Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens discussion thread NOW WITH SPOILERS NOW THE FILM IS OUT.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:38 pm

Anakin and Obi Wan should have had some merry japes around the galaxy. Drinking and shagging and gambling. If anything perhaps Anakin's descent could have been helped by the fact that he simply couldn't keep up with Obi Wan's debauchery.

All of this could have happened whilst they were young and carefree, only getting down to some serious Jedi stuff once they'd had their fill. Again, that twinkle in Alec Guiness' eye that out-acted almost everything else in Star Wars. It was that twinkle as he talked about the past; he was a filthy hound dog and wouldn't you be if you were one of the coolest people in the galaxy?

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:40 pm

That's why Kirk got it right in the 2009 Star Trek. He was a tart and a muppet. That's far more realistic and fun to watch that the button down sanitised rubbish of the TV shows (I mean TNG, Voyager and so on).

I enjoyed The Next Generation back then but I couldn't stomach it now. That 'Best of Both Worlds' 2-parter was a nail biter. "This shit just got real" was how my little brain felt seeing that for the first time

Dead Man Wade · Post by **Dead Man Wade** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:45 pm

I dunno. Lucas doesn't have a great track record when it comes to writing characters that aren't swimming in angst. We'd have been far more likely to get a Jar Jar than a Han Solo.

Auntie Slag · Post by **Auntie Slag** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:54 pm

He wised up to the fact that no-one liked Jar Jar pretty quickly. I liked Watto though, and the wacky aliens in the iPod race (and that little chicken thing that Jabba flicked into the crowd. Loved its little dramatic cry as it fell). Lucas has a good flair for those sorts of things.

Part of why I love Star Wars is because of all the weird little bits going on around the edge of a scene.

ganon578 · Post by **ganon578** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:24 pm

Dead Man Wade wrote:It's that, ultimately, we don't need appearances by every ****ing character Lucas created. We know it's a Star Wars movie without Chewbacca showing up for an unneccesary cameo, or mini-Boba, or Jimmy Smits showing up to take Leia for no other reason than because Jimmy Smits is just awesome like that. I don't care.

Like the "What if Episode One Were Good?" video pointed out, the secret to doing a sequel or prequel is to make everything feel old, but new. Lucas thought you did this by sticking every character from the OT in there, whether they belonged or not. But it can be achieved by carrying over themes and arcs.

Also, Dark Side aside, Anakin seemed like he was just waiting for a chance to start killing younglings.

That's a good point. It's fun to see little Easter Eggs like the Millenium Falcon sitting in a port on Naboo or Coruscant, it's not quite fun to have Chewie shoe-horned in with Yoda for no reason.

Anakin's descent could have easily been handled differently instead of the quick drop that's shown in the movies. The Clone Wars also explored this a little more and shed quite a bit of light on his growing mistrust of the council. Instead we just get to see him get cranky that he might not get to hump Padme after she croaks, so he lops off Mace's arm, cries a bit, then bows to Sidious because he's got nothing better to do at the moment.

Auntie Slag wrote:Anakin and Obi Wan should have had some merry japes around the galaxy. Drinking and shagging and gambling. If anything perhaps Anakin's descent could have been helped by the fact that he simply couldn't keep up with Obi Wan's debauchery.

All of this could have happened whilst they were young and carefree, only getting down to some serious Jedi stuff once they'd had their fill. Again, that twinkle in Alec Guiness' eye that out-acted almost everything else in Star Wars. It was that twinkle as he talked about the past; he was a filthy hound dog and wouldn't you be if you were one of the coolest people in the galaxy?

The Clone Wars actually did a good job of the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic & adventures. You never see it through the prequels, and when Obi-Wan talks wistfully of Luke's father in IV, you kind of wonder what the hell he's talking about after watching I-III. Anakin's more just an arrogant, whiny dick in those movies.

Dead Man Wade wrote:I dunno. Lucas doesn't have a great track record when it comes to writing characters that aren't swimming in angst. We'd have been far more likely to get a Jar Jar than a Han Solo.

I agree with that - it's also a good reason to be optimistic about the new movies. Lucas hasn't done anything with Episode VII, so I view it much in the same light as the recent Clone Wars and Rebels series done by Filoni, et al. which have been very enjoyable, IMO. I hope new people can write interesting characters in this universe.

