Jackson Not Guilty

Chat about stuff other than Transformers.
User avatar
Brave Maximus
Posts: 5877
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:50 pm
Location: Gehenna

Post by Brave Maximus » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:11 pm

Oh, my lack of faith is very disturbing - but hey, I'm from Ontario - have you seen what they've done to the Healthcare here?

What would help the Canadian Healthcare system would be to put money where it would help. The Billion dollars that went into the Gun registery (which, by the way, there have been no crimes commited with registared guns..... take that as you will) - would have helped health care (or removed the personal debt of every Canadian.....) not to mention the 25million a year that it now has as a budget. How about the 235million for the ad scandle and the 90 million the inquiery cost to find out who stole it (not that anyone's going to jail or their assets seized or....) How about the 100K a year that each member of the senate makes (Cut that in half and the 400K a year would pay for an additional 3 Doctors - at least, for what Canada pays them). Lets not talk about the budget our Governor General has....

Wait, what about the fact that there a quallified doctors from places like the UK, USA, Australia and Japan, who cannot practice in Canada because it can take up to 6 years for them to get licenced (And yes folks, that's only 2 years shorter than it would take to get your PhD from UofT.....). How about the fact that they have decreased funding and schollarships for medical programs to the point where the average citizen CANNOT afford to become a doctor, not to mention that even if they had the grade, money and desire to become one, there may not be a seat in the program for them to join. Let alone what they're doing to the nursing programs in this country......

What I'm saying it - the government could, with only minimal effort, vastly improve this country's health care system (yes, the first step would be to take it out of the provincial hands and make it a country wide program) - with out resorting to the 2 teir system. All this will do is divide the classes more, and is an easy way out for the government. You say the government will save money on this - but do you think any of that money will go back into health care? Lets ask Ontario's premier how that one works. He just got 5 billion, and well, he just upped our taxes, again......

Wow, I really am in a bad mood today... Sorry about the rant.

User avatar
Denyer
Posts: 32326
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2000 4:00 am
Custom Title: Shooty Dog Thing
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by Denyer » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:24 pm

Originally posted by Bombshell
They suspected they that he did molest those kids, but that the evidence presented to them didn't prove it?
Yes. In societies outside of Cardassia, suspicion isn't the same thing as proof.

User avatar
Hound
Posts: 9660
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2000 4:00 am
Location: Henshin!

Post by Hound » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:29 pm

Originally posted by Bombshell
Oh. this is f*cking rich.

So let me see if I understand this. They suspected they that he did molest those kids, but that the evidence presented to them didn't prove it?

That's bull.

And to to throw an even stupider equation into it all, they were influenced by the loony mother. That alone speaks volumes about how much Jackson was able to get off. I mean, how the hell do they know that Jackson didn't bribe her to act that way. Of course they wouldn't believe her if she acted like a headcase?

I mean, would you?

You do realize that in America the defendent is innocent until proven guilty?

Do you realize how wrong it would be to convict someone when there isn't sufficient evidence to warrant it?
Image
1921\4\6-2010\1\21 Goodbye Grandma, I love you

User avatar
Chromia
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Gallifrey

Post by Chromia » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:24 pm

Originally posted by Bombshell

So let me see if I understand this. They suspected they that he did molest those kids, but that the evidence presented to them didn't prove it?



I dunno, Bombshell....

Why did they suspect it? Why do you? Because of what "everyone" knows? Because of what they personally saw him do? Or because of what the media has thrown up in our faces for the past few years?

I admit that my judjment was colored by all the stuff I've heard over the years, but, thats not a reason to convict someone.

Maybe he was 100% guilty.

Maybe not. I honestly don't know.

Yes, he is one of the weirdest freaks I've ever seen, but that does not mean that he's guilty.

And if he is, then a great injustice has been done.

But if he was convicted, and he wasn't guilty.....

User avatar
Bombshell
Posts: 7516
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:00 am
Location: ...especially when he was kicking Spike's ass. ;)
Contact:

Post by Bombshell » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:08 pm

Originally posted by Denyer
Yes. In societies outside of Cardassia, suspicion isn't the same thing as proof.


Well, fine. As much as I'd rather not like to, I can believe that. But it was proven that he gave alcohol to minors, which IS a crime. Makes me wonder whether or not there was a bit of selective attention going on.
Originally posted by Hound
You do realize that in America the defendent is innocent until proven guilty?


Really? Since when?
Originally posted by Hound
Do you realize how wrong it would be to convict someone when there isn't sufficient evidence to warrant it?
Yeah. I do.

