Religious TF overtones ?

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Xilef_Darklight
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Religious TF overtones ?

Post by Xilef_Darklight » Tue Dec 25, 2001 8:01 am

Sorry, you guys.. I just thought this little tidbit I wrote about Rebirth was worth creating a new topic with. Here goes again:

As far as I'm conscerned, REBIRTH is the BEST ending we could ever have hoped for TF G1... there is a nice sense of finality, without killing off the decepticons,... For instance, we come full circle,... the series started off with Cybertron almost totally drained of energy,... and we finish the series with it fully RECHARGED... and we know the decepticons won't really return, 'cause the leadership is going to be disputed between 2 foes of approx. the same strengh... The hive vs. the decepticons... Plus, (and sorry for going a little religious here) Vector Sigma is like the God of the transformers... this great ball of light that created them, that was the first... and he knows everything... he has planned everything... he knew the autobots would eventually merge with organics to become an even more powerfull life form. It makes sense... Unity is power. ALL BECOME ONE... hehe (and on a funnier note, Unicron is like the devil.. if one believes in such things,...hehe this great big transformer. Evil.. he consumes and destroys what Vector Sigma has created. He also knows many things, has slaves as he dominates and controls the lives of the robots he influences (or "modifies" in this case),.. and yes... he has horns ! ;:-) According to legend, the devil was God's most powerfull angel. Untill he "turned to the dark side" and was kicked out. (This was also used by Tolkien when he wrote The Lord of The Rings, or more precisely, The Silmarillion. Illuvatar - God - Created the Valar - angels - like Galadriel and Melkor. Melkor was the most powerfull of the Valar and he was evil so Illuvatar had him imprisoned). Now.. since Unicron is a transformer, I would presume he was also built by Vector Sigma.. and he planned on trying to take a shot at his creator in TFTM...

[This message has been edited by Xilef_Darklight (edited 12-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Xilef_Darklight (edited 12-26-2001).]

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Post by Blitzwing » Tue Dec 25, 2001 10:23 pm

That's a nice theory you got there, but unfortunately, Call of the Primatives showed us that Unicron was nothing but the handywork of the "genious monkey on steroids" Primacron.

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Post by Cliffjumper » Tue Dec 25, 2001 10:39 pm

hehehehe, the cartoon could be so stoopid...

If we're on religious [sp?] subtextezes [sp?] how can I let this topic go without mentioning the fact the Nelson Shin seems to think Op's Jesus in TF:TM? That makes Hot Rod Judas I think...

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Post by Redstreak » Tue Dec 25, 2001 10:59 pm

You may have something there, the points made before now all considered.

I still think that, despite how much I hated the Return of Optimus Prime, it was the best ending for the series. Don't get me wrong, Decepticon exile is good, and I used it for my fanfic as a way to cure Galvatron's madness outright, but the truce after TROOP was much more befitting of the series.

Dunno about some of the religious details you mentioned, though, as I don't have an extensive knowledge of Christian beliefs. *shrugs*

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Post by dai-atlas2000 » Wed Dec 26, 2001 12:22 am

I think sometimes that you've gotta take a step back from these conversations and think about it for a second.

Remember that this cartoon was essential created as a vessel for selling a toyline - the Movie especially - remember that unicron was an excuse to create a huge toy!

I think that trying to create religious aspects is do-able with many TV programs and films - take Star Wars for example...



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Post by Denyer » Wed Dec 26, 2001 12:32 am

Which TF:TM is a huge rip-off of, incidentally...

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Post by RID Scourge » Wed Dec 26, 2001 3:51 am

Actually, in both continuities, Unicron was not created by anything associated with Cybertron. In the cartoon, Primacon creates Unicron, and in the comic, Unicron is something like the god of evil, who was imprisoned in a metallic asteroid by Primus, a guardian of light, who was imprisoned, himself, in an asteroid. Unicron used his asteroid to make a new body, and Primus used his asteroid to create Cybertron.

As far as that comment about Hot Rod goes, it's horribly flawed. Judas betrayed Jesus out of greed. Hot Rod did not betray Prime. He tried to help, but his plan backfired with horrific results. I am sick of people implying that Hot Rod intentionally killed Prime.

