The 3P article is up

[Warcry]

They've usually sold the likeness to other toy companies to use officially, though.

Yeah, I think this is the crux of it -- if Company A is paying them $100,000 to be able to make toys of their car, they have to sue Company B when they start making them without a license. If not, Company A is will stop paying them.

Pretty sure that they are; Superman's protected because of the S-shield design, for instance, rather than spandex and a cape. Logos enjoy far more protection than a character with a wide range of sculpts that turns into a t-rex. Avoid the symbols and names (and exact vehicle designs) and manufacturers have some protection. Retailers are more likely to get themselves into hot water through association and in more litigious countries.

I think that argument has some merit when you look at some third-party toys, but not all. Warbot Defender for example was just a pile of blocks that vaguely approximated Springer. The Hearts of Steel stuff? Assuming it's not based on official concept art, that'd be hard to sue over. But once they moved into making stuff like Scoria that is designed to perfectly match an animation model? That's a lot harder to dodge. Not a slam dunk, but not something that'll get laughed out of court, either.

The marketing is what really does them in, though. They sell their product through online Transformers retailers, including a great many sites that sell only Transformers, while advertising solely through Transformers fan sites to Transformers fans. That's something that (to my knowledge) has never happened on a large scale with, say, not-Superman or not-Mario toys. Third parties don't try to hide that they're trying to cash in on the Transformers brand, even to the point of posting on Transformers message boards about how they're trying to make their toys as faithful to the original Transformers designs as possible. If they'd aloofly ignored the fandom, sold their toys exclusively though their own sites and pretended like they had no idea what TF fans were talking about ("Megatron? Never heard of it.") they probably could have created a legal fiction to cover their asses. But if it ever came to a court case, it would be very hard to argue their way past the pretty blatant association with the Transformers brand that they've worked to create. What they've done is tantamount to admitting that they know they're using Hasbro's IP, which makes it almost impossible to argue that their designs just "happen" to be similar. Whether the likenesses are good or not, the intent to infringe is there and they basically admit to it.

Of course, "if it ever came to a court case" is the rub -- it never, ever will. Like you said, the retailers are really the only ones with their necks out here. It's way easier to lean on them than it is to sue 2,000 random guys in China. Even that's not likely to happen unless things get ridiculously out of hand...if Hasbro can't be bothered to sue people who openly bootleg their toys and sell them at retail, they're not going to fire up their legal team over this. And frankly, that's a good thing. Considering the horror stories you read of big companies shutting down fan sites or suing people for making kitbashes, Hasbro's laid-back approach earns them a fair bit of respect in my books.

Is that hate actually common, or are the hateful just more vocal than everyone else? I'd imagine most fans would be at worst ambivalent if not happy that additional toys are available.

Depends where you go. Some boards are filled with people who flame anyone who's anti-third-party, and others are full of people who attack you if you try to discuss the topic at all. It's a bit of an echo chamber effect, one assumes, as those boards attract like-minded people and grow even more extreme in their views, but there are definitely a lot of people with very strong opinions one way or another.

When you think of how much money a company can spend on branding and public relations to give themselves a good image, letting 3P companies slide might make financial sense. They're probably not losing too many sales to $50 deluxes. The meager sales they do lose can be considered a PR cost for the goodwill generated by not cracking down.

That's a big part of it. Also you have to take into account the costs of actually pressing legal action. They'd never recoup the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars that they'd have to spend to actually get third-party distribution shut down. As long as sales lost to third party toys cost them less than a lawsuit would, they're wise to keep ignoring it.

[Tantrum]

The marketing is what really does them in, though. They sell their product through online Transformers retailers, including a great many sites that sell only Transformers, while advertising solely through Transformers fan sites to Transformers fans.

That might actually count in the 3P companies' favor. Decisions on trademark infringment take into account the likelihood of confusion and the sophistication of the consumer*. By selling through the fandom, they ensure that those buying their products know they aren't getting an official Hasbro product. If you put 3P figures on the shelves at mass retail, you might get a non-hardcore-fan buying one, thinking it's a Hasbro product. I doubt anyone who cares enough about Transformers to frequent fan sites has made that mistake.

The actual legality is probably moot. If Hasbro sought to shut 3P down, they'd win via quantity of legalese, not quality. They don't even have to shut down manufacturing, just import. A few cease-and-desist letters to retailers would probably scare them off, and cost a lot less than hundreds of thousands.

Considering the horror stories you read of big companies shutting down fan sites or suing people for making kitbashes, Hasbro's laid-back approach earns them a fair bit of respect in my books.