One problem, though. The Patriot Act, last I heard, was written in order to make doing that 100% legal. OK, so MJ's not as dangerous as your average terrorist, but there's gotta be a way to find a loophole around that.

User avatar
Chromia
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Gallifrey

Post by Chromia » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13 pm

Originally posted by Bombshell
Well, fine. As much as I'd rather not like to, I can believe that. But it was proven that he gave alcohol to minors, which IS a crime. Makes me wonder whether or not there was a bit of selective attention going on.





Now, I do agree with that.


I think I read where MJ had admitted to it, but I'm not sure.

User avatar
Sir Auros
Posts: 12980
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 4:00 am
Location: Virginia, USA
Contact:

Post by Sir Auros » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:34 pm

I already covered the alcohol issue.

User avatar
Clay
Posts: 6952
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 2:19 am
Location: Murray, KY

Post by Clay » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:57 pm

Guilty or not, that video someone posted with Triumph lacerating all the Jackson fans was darn funny.

User avatar
Denyer
Posts: 32326
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2000 4:00 am
Custom Title: Shooty Dog Thing
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by Denyer » Thu Jun 16, 2005 12:46 am

Originally posted by Bombshell
But it was proven that he gave alcohol to minors, which IS a crime.
So's using a VCR to record most TV programming. And at what age did we start drinking, with or without parental supervision?

Yes, it looks particularly bad from the angle of an adult possibly plying a teenager to make them more suggestible—and it's bloody stupid for anyone in the public eye to do so, because they leave themselves wide open to accusation.

I wouldn't consider any of the circumstances under which I've received or purchased alcohol to constitute abuse or neglect, though. One-age-fits-all restrictions fail to teach or allow responsible use, and also fail to allow parenting.

User avatar
Bombshell
Posts: 7516
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:00 am
Location: ...especially when he was kicking Spike's ass. ;)
Contact:

Post by Bombshell » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:04 am

Originally posted by Denyer
So's using a VCR to record most TV programming.


Only if you sell them for profit.

User avatar
Denyer
Posts: 32326
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2000 4:00 am
Custom Title: Shooty Dog Thing
Location: UK
Contact:

Post by Denyer » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:34 am

Nope. Though the situation in Canada is more relaxed, in the US I think you're limited to free-to-air broadcasts unless specifically allowed to make copies as part of a cable agreement. The UK is actually stricter.

Oh, and it's illegal to serve someone who's inebriated in a public house.

Nobody actually gives a sh*t, of course—the point is that a society in which everyone can be nailed on a variety of offences is one that grants power of extortion to a wide range of people.

User avatar
CounterPunch
Protoform
Posts: 3394
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2002 5:00 am
Location: What?
Contact:

Post by CounterPunch » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:25 am

Originally posted by Denyer
Nope. Though the situation in Canada is more relaxed, in the US I think you're limited to free-to-air broadcasts unless specifically allowed to make copies as part of a cable agreement. The UK is actually stricter.

Oh, and it's illegal to serve someone who's inebriated in a public house.

Nobody actually gives a sh*t, of course—the point is that a society in which everyone can be nailed on a variety of offences is one that grants power of extortion to a wide range of people.


Yep, technically I am breaking the law when working, it is illegal for us to sell alcohol to someone who is drunk, but we are told to (unless theyre abusive) as refusal may inflame a situation that might put my safety in danger.

User avatar
Galvatron91
Posts: 8359
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 4:00 am
Location: Keeping the world safe from crappy posts

Post by Galvatron91 » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:09 pm

Originally posted by Redstreak
The bottom line, Erik, is I'm quite sick with the celebrity obsessed country we live in.


That is because Americans are morons J, you should know this already as you've worked in a customer service job before. The only thing we can do is learn to start ignoring these ****tards...we won't as a society, but I find I'm much happier now that I ignore much of American "culture." (and I used the term culture in the absolute loosest sense of the word)
Image

User avatar
Chromia
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: <---- means that this post is written in a good natured tone.

Post by Chromia » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:02 am

Originally posted by Brave Maximus


One more time, an attempt to go back on topic: Do people agree that celebrities are held to a different standard than "normal" people?


Yeah, I do..

And most of them are a bunch of idiots. This is one of the reasons I don't watch a lot of TV.