Dead Man Wade · Post by **Dead Man Wade** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:52 pm

ganon578 wrote: Anakin's descent could have easily been handled differently instead of the quick drop that's shown in the movies. The Clone Wars also explored this a little more and shed quite a bit of light on his growing mistrust of the council. Instead we just get to see him get cranky that he might not get to hump Padme after she croaks, so he lops off Mace's arm, cries a bit, then bows to Sidious because he's got nothing better to do at the moment.

One of my favorite things anyone ever did about the prequels was Twisted Toyfare Theatre's parody of Episode III. Mace Windu says something like "While we recognize your position as Senator Palpatine's liaison, we do not award you a seat on the the Council." Anakin responds with, "WHAT?! How dare you deny me a position I haven't earned!"

I agree with that - it's also a good reason to be optimistic about the new movies. Lucas hasn't done anything with Episode VII, so I view it much in the same light as the recent Clone Wars and Rebels series done by Filoni, et al. which have been very enjoyable, IMO. I hope new people can write interesting characters in this universe.

Yeah, I have high hopes that Disney taking over will yield positive results. Frankly, after the prequels, I'd be thrilled if they moved away from the Skywalkers as possible. They have an entire galaxy to play with, so I'd like to see them do more than just Luke's kids' gardener.

Selkadoom · Post by **Selkadoom** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:26 am

Dead Man Wade wrote: Yeah, I have high hopes that Disney taking over will yield positive results. Frankly, after the prequels, I'd be thrilled if they moved away from the Skywalkers as possible. They have an entire galaxy to play with, so I'd like to see them do more than just Luke's kids' gardener.

They could always tap Bioware to let them run around in the old republic era or the thousand or so years before Epsiode 1 after that. Honestly something involving Bane would be mana from heaven for me

Cyberstrike nTo · Post by **Cyberstrike nTo** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:05 pm

Selkadoom wrote:They could always tap Bioware to let them run around in the old republic era or the thousand or so years before Epsiode 1 after that. Honestly something involving Bane would be mana from heaven for me

That was Darth Bane was in KotoR 2 that was from Obsidian not Bioware. Bioware did the first one and the MMO.

Unicron · Post by **Unicron** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:51 pm

Cyberstrike nTo wrote:That was Darth Bane was in KotoR 2 that was from Obsidian not Bioware. Bioware did the first one and the MMO.

Bane wasn't in any of the games. He came later, as I recall. (Wookiepedia puts Bane at around 1000 years before A New Hope, while the two Knights games would be around 3950-ish.)

Cyberstrike nTo · Post by **Cyberstrike nTo** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:57 pm

Unicron wrote:Bane wasn't in any of the games. He came later, as I recall. (Wookiepedia puts Bane at around 1000 years before A New Hope, while the two Knights games would be around 3950-ish.)

Yeah that was right. I was thinking of the Sith Lord of Hunger (who was pretty much the Star Wars version of Unicron and Galactus), who after being built up as a such a powerful character the Sith Lord of Hunger was such a wimp.

IIRC wasn't Darth Bane was in a book called The Rule of Two by Drew Karyshew?

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:35 pm

I can't see Star Wars using a villain called Bane post Dark Knight Rises (I don't know if the SW version predates the Batman version, but as a villain's name it's now very much linked with another franchise in the minds of audiences).

Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.

Brendocon 2.0 · Post by **Brendocon 2.0** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:36 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.

Now to find something that works on you...

Post by **Warcry** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:02 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:I can't see Star Wars using a villain called Bane post Dark Knight Rises (I don't know if the SW version predates the Batman version, but as a villain's name it's now very much linked with another franchise in the minds of audiences).

I'm pretty sure that Batman's Bane predates the Star Wars version by at least a decade, and you're right that his presence in the public consciousness makes it hard for Star Wars to use him.

Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

inflatable dalek wrote:Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.

It's no fun if we're not ruining other threads, but fine...

Selkadoom · Post by **Selkadoom** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:13 pm

Cyberstrike nTo wrote:Yeah that was right. I was thinking of the Sith Lord of Hunger (who was pretty much the Star Wars version of Unicron and Galactus), who after being built up as a such a powerful character the Sith Lord of Hunger was such a wimp.

IIRC wasn't Darth Bane was in a book called The Rule of Two by Drew Karyshew?

Drew Karpyshyn or however its spelled but yes. He had a trillogy of books based around his rise to the Sith, killing the entire order and creating the Rule of Two, and his final battle with his apprentice. Its a good read considering Drew is Biowares main writer for the KOTOR series.