The horror story I remember is Disney suing daycare centers for painting unauthorized Mickey Mouse murals on their walls. It sounds like if companies don't contest all uses of their trademark, they may lose it. If you let group A slide with your stuff, then group B can use A as precedent to use your stuff. That's what makes Hasbro's acceptance of 3P so surprising to me. They're not just allowing these small groups to use their character designs, they're setting a precedent for others.

*Here's the wikipedia link, or open Polaroid v Polarad and look for the word "proximity" for a list of what gets considered.

[inflatable dalek]

On the other hand, were any of the toys he designed previously actually any good? IIRC they were all Titaniums.

IIRC he was also involved in the original classics Jetfire (now there's a thought, both classics Jetfire take cues from a Bandai toy, effectively being based on a stylised character model based on that toy akin to Not Ironfist. Did Hastak have permission for that? Same would go for Whirl and Roadbuster presumably?) and had a hand in the original MP Prime. I seem to recall reading that ROTF Bludgeon was developed from something he pitched as well.

Considering he originally designed most of the characters as being able to work as toys (well, in theory, the titaniums somewhat disprove this claim) there was actually very little reason to actually involve him in the design process as he'd already done the main work, the remained could have been handled by a HasTak staffer. It certainly feels as if it could have been a sop to make up for not otherwise receiving any cash for them being turned into toys, sort of like the guy who created the Joker getting a meaningless producer credit on The Dark Knight to compensate for not getting any royalties off it.


In terms of confusion over contracts and rights (and it's interesting it's specifically Megatron he has a problem with, as the intended main guy on the Ongoing Bumblebee is almost certainly based on a design of his as well even if I'm not entirely sure if he ever got to use it in a comic), there might be a twofold problem.

The first being this occurring in the period when he Went Away from the book and before his brief return so he might actually have been "Off contract" when he agreed to let them use it, whilst the second is Andy Schmidt being such an incompetent idiot I wouldn't be totally surprised if he managed to screw up whatever the standard arrangement was without even trying.

[Warcry]

That might actually count in the 3P companies' favor. Decisions on trademark infringment take into account the likelihood of confusion and the sophistication of the consumer*. By selling through the fandom, they ensure that those buying their products know they aren't getting an official Hasbro product. If you put 3P figures on the shelves at mass retail, you might get a non-hardcore-fan buying one, thinking it's a Hasbro product. I doubt anyone who cares enough about Transformers to frequent fan sites has made that mistake.

I'm not sure that's applicable -- the case you're talking about seems to be one in which a company applied for a trademark and Polaroid took issue with it because their name was too similar. With what we're talking about, nobody is applying for anything. They're just going ahead and making whatever they want without any regard for whether or not it's legal. I don't know whether the same rules would apply in this case, or if there's a different set of standards for product infringement vs. opposing similar trademarks.

Assuming the rules are similar though, the "purchaser sophistication" point would definitely break in the third parties' favour. On the other hand...

Strength of the plaintiff's trademark

It's hard to argue against the strength of Hasbro's brand. Everyone knows what Transformers are, and they've done a good job keeping their characters in circulation through things like the IDW comics, Kreons and the Legends game.

Degree of similarity between the two marks at issue

Hasbro can produce official toys and Hasbro-commissioned art of their characters that predate and look exactly like the third-party toys, so they win this one.

Similarity of the goods and services at issue

Transforming robots are transforming robots in the eyes of the court, one assumes.

Evidence of actual confusion

Lots of fans certainly do call their toys by the official characters' names, and mix-and-match them on shelves with official toys...

Quality of the defendant's goods or services

Variable. Some are utter crap, while others rival or equal the quality of official products. It would really depend on who they were suing, though I'm not sure any third-party toy would meet Hasbro's rigorous child-safety standards since they're not designed for that to start with.

Whether the defendant's attempt to register the trademark was bona fide (in good faith).

They're not really registering anything, obviously, but again assuming that the same standards apply...their products are obviously meant to resemble Hasbro-owned characters, which probably doesn't count as "in good faith".

On balance Hasbro probably wins, but in practice I'd imagine the rules they'd have to prove were broken were different than the ones we're talking about.

The actual legality is probably moot. If Hasbro sought to shut 3P down, they'd win via quantity of legalese, not quality. They don't even have to shut down manufacturing, just import. A few cease-and-desist letters to retailers would probably scare them off, and cost a lot less than hundreds of thousands.

