pointless.
Well, if you could point to something new I've created in any of my posts on this issue I'd be more ready to argue that point. As far as I can see, everything I've mentioned actually happened in the comic, even if the relative merits are up for debate. If I were creating new things just to hate... That Kelly Brook thing would definitely be happening.


And I'd hate every second.

More seriously... people who really, really like this comic seem very defensive about it. In terms of comparison, I've been harsher on the last two issues of RID. But no one is jumping in there to pick apart my phraseology in an overly literal way or accuse me of making up stuff because of my anti-Barber agenda.

Or did I miss the memo with the list of comics and creators it's OK to have issues with and which ones are above reproach at all times?
Of course, Marvel Spike was always a self-righteous ass so trying to shift the blame onto someone who didn't even know there was a problem is entirely in character and believable.
Still, at least he's used the apocalypse as an excuse to finish collage. When he's not being silent full of rage man he's a hell of a lot more verbose than he used to be (and with a considerably enriched vocabulary as well).
TRANSFORMATION: ALL GOOD THINGS
END OF AN ERA IN MY LOOK AT AOE 5!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!

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Post by relak » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:25 am

I'm also not sure why Prime is so messed up by this resurrection, when he'd previously died, been brought back, banished to un-space twice and probably a few other things that I'm forgetting.
I believe it has something to do with the fact that this resurrection was not a "resurrection" per se like all the previous.
This Prime is Hi-Q.
He was remade from Hi-Q

Who knows how much of him is Hi-Q and how much is actually Optimus?

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Post by Denyer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:26 am

Plus the issue of just how much Prime was retained on Ethan Zachary's media -- although if we assume that keeping memory records is common enough, or that Prime has a bit of additional backup in the form of contact with the matrix, that's less of an issue.

But basically, the Autobots are deluding themselves and looking for a figurehead.

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Post by Red Dave Prime » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:14 pm

Prime was retained on Ethan Zachary's media
As an aside, I hated that plot point. I think it put me off the marvel series for a good while.

It gets work when you look back and realise that primes personality and memory is smaller than an i-store app.

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Post by Denyer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:26 pm

As I say, I don't think it's necessarily his memory on there, even setting aside that 'floppy disc' is probably a place holding signifier for top-of-the-range storage... there's already a precedent for personalities being stored on crystals, Prime can shift his mind into Roller, and we see matter-to-energy transportation in the space bridges and other ways... really, the thing that prevents Cybertronians from being immortal in every case must be some kind of cultural taboo about restoring from backups (and possibly about backing up in the first place, with all of the attendant security risks; a copy of a mind state in the wrong hands would be a great source of enemy intelligence, and any encryption would have to have a key somewhere.) Heisenberg has to be a factor; it's impossible to confirm that what you get next time is exactly the same... but a bit more acceptable when (as with a transporter) there's only one version of someone running around.

I dare say Prime's basic personality could be encoded as a few thousand bytes, picking from a menu of stock traits. Whilst it's a hostile action to reprogram someone, it happens fairly frequently in stories -- cerebro shells, Starscream with the matrix, Brawn goes nuts, etc. and the damage is reversible.

Squishies are even less comfortable with the concept of storing mind states, on average.

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Post by Cliffjumper » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:57 pm

I've said it before and I'll run it out one more time - I love Eugenesis saying that PM/AM Prime is basically a highly sophisticated clone because it takes out an era where the character really hasn't aged well. We've been inside Prime's head now and it's been largely unexciting, how about we go back to the Big Damn Hero version instead? I think this is why both Prime and the films appeal to me more than the comics; there's a sense that no-one writing the things is either willing or able to dial down the emo, instead just writing him out every six months or so. This isn't to say I'm against depth in characters, just that I've had my fill of self-doubting flake Optimus.

Of course, it basically comes down to it being too difficult to write a good leader... so much of Transformers fiction is driven by one or the other faction being led by a complete moron.

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Post by Auntie Slag » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:25 pm

Doubting Prime was good in the early days e.g. the 'Crisis of Command' story; he has a bit of a downer, listens to The Cure, then goes out and smacks a lot of people in the mouth because only in this way is he saving billions of lives.

Then he had more of an issue seeing what his pleb force got up to in the Target: 2006 arc. And the result of that was the opening pages of 'Prey'. How good were those opening panels? I loved that bit, where he's staring at all the TV's Elvis style, stunned by what's gone on. Then he sits down, contemplates a bit (without The Cure this time), and then gets on the phone and says dynamically: "Wheeljack, I want to speak to you, NOW".

Loved those scenes. That was Prime being a leader and Furman wrote it well. He can write a cool Prime, but this just seems like no steps forward, fifteen thousand steps back. I agree on a more kick-ass Prime, but also a more um... lucid Prime. There's no doubt, he knows what he wants from Sainsbury's, and he goes out there and he ****ing buys those goods from Sainsburys. Because he's Optimus Prime and he comes up with plans, and he uses Post-It's and he works out stuff.

You can't be airy-fairy in that position forever. Otherwise why not just repaint Huffer in Prime's colours and Prime can go to Bangor for a long holiday. Who would know the difference?

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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:45 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:I've said it before and I'll run it out one more time - I love Eugenesis saying that PM/AM Prime is basically a highly sophisticated clone because it takes out an era where the character really hasn't aged well.

And I've said it before but if we go with the books idea that there were two different Prime's (and it is odd that amongst all the fannishness the idea of the Prime being made out of HiQ is a third version is completely ignored even though it's more credible he'd be a gestalt of two minds) then the PM version is the one who should be getting all the praise.

Despite being more self doubting and troubled (arguably because of facing bigger crises) he succesfully dealt with at least three BIG species/planet threatening situations (Underbase, Unicron and the Swarm) whilst his predecessor generally didn't have any bigger threats than just the Decepticons or the odd bonkers human to deal with.

Relak's idea that Furman might be dealing with the HiQ thing is an interesting one that has some potential, but I don't think it's born out by the Buffy season 6 idea being presented here that he's all sad because he was pulled out of somewhere nice to be brought back to life (indeed, his description of his death as "peaceful" suggests he's no memory of being trapped in a Patrick Stewart lookalikes body being chased by monsters).
TRANSFORMATION: ALL GOOD THINGS
END OF AN ERA IN MY LOOK AT AOE 5!
PLUS: BUY THE BOOKS!

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