But as a TL;DR, Darth Bane's the creator of the Rule of Two and considered the sith equivalent of the Messiah as he set them up to attain galactic dominance. Also je had badass parasitic armor

Warcry wrote:I'm pretty sure that Batman's Bane predates the Star Wars version by at least a decade, and you're right that his presence in the public consciousness makes it hard for Star Wars to use him.

Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

I know everything post Jedi was rendered non canon but I'm unsure of Biowares things being tossed out too. There's also the fact he was brought into the Clone Wars Cartoon series finale so perhaps theres that as well.

ganon578 · Post by **ganon578** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:59 pm

Warcry wrote:Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

Selkadoom wrote:I know everything post Jedi was rendered non canon but I'm unsure of Biowares things being tossed out too. There's also the fact he was brought into the Clone Wars Cartoon series finale so perhaps theres that as well.

Darth Bane as seen in the Clone Wars CGI show is considered canon. I can't recall if they discuss the 'Rule of Two' in that episode, so the jury's out on that one. I don't think the Karpyshyn books count anymore.

When the Great Canon Purge of Disney happened, they now consider the six main movies, The Clone Wars series, and Rebels all canon. New movies, both in the main timeline and off-shoot 'Anthology' movies will be considered canon as well. The new novels and Marvel comics are also considered canon, unless labeled as 'Legends'. All of the old EU stuff is considered 'Legends' now, including the video games. A few weeks back I was in Barnes & Noble and some new prints of old paperbacks had a big 'Legends' banner at the top.

Selkadoom · Post by **Selkadoom** » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:26 pm

ganon578 wrote:Darth Bane as seen in the Clone Wars CGI show is considered canon. I can't recall if they discuss the 'Rule of Two' in that episode, so the jury's out on that one. I don't think the Karpyshyn books count anymore.

When the Great Canon Purge of Disney happened, they now consider the six main movies, The Clone Wars series, and Rebels all canon. New movies, both in the main timeline and off-shoot 'Anthology' movies will be considered canon as well. The new novels and Marvel comics are also considered canon, unless labeled as 'Legends'. All of the old EU stuff is considered 'Legends' now, including the video games. A few weeks back I was in Barnes & Noble and some new prints of old paperbacks had a big 'Legends' banner at the top.

Looking at the Dialogue between him and Yoda it implies that he is still the founder of the Rule of Two Sith Order. Also unrelated note Its very amusing they had Mark Hamil voice him

ganon578 · Post by **ganon578** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:45 pm

Selkadoom wrote:Looking at the Dialogue between him and Yoda it implies that he is still the founder of the Rule of Two Sith Order. Also unrelated note Its very amusing they had Mark Hamil voice him

OK, I couldn't remember off the top of my head and I wasn't in a spot to be able to check it out on YouTube. I suppose that means it's canon then! I had watched the whole Clone Wars series on Netflix recently - very enjoyable.

Hamill has made quite a profession for himself in voice acting, eh?

Cyberstrike nTo · Post by **Cyberstrike nTo** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:09 pm

Selkadoom wrote:Drew Karpyshyn or however its spelled but yes. He had a trillogy of books based around his rise to the Sith, killing the entire order and creating the Rule of Two, and his final battle with his apprentice. Its a good read considering Drew is Biowares main writer for the KOTOR series.

He was also the original lead writer for Mass Effect and co-lead writer for Mass Effect 2 and he also wrote the first 3 novels for the Mass Effect franchise.

Selkadoom · Post by **Selkadoom** » Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:27 pm

ganon578 wrote:OK, I couldn't remember off the top of my head and I wasn't in a spot to be able to check it out on YouTube. I suppose that means it's canon then! I had watched the whole Clone Wars series on Netflix recently - very enjoyable.

Hamill has made quite a profession for himself in voice acting, eh?

Amusingly yes he has. The Joker being his most iconic role aside from Luke.

Cyberstrike nTo wrote:He was also the original lead writer for Mass Effect and co-lead writer for Mass Effect 2 and he also wrote the first 3 novels for the Mass Effect franchise.

He seems to have been the guy they went to to get a good story

Cyberstrike nTo · Post by **Cyberstrike nTo** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:48 am

Selkadoom wrote:Amusingly yes he has. The Joker being his most iconic role aside from Luke.

He seems to have been the guy they went to to get a good story

Well David Gaider and Patrick Weeks are also pretty good. Marc Walters is good at smaller quests not the overall arc. Casey Hudson should never be allowed to write a story for the rest of his life.