Yeah, this is what it comes down to. It would never come to trial because none of the parties involved would actually be willing to risk it. If Hasbro ever came down on the third-party scene, the products would simply disappear from all the big-name sites after they sent out a few letters. They could probably get it banned from eBay too, since eBay like to ban anything that big companies claim violates their IP.

You'd still be able to buy the stuff from sketchy Asian sites, one assumes, but it would be a really big hit to the producers wallets and I don't know how many of them would survive it. A few of the big names could probably weather the storm, but not many.

The horror story I remember is Disney suing daycare centers for painting unauthorized Mickey Mouse murals on their walls. It sounds like if companies don't contest all uses of their trademark, they may lose it. If you let group A slide with your stuff, then group B can use A as precedent to use your stuff. That's what makes Hasbro's acceptance of 3P so surprising to me. They're not just allowing these small groups to use their character designs, they're setting a precedent for others.

The really stupid thing in that case is that you don't need to sue. You just need to stop them from using your IP without a licence. Suing is certainly one way to accomplish that...but so is giving them permission for it. The article makes a weak excuse for why Disney couldn't (their other licencees would be mad!) but considering their rivals did exactly that, it doesn't seem to be a real issue. Meanwhile they ran up big lawyers' fees and gave themselves a PR black eye for no reason.

IIRC he was also involved in the original classics Jetfire (now there's a thought, both classics Jetfire take cues from a Bandai toy, effectively being based on a stylised character model based on that toy akin to Not Ironfist. Did Hastak have permission for that? Same would go for Whirl and Roadbuster presumably?) and had a hand in the original MP Prime. I seem to recall reading that ROTF Bludgeon was developed from something he pitched as well.

The toy's design was first featured on the solicited cover to IDW Stormbringer #1. Contrary to popular belief, it was not designed by Don Figueroa.

Not so much. IIRC, Don just saw the toy design before it was released and liked it so much that he used it in the comic. Re: Bludgeon, it sounds like Don did some concept art for an Energon or Cybertron Bludgeon. It sounds like the ROTF toy is similar to his original design but not the same (Don himself also evolved it in a different direction to become IDW Bludgeon), but who knows what they changed?

Can you honestly say that any of the Jetfires Hasbro has released since the first one look any more like a Macross Valkyrie than, say, Starscream or Windrazor do? Even the character model looks nothing like a Valkyrie. And since nobody but Hasbro have a claim on Jetfire-the-character, it would be really hard to argue IP infringement. I'd put it in the same category as Warbot Defender, personally...it might be meant to reference someone else's IP but it looks so little like the original that I doubt anyone would make the connection if they weren't already in the know. Whereas Scoria, Hexatron and Quakewave are blatantly Slag, Sixshot and Shockwave instead of just being sort of inspired by them.

I think most people still are, and are also buying more stuff legitimately because they actually become aware of stuff that way. Value and availability pay off more than trying unsuccessfully to lock stuff away.

I forgot to respond to this!

Some people do, but proportionately I think it's way less. A decade ago internet users had a much higher level of computer knowledge than they do now, since back then it was still a "nerd" thing and nowadays everyone uses it. Most of the people I know wouldn't even be able to tell you what a "torrent" was, let alone how to use it. A lot of other people only pirated for convenience and are happy to avoid the hassle and pay for stuff legitimately now that media companies are slowly starting to come around and sell their wares online (often without the same DRM headaches that you'd get in the early years), or in the case of the TF fandom in particular, have released the shows/comics we used to pirate on DVD and in TPBs.

There's obviously still a ton of piracy in Asia (where the "bite me, I'll download whatever I want" attitude I used to see so much here in the early 2000s is alive and well), and a lot of folks in the West do still pirate, but it's not quite the cultural phenomenon it once was, IMO.

[Dead Man Wade]

Lots of fans certainly do call their toys by the official characters' names, and mix-and-match them on shelves with official toys...

That's not indicative of confusion. Everyone involved knows the score, and is making an informed decision to buy the third-party toy. If they were on the shelf at Wal-mart, it'd be a bit murkier; the fact that they're carried exclusively through specialty websites is probably going to work in their favor.

Confusion tends to indicate more that someone might buy the defendant's toy instead of the plaintiff's because they don't know any better.

[inflatable dalek]

Not so much. IIRC, Don just saw the toy design before it was released and liked it so much that he used it in the comic. Re: Bludgeon, it sounds like Don did some concept art for an Energon or Cybertron Bludgeon. It sounds like the ROTF toy is similar to his original design but not the same (Don himself also evolved it in a different direction to become IDW Bludgeon), but who knows what they changed?

