Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens discussion thread NOW WITH SPOILERS NOW THE FILM IS OUT.

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Cliffjumper
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Post by Cliffjumper » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:20 pm

I'm not bothering to go and see it. I made a comment on someone's facebook in response to a minor spoiler, their brother intentionally spoilt what I imagine are the two of the most pivotal plot developments of the film out of sheer twatty spite.

The fun's kind-of gone out of it as a result, it's just another film now, like Amazing Spider-Man 2 or Fury or something; I'll watch it when the DVD's cheap. It was nice getting caught up in the hype and being part of the excitement for a little while, nice to be involved in trying to get a few friends together for a fun afternoon off from being a grown up after the madness of Christmas, but there we go, that's life - you get excited about something, then a c**t comes along and ****s things up.

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Brendocon 2.0
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Post by Brendocon 2.0 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:18 pm

Yeah, some people are massive ****ing wankers. Really pleased with the fact that, even today, none of the 1000+ people I follow on Twitter have dropped the ball on it.

As far as the film goes, really enjoyed it.

Massively derivative nostalgia-fest, but to the point where it becomes the thematic subtext of the narrative.

Could sit and pick holes in it forever if I felt like it, but the whole experience was so emotionally satisfying that I really don't want to.

The sort of film that makes me want to use the term "fanwank" as a positive.

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Post by Cliffjumper » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:45 pm

Brendocon 2.0 wrote:Yeah, some people are massive ****ing wankers. Really pleased with the fact that, even today, none of the 1000+ people I follow on Twitter have dropped the ball on it.
Yeh, kind-of the worst bit of it all TBH. There're civilians all over my facebook who don't "do" this sort of thing and think a spoiler is something you use to make your Peugeot 206 look like a sportscar and yet there seems to have been a society-wide awareness that slapping the plot all over social media is Not Cool.

Then someone does it on purpose; it's a curious sensation, to have a total stranger who you're unaware of ever doing any harm to (and indeed like to think you've been a good friend to one of their family members on the whole) just shit on you. Maybe I just don't get excited about enough stuff and thus this one stands out, or maybe it's just envy that so many friends have managed to watch the film as unsullied as they chose to be and that decision's been taken out of my hands by someone acting the twat.

I'm sure there are many other good bits in the film and that it'll be an enjoyable watch whenever I get round to it, but it's definitely shifted it from being a once-in-a-generation shared experience to just another film I'll be watching in a couple of years when CEX put it down to three quid. If you gave me the DVD today it probably wouldn't even jump up the (meticulously ordered) watchlist.

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Post by Brendocon 2.0 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:54 pm

Is it definite legit spoilers they've given? I mean I've totally got form for just making up fake spoilers on social media to distract people, but genuinely ruining something on purpose is over the line.

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Post by Cliffjumper » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:05 am

The spite and clear intention to spoil things makes me think pretty much yeh, and it's certainly close enough to likely to be at the back of my mind for the whole film. We're not talking your "Ackbar bums Nieb-Nieb" stuff.

The spoiler in question...
SPOILER! (select to read)
Kylo Ren is Han's son and kills him; who Ren was and what happens to Han were basically the two burning questions for me after the trailer even if they're not the main show
It's odd in a way thinking about it as I've read A Song of Ice and Fire knowing what are probably the pivotal events thanks to being dimly aware of Sar's watching of Game of Thrones
SPOILER! (select to read)
Ned dies, Red Wedding, Twincest, Theon gets ****ed up
and it didn't particularly affect my enjoyment, possibly because the media's been out in one form or another for 20 years or whatever. Feels a bit different for a film that's been out for 4 days; I mean, come mid-Jan or what have you you're perhaps a bit more into "fair enough" territory.

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Post by Brendocon 2.0 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:20 am

Yeah your friend's brother's a ****.

Admittedly I could bluff it and tell you it's lies but the moment you watch it and find out half of it's true then the gig is up and you'll be just as disappointed as if you'd known straight up.

I had the book 1 of ASoiaF thing spoiled for me too, but as you say, that was over a decade old. Force Awakens hasn't even got through its opening weekend yet.

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Post by Sades » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:58 am

Good thing you don't read Reddit, people have been posting spoilers everywhere.

While I don't feel the same way about Star Wars, giving spoilers to someone who is clearly excited is really just a shit thing to do. Sorry to hear the experience has been ruined.
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Post by ganon578 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:34 pm

I saw it this weekend and enjoyed every minute of it, possible flaws and all. I'm sure some things will stand out over time that would slightly bug me, but the overall enjoyment of the whole flick is more than enough to overcome that. :)

Very pleased that I could see it this early, and my wife also came with me, so that's a bonus! And she didn't even ask questions midway through, which I wouldn't have had answers to anyways!
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Post by inflatable dalek » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:10 pm

I ruined Star Wars for Cliffy.