User avatar
Brave Maximus
Posts: 5877
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2002 11:50 pm
Location: Gehenna

Post by Brave Maximus » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:11 am

There's nothing wrong with watching a lot of TV (ok, well, there is, but it's mostly health releated - and the same can be said for internet usage). The problem comes when you start caring about what the stars do after they walk off the set.

Case in point. Joss Stone was hit on in an LA Club (As reported here) - she then told the guy she had a BF and he got pissed and stormed off. I have a lot of female friends (as well as a wife) who this has happened to - did it make the news? Of course not. So why should we care about Joss Stone?

There are men and women accused of child molestation every day - yet none warrent 24 hour survalience of the accused by every news station on the continant (well, actually, I don't think Quebec sent anyone, it's not like it was Celine Dion or something). I mean, the fact that the Roman Catholic church has continued allogations of sexual misconduct by their preists usually only warrents a page 7 or 8 article at most!

The point where it starts to become a problem is when you live vicariously through your favourite celebrities. When you start caring about them and what they did, more than what you college bound child did today.... that's when the problem starts. Do I think MJ should have been held to a different standard? Of course not. I also don't think he should have had as much attention on him as he did.


Edit as Streak beat me to posting:

Well, it would deffinatly dissuade any reasonable doubt. But then, wouldn't those jurors be contaminated and be in-elligable for the jury selection pool? ;)

I was going to suggest that perhaps, in higher profile cases (like MJ's) - would it be better to change the venue to another state. One where the public isn't so.... involved. But, that's a dangerous precident to set in the USA. With the Death Penatly in some states - something like that could easily be abused. Though I do think there has to be a better way to get a completely fair trial, for both the prosocution and defence......

Again, the US criminal justice (ooooh, there's an oxymoron) system is rather strange. Esp when you've been educated in the Canadian one (though, I'll admit, I was always more interested in constitutional law - which is why that bloody SCOC decision pissed me right the hell off.... but I digress) - I mean, with the whole Karla Homolka restriction thing, the Ontario Government was able to take their case to Quebec for the hearing - which is a wonderful thing. It deffinatly provided more impartiality for Homolka.... though it's hard to find complete impartiality for that woman in Canada.....

User avatar
RID Scourge
Posts: 13262
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:00 am
Location: In ur newz forum. Reading ur newz!

Post by RID Scourge » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:17 am

Yeah, they are, which is unfortunate, seeing as they aren't any better than a non-celebrity.

Something I've come to realize is that there are many celebirites, who are no better than scum, but there are many, who have integrity. Being someone, who really doesn't really follow celebirites, I'd be hard-pressed to name people in these categories (honestly, I doubt any of us are actually qualified, as we don't know what's in their hearts), but I'm sure of it.

User avatar
Sociopathic Autobot
Posts: 2982
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:08 am
Location: I'm ****ing Ben Affleck

Post by Sociopathic Autobot » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:32 am

Originally posted by Brave Maximus
I mean, with the whole Karla Homolka restriction thing, the Ontario Government was able to take their case to Quebec for the hearing - which is a wonderful thing. It deffinatly provided more impartiality for Homolka.... though it's hard to find complete impartiality for that woman in Canada.....


That entire case is more than enough proof that the Canadian justice system is so soft it doesn't matter. I am not afraid to kill someone because I know they will dumb it down to man-slaughter and I'll be out of jail in 12 years.
Image
SAGE GOES IN ALL FIELDS

User avatar
Galvatron91
Posts: 8359
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 4:00 am
Location: Keeping the world safe from crappy posts

Re: Re: <---- means that this post is written in a good natured tone.

Post by Galvatron91 » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:40 am

Originally posted by Redstreak
Sorry you're in a bad mood. The best way to shake it is to have yourself a big laugh.


Wrong jerkey, sex and booze are clearly better ways to shake a bad mood!

User avatar
Sociopathic Autobot
Posts: 2982
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:08 am
Location: I'm ****ing Ben Affleck

Re: Re: Re: <---- means that this post is written in a good natured tone.

Post by Sociopathic Autobot » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:41 am

Originally posted by Galvatron91
sex

I agree.
Image
SAGE GOES IN ALL FIELDS

User avatar
Amarant Odinson
Protoform
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:54 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: <---- means that this post is written in a good natured tone.

Post by Amarant Odinson » Sun Jun 19, 2005 6:56 am

Originally posted by Brave Maximus
, not to mention that b**tard Amarant Odinson


EH! Screw you hippy.
Image
WRESTLING:
In Canada, its a Tradition... in Mexico, its a Religion.... in Japan, its a Sport... in America.... Its a Joke.


Locked