Interesting then that his reaction to the Classics Jetfire borrowing from his War Within design (the toy kibble as add ons to the animation model) was "Cool, put it in a comic" rather than "THIEVES!", suggesting there is actually some genuine reason he thinks the Megatron situation is different (even if it is ego driven).

Can you honestly say that any of the Jetfires Hasbro has released since the first one look any more like a Macross Valkyrie than, say, Starscream or Windrazor do?

Haven't had a close look at the new one yet, but the original classics Jetfire on my shelf in his hat and backpack is blatantly a shrunk down cutified version of the look of the original toy.

Sans accessories it's not as strong, but the extra bits and bobs are clearly designed to make him look like the old boy.

Mind, it's not impossible Hasbro actually got permission for the resemblance. Or even that it was still covered by the terms of the original deal they made in the '80's, there's a surprisingly long history of that sort of thing thanks to people not bothering to include an expiration date on the assumption these things will just peter out naturally. It's the sort of thing that allowed the Daleks and Triffids to be in Looney Tunes Back In Action because of film contracts that were signed in the '60's (and the Terry Nation estate huffing and puffing about the Daleks only to be told there was nothing they could do about it was glorious. Shame the fuss makes it unlikely Warners will take advantage of their rights to use the Peter Cushing Daleks in perpetuity by sticking them in the background of every film they make).

[Warcry]

Confusion tends to indicate more that someone might buy the defendant's toy instead of the plaintiff's because they don't know any better.

Well obviously they don't know any better, they keep calling this other company's toy "Shockwave" and taking pictures of him with Hasbro product!

I know that's unreasonable, but it's exactly the sort of argument that IP lawyers are paid to make.

Haven't had a close look at the new one yet, but the original classics Jetfire on my shelf in his hat and backpack is blatantly a shrunk down cutified version of the look of the original toy.

Eh. I don't think it's anywhere near as close as you're suggesting. Aside from the colour scheme and the rocket boosters in jet mode, the two toys don't share many distinctive features. Maybe the antenna guns too? But the proportions are completely different, they have totally different heads (Classics Jetfire's mask looks as much like Optimus Prime's head as it does the sleek, nigh-featureless Valkyrie), and one of them has butterfly wings and huge-ass flip-down cannons. I mean, look at Tread Bolt or Dreadwind. Done up in a different colour scheme the toy looks absolutely nothing like a Valkyrie (In fact, IMO it's got more in common with Armada Jetfire). Which is what I was saying about some of the 3P designs before. Paint up Defender in blue and purple and the only people who'll look at it and think "Springer" are people who know about the original. Paint Scoria those colours and people will ask "Was Slag those colours in G2?", because it looks exactly like Slag.

Mind, it's not impossible Hasbro actually got permission for the resemblance. Or even that it was still covered by the terms of the original deal they made in the '80's, there's a surprisingly long history of that sort of thing thanks to people not bothering to include an expiration date on the assumption these things will just peter out naturally.

I'm pretty sure they didn't at the time they designed any of this stuff. Last year Hasbro got sued by Harmony Gold (the company that has the rights to Macross stuff in the US) for releasing a TF/G.I. Joe SDCC exclusive that looked a lot closer to the original model than Classics Jetfire was (this thing here). They wound up settling, so presumably there's an understanding there now.

Anyway, considering that toy provoked a lawsuit from a notoriously litigious company but Classics Jetfire did not, I think it's safe to assume that the line for copyright infringement is somewhere between the two.

[Red Dave Prime]

I knows something warcry doesn't...

*not technically true but ssssh! I was sworn to secrecy.

[inflatable dalek]

Eh. I don't think it's anywhere near as close as you're suggesting. Aside from the colour scheme and the rocket boosters in jet mode, the two toys don't share many distinctive features. Maybe the antenna guns too? But the proportions are completely different, they have totally different heads (Classics Jetfire's mask looks as much like Optimus Prime's head as it does the sleek, nigh-featureless Valkyrie), and one of them has butterfly wings and huge-ass flip-down cannons. I mean, look at Tread Bolt or Dreadwind. Done up in a different colour scheme the toy looks absolutely nothing like a Valkyrie (In fact, IMO it's got more in common with Armada Jetfire).

Let me present as exhibit A, my non award winning photogography of the original Jetfire (as owned by Cliffjumper before me. Best not ask why he struggles with fisting as a result) and the original classics version [with me trying to pose both in as close to the same position as possible]:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 3a3a6bf46b

As the one on the right is clearly a squatter and more rounded version of the one on the left, the head being squatter and more rounded wouldn't be much of an argument.