With the ending of the series, I'd have to say the only ideal ending was the movie, where Galvatron was lost in space, and the decepticon ranks decimated. There could be no end until every decepticon circuit was crushed, and every decepticon program deleted. The decepticons would have returned after rebirth. One faction would have lost its leader, and would be forced to pledge allegiance to the other leader or be deactivated. After that, they would have returned to get revenge on their enemies.

This brings us to another question. Who would have won. Galvatron or Scorponok. Scorponok had the size advantage, but Galvatron's cannon mode was about the size of Scorponok's gun, so he probably could have killed him with a few blasts. Also, he could just blast open his armor (the nebulons did it easily enough), and snuck inside, killing Zarak, thus immobilizing Scorponok, which he could supply with a head that was loyal to him. Overall, I'd say that Galvatron would have won because he is insane, and not afraid of death,so he would fight to the bloody end.

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[This message has been edited by PaladinPrime (edited 12-25-2001).]

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Post by Sixswitch » Wed Dec 26, 2001 12:12 pm

Also, he could just blast open his armor (the nebulons did it easily enough), and snuck inside, killing Zarak, thus immobilizing Scorponok, which he could supply with a head that was loyal to him. Overall, I'd say that Galvatron would have won because he is insane, and not afraid of death,so he would fight to the bloody end.
This would be the way to do it. The question is, what kind of internal defences did Scorponok have? We saw those blue restraining beams in Rebirth, but that's about it. I think also it's probably realistic that Zarak would have put some of the Hive's machines inside it, for guard duty. But then again, the Headmaster autobots beat these up... Galvatron shouldn't have too much trouble.

Also keep in mind that if Galvatron was clever, Scorponok would have a hard time hitting him when he was outside the city/scorpion/robot or whatever.

I say Galvatron.


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Post by Starscreamsghost » Wed Dec 26, 2001 2:01 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper:
That makes Hot Rod Judas I think...
Certainly not, lad. Not by a longshot.

And Xilef, you make some interesting points about "Rebirth"...while I don't like it in general, I'll agree that it was a much more fitting end to the TF universe (for the moment) than say, "End of the Road" was for the comic run...

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Post by Quick Switch » Wed Dec 26, 2001 3:16 pm

I dismiss any religious overtones as accidental. (Or a bad attempt at allegory on the particular episode writer's part.)

I find the concept faintly absurd. Giant robots need religion? Eh? Automatons constructed for the sole purposes of work and war would find little use for it...

I'd much rather have Unicron as built by a mad simian then as a "god". That's one of the (minor) problems I have with S. Furman from reading some of the comics here at the Archive. He introduced mysticism where it had no place to be. (Again, this is just my take on it.)

I believe this is where the Beast Wars/Machines writers got liscence to structure a more "mystical" take on the canon. Everytime I saw Megatron quoting from the Book of Primus, I couldn't help bursting out laughing. On the opposite end, if Megatron is a "religious zealot" then Optimal is a comical rendition of an "Eastern mystic". I never thought it worked well as part of the plots. Just didn't. Same with G1.

So...in conclusion? Keep religion out of Transformers. It's better for everybody. At least for me, anyway. Image

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Post by dai-atlas2000 » Wed Dec 26, 2001 6:13 pm

"Intelligent robots who could THINK and FEEL inhabitated the cities..."

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Post by Xilef_Darklight » Wed Dec 26, 2001 10:12 pm

Let us look at the truth logically, people... In some cases, the TF G1 episodes were written by small time writers who were still trying to become better known in the industry... One of the best examples of this is J. Michael Straczynski who (I recently discovered) wrote a couple of the "Real" Ghostbusters episodes... That was how he got to be known in Hollywood and eventually became the creator of my favorite show of all time: Babylon 5. Here is my point... For those of you who are not familiar with the show, it uses sci-fi to discuss major philosophical & religious issues of today... A bit like Star Trek, but much better, in my opinion since it is not written as a "soap"... Anyway, most of the writers of the early-mid 80ies were born and raised within the judeo-christian religions, and that is were most of them got their ideas from, no matter that it was in the interest of getting kids to buy toys,... I mean, let us not forget George Lucas... The guy makes millions (err.. billions?) with his Star Wars franchise, and many of the stuff he puts in there comes straight from a religious book of some sort. One only needs to take a look at Episode I, the biggest turd of all time, yet filled with religious backstories...