[though Cliffy may make his argument at this point that Prime's head is ripped off from the Ideon]

I'm not saying that any such resulting lawsuit would have been fair, but there'd have been enough for Bandai (and their subsidiaries) to make a case if they'd presented in the right way.

Subsequent repaints of the toy are slightly unfairly presented because if the owners of the original design had objected at the time the following versions wouldn't have happened.

In terms of the subsequent actual lawsuit, it could be as a result of something as mundane as Harmony Gold only just noticing their copyright has been infringed upon (rather like how David Gerrold got away with recycling his rejected Trek novel ideas into the Star Wolf series simply because Paramount never spotted them), or whatever deal made the original Classics Jetfire possible had expired by that point (certainly it's hard to see them risking the new Jetfire unless any issues have now been sorted out).


Red Dave Prime (and anyone else here who is a friend of mine on Facebook) knows a secret about this post, but shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh don't tell the non facebook Warcry (who will have also recently missed out on me revealing I had a dream where he, Hound, Sades and a Fat Teenager came to stay with me in the childhood home I no longer live in). You could utterly destroy every point I've tried to make in this post.

So as a distraction technique, here's a photo of my cat deciding the original jetfire is clearly the best and the Classics version MUST DIE:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... 8587183b82

[inflatable dalek]

I knows something warcry doesn't...

*not technically true but ssssh! I was sworn to secrecy.

This winding up being posted before my comment setting it up is absolutely brilliant.

[inflatable dalek]

Though I'm not sure what you mean by "Technically" there. It's not as if I've provided links by which anyone not on Facebook can view the pictures and my comments!

Oh.

[Red Dave Prime]

Oh dalex. The tin is open and the worms are "technically" everywhere.

[inflatable dalek]

Oh dalex. The tin is open and the worms are "technically" everywhere.

I can ban you.

SPOILER! (select to read)

Right fellow mods? Hello?

[Red Dave Prime]

(did mean to post this earlier but hey, life etc.)

[Cliffjumper]

Regarding Harmony Gold and the Jetfire/Valkyrie thing, with the disclaimer that I forget how much of this is backed up by fact and how much is speculation...

IIRC Bandai cut Hasbro a very lenient deal with the Takatoku moulds, providing they kept it to the Western market, where at the time Bandai had very few ambitions and were happy to license whatever to whoever (which is how Gobots came about). Hasbro wanted the line's media to have the potential to go more worldwide without copyright problems, hence the Skyfire fat kid with a backpack thing so the show could be screened in Japan, China etc., but they were obviously happy to have the toys onboard. For the other Takatoku moulds (Deluxe whatevers) one of the main reasons they're not in much is they were basically stop-gap toys, the contemporary equivalent of throwing out UT recolours in Movie packaging.

Harmony Gold would definitely have known about Jetfire as, infamously, Hasbro's Western rights for the kanzen henkei Valkyrie meant the figure couldn't be used for the Robotech line, which was a blow for them as it was the only thing anyone wanted; IIRC they could only used the superdeformed ones (after Select's rights lapsed maybe, though Select were as dodgy as **** what with their mini-Deluxe Vehicles and mini-Deluxe Insecticons... though 1980s licensing seems to have leaned towards physical moulds rather than more ephemeral stuff such as likenesses which is probably why things like red Countaches pop up everywhere) and also created a non-transforming jet mode version for their line of 3.75" figures - which might be why they kicked off about the Joe exclusive as they did have the rights to a 'playset' version.

[Dead Man Wade]

Well obviously they don't know any better, they keep calling this other company's toy "Shockwave" and taking pictures of him with Hasbro product!

I know that's unreasonable, but it's exactly the sort of argument that IP lawyers are paid to make.

But they wouldn't, because it wouldn't hold up under even the lightest scrutiny.

Despite what crime dramas and procedurals would have you believe, most lawyers worth their salt (which they'd need to be to be hired by Hasbro) don't treat litigation with a spray and pray attitude, throwing everything they can against the wall and seeing what sticks. They pick the strategy most likely to win, and put their time and effort into that.

[Warcry]

I can ban you.

Ah, but then you'd be abusing your mod powers and I'd have to ban you!

Though I'm not sure what you mean by "Technically" there. It's not as if I've provided links by which anyone not on Facebook can view the pictures and my comments!

Oh.

In that case, you'll be happy to know that the links you posted don't actually work when I click them. I'm forced to assume that there was never anything there to start with, and that whole series of posts was an elaborate smokescreen to hide the fact that you've secretly been convinced by my unassailable logic.

Harmony Gold would definitely have known about Jetfire as, infamously, Hasbro's Western rights for the kanzen henkei Valkyrie meant the figure couldn't be used for the Robotech line, which was a blow for them as it was the only thing anyone wanted; IIRC they could only used the superdeformed ones (after Select's rights lapsed maybe, though Select were as dodgy as **** what with their mini-Deluxe Vehicles and mini-Deluxe Insecticons... though 1980s licensing seems to have leaned towards physical moulds rather than more ephemeral stuff such as likenesses which is probably why things like red Countaches pop up everywhere) and also created a non-transforming jet mode version for their line of 3.75" figures - which might be why they kicked off about the Joe exclusive as they did have the rights to a 'playset' version.

Interesting! I didn't know that Harmony Gold had put out a 3.75" line but that does make sense -- an argument could be made that the G.I. Joe vehicle is exactly the same thing.

But they wouldn't, because it wouldn't hold up under even the lightest scrutiny.

Wouldn't it? You're looking at it from a fan's perspective, and for us, sure, it's a bit ridiculous. We know perfectly well who makes what, and can make an informed decision based on that. But are we what matters when you discuss market confusion, or do we also have to take into account the effect on any casual buyers who might stumble across the things online (and who, in all likelihood, would assume that they are official until someone tells them otherwise)? The way the stuff is sold and advertised alongside official stuff, it would be easy for casual buyers to be confused. The fact that the fandom treats the stuff as representations of Hasbro characters would only deepen that confusion. I mean, my wife knows a fair bit about Transformers via osmosis and occasionally buys stuff for me, but if I showed her Hexatron or something she'd have no clue it wasn't official.

Personally, I think this line of reasoning falls apart because no matter how confused a casual buyer might be, the super-high prices probably preclude them from actually buying the stuff even if they think it's the real thing. If a lot of people are confused by a product but the ones actually buying it aren't, does the confusion actually matter? Looking at it as a fan I'd say it doesn't. But legally, it could be a bit more dicey. Would you have to prove that everyone who buys the 3P stuff does so with full understanding of what it is in order to use that as a defence?

At the very least, I think you could make a legitimate argument out of it.

[inflatable dalek]

Ah, but then you'd be abusing your mod powers and I'd have to ban you!

Not if I ban you first!

*Click*

There, that's done. Nothing can possssssssssibly go wrong.

In that case, you'll be happy to know that the links you posted don't actually work when I click them. I'm forced to assume that there was never anything there to start with, and that whole series of posts was an elaborate smokescreen to hide the fact that you've secretly been convinced by my unassailable logic.

Odd, those links claim to be visible by non-Facebookers. I can only assume Facebook hates you.

It's probably also worth remembering that Takara wouldn't have been any keener than Bandai for Jetfire to be a prominent presence in the series, that's as likely to have had an impact on the mucking about with him for the cartoon as anything else (I will bet Takara were one of the two* main reasons there was never a proper He-Man/She-Ra style TV crossover between the Joes and Transformers and what we did get was very very coy. They wouldn't have wanted a TV show they were half invested in to promote toys they had no part in).




*The other being the cartoon being made with an eye on worldwide sales and the slow role out for A Real American Hero outside America. Notably the "Old Snake" episode (plus the brief appearance by "Faireborn's father") happened in 1986 when attempts would have been on the table- if not well underway at the time they made the episode- to bring the Joes to places like Europe where the franchise had not been presented in a unified way before.

[Cliffjumper]

Interesting! I didn't know that Harmony Gold had put out a 3.75" line but that does make sense -- an argument could be made that the G.I. Joe vehicle is exactly the same thing.

http://www.toyarchive.com/Robotech/st4/vehver.html is the jet playset; poke around the rest of the site for the obvious omission (and in most forms, too). Whereas at the same time you had Zark and Zardak out at the same time as Jetfire... Eighties, you so silly.

[Cliffjumper]

(I will bet Takara were one of the two* main reasons there was never a proper He-Man/She-Ra style TV crossover between the Joes and Transformers and what we did get was very very coy. They wouldn't have wanted a TV show they were half invested in to promote toys they had no part in).

Takara put out Joe figures in Japan (the opening paragraph says Hasbro but it's contradicted on most of the individual pages and their little retarded logo is clearly visible in the pictures). It just didn't take off.