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Post by Redstreak » Thu Dec 27, 2001 2:59 am

Originally posted by PaladinPrime:


As far as that comment about Hot Rod goes, it's horribly flawed. Judas betrayed Jesus out of greed. Hot Rod did not betray Prime. He tried to help, but his plan backfired with horrific results. I am sick of people implying that Hot Rod intentionally killed Prime.

Amen to that, brother.

R.

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Post by Reflector » Thu Dec 27, 2001 4:11 am

Originally posted by Starscreamsghost:
And Xilef, you make some interesting points about "Rebirth"...while I don't like it in general, I'll agree that it was a much more fitting end to the TF universe (for the moment) than say, "End of the Road" was for the comic run...

You know, I was just thinking that the other day. End of the Road (er... the second one) kind of left us at an odd moment. But if we count G2 as part of the comic continuity (which isn't fair in the purest sense, but anyway), issue 12 makes a fine ending. 'Least I think so.

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Post by RID Scourge » Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:00 am

Strangely enough, I took a myth class this semester, and when we were going over the key elements in mythology, I realized that transformers fit almost all of the requirements to be concidered a myth. Therefore transformers is a mythology.

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They were the dream--
--Mechanical beings able to transform
their bodies into vehicles, machinery
and weapons; a last line of defense
against the CHAOS-BRINGER,
UNICRON. Image

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"ON The Edge of Extinction!"

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Post by Denyer » Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:51 pm

Precisely... Transformers are a mythos, not a single canon.
Originally posted by Quick Switch:
I dismiss any religious overtones as accidental. (Or a bad attempt at allegory on the particular episode writer's part.)
I'd rather keep the religion in the kids' shows...

I liked Rebirth too... mainly because I'd read the comics, could already identify the characters, and thus wasn't too fussed by dozens of characters devoid of previous cartoon appearances suddenly showing up. It was quite cute, clean, and fitted the gentler cartoon continuity.

Basically for me, the Quintessons were daft goons. Primacron was an idiot. Whilst Furman is no Neil Gaiman, he tried to inject some depth, and was working with a run Budiansky had all-but killed.

I like a bit of a mixture; I consider Primus/Unicron as complex, powerful and misunderstood entities. Equally, the "slave race" concept has clear authorial mileage.

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Post by Xilef_Darklight » Thu Dec 27, 2001 11:39 pm

Originally posted by PaladinPrime:
I realized that transformers fit almost all of the requirements to be concidered a myth. Therefore transformers is a mythology.
Amen to that, bro,... ;:-) There is a WHOLE lot more out there than just Star Wars and Star Trek to serve as modern mythology... And Transformers is NO exception...

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Post by Auntie Slag » Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:01 am

Just a thought on the religeous aspect,

Am I right in remembering this? that, if at the next national census (here in the UK), if 10,000 of us were to write down 'Transformers' as a religeon on our census forms, then it would become an officially recognised religeon in the eyes of the law?

I heard something about this recently concerning the possibility of 'Jedi' becoming one too.

And now I'm off back to the Loyal Order of Schmidt Inverters.

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Post by Xilef_Darklight » Fri Dec 28, 2001 1:41 am

Originally posted by Windcharger:
(here in the UK), if 10,000 of us were to write down 'Transformers' as a religeon on our census forms, then it would become an officially recognised religeon in the eyes of the law
LOL !! boy would THAT be funny ! ;:-) I say we try just for the fun of it ! ;:-) hehe PRAISE VECTOR SIGMA !
BLESS OPTIMUS PRIME OUR SAVIOUR !
And now, faithfull brothers, let us share our daily energon... ;:-)
T'ill all are one !
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Post by sprites touch » Sat Dec 29, 2001 1:03 am

there is an asumption, not made by me, but that I agree with, that sentient beings have a built in mechanism that mekes them belive/be aware of a greater force then them selves, humens included.
there was the episode called "god gambit" were a race of humanoids belive in "gods from the sky" and when the TFs arrive there, the are presived as those gods.
the Cons take advantage of the situation, and pose as gods, while the 'bots try to refude the assumtion of them being gods, and Jazz says" we're just fancy machines" or something like that.
it seems that both factions are aware and understand religion( if on their own accord or through contact with other races), just have difrent views.
The cons are something of Heretic, aware of that greater force but unwilling to sucumb to it, while the autobots hold some vaues and belives reverantly.
We are never told in the cartoon exactly what do they belive in, but they are sentient and capable of religion, just not neccary arrived to a social stage were they'd need one.


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