I still don't know what made my brother do that (or what people saw in Cliffy's original response to my accidental spoiler that resulted in the first I knew about the entire fuss being being some very odd texts from otherwise sane friends. Have Star Wars fans done something horrid without me realising? Cliffy is actually a very nice man and definately didn't deserve any of this) considering he's normally a placid laid back sort of chap who never really gets pissed off with anyway. He's certainly not a twat, so him randomly acting like one for no reason was bizarre.

He has been told off though, and I'm sure there will be more on Christmas Day.

SPOILER! (select to read)
I'd simply shared a link about how Ewan McGregor recorded a one line voice over as Obi-Wan for the dream sequence, with my coyness over which actor it was talking about ruined by a massive picture of him accompanying the link. Oddly between that, the "We do have clone storm troopers" and the mention of the Sith I think this film was actually more respectful to the Prequel trilogy than it was Return of the Jedi. A lot of the film is basically committed to proving the title of that one was a blatant lie.

As Cliffy mentioned Nieb-Nieb, I think I spotted his name on the credits but didn't see him in the film itself. Was Ackbar actually bumming him?
I'd definitely say it's still worth seeing at the cinema over DVD though, as with the Bay films this is the sort of Big Visual Feast that seeing it on a telly is going to lose more than knowing the basic plot will (it's no consolation, but this is not a film where the plot matters especially anyway, it's a very predictable movie). Especially if the people you were going to see it with are still going. And it is huge, huge fun despite my issues with the second half.
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Post by Brendocon 2.0 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:22 pm

I like to interpret the title of episode 6 as referring to Anakin specifically, but that's probably just me.
SPOILER! (select to read)
The only thing that dream sequence was missing was Leoben popping up saying "all this has happened before"

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Post by inflatable dalek » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:10 pm

SPOILER! (select to read)
Apparently Frank Oz recorded something for the dream as well, but they wound up using archive footage instead, they meshed McGregor's line with archive Guinness as well (I didn't spot any of this).

I guess this is supposed to signpost Ewan and Yoda still hanging around with Luke as Force ghosts in the next one? Oh, it'd be hilarious if Ren isn't loopy when he's talking to the helmet and ghost Hayden Christian is loitering around him.

Seems a lot of effort if it's not supposed to signify something, considering some corners of the internet seem determined to make Ray's parents Significant I'm hoping she's now Kenobi's secret granddaughter or something.

I actually joked to a friend they should make her Luke and Leia's daughter to bring back the incest. But apparently there's a lot of Star Wars fans who think that already.

Probably a silly question:

So was Luke's light sabre the one he lost on Bespin or was female Ronnie Corbett just being figurative when she said it belonged to Anakin as well? Why would it be seen as a thing of awe when it once hacked some small children to death? How do people tell one light sabre from another by looking at it when they're all basically the same?

Why does Ray think waving it at Luke is a better greeting than just going "Hello, I've come from some friends of yours (one of whom couldn't be ****ed to walk up the cliff, but he's an old Wookie now. Maybe you should put a stair lift in) and have some bad news"?
Slightly sad to hear from a friend that, based on their knowledge of Peter Mayhew's health (apparently he's been in a wheelchair!), he almost certainly only did the facial close ups on Chewbacca.

Oh, and...
SPOILER! (select to read)
Why did they do the gag of Han being surprised to discover Chewies bowcaster thing is a fun gun twice?
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Post by inflatable dalek » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:17 pm

Ohhhhh, and two injokes I was expecting and for which the film deserves props for not doing:

SPOILER! (select to read)
At no point did Ackbar feel trapped (though it says a lot about how crap the baddies are that the guy who was once surprised when he walked into a blatant trap is now on top of things) and no one said "That's no Death Star".
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Post by ganon578 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:23 pm

In response to a couple of Dalek's questions:
SPOILER! (select to read)
Yes, the lightsaber that Rey now has was Luke's, given to him by Obi-Wan that definitely was Anakin's. Don't know if it's necessarily a thing of awe, but she mentions that it 'called' to Rey. That must be the Force acting in such a way to bring back the light side? I mean, Luke is around to represent the Light, but he's been in hiding for what seems like a significant period of time.

I didn't mind that Rey held out the saber to Luke. It was just a bit odd that he didn't say anything. I got the impression that he kind of expected her to appear, but I was also expecting him to say something along the lines of "That's yours now."

But to add to your incest idea (boy does that sound odd), why would the saber choose Rey? Seems like there has to be some sort of lineage there. It's been in the Skywalker family since it was built, and it called to her. I don't know, it just seems to make sense that she would be family. Maybe Luke's daughter? But why would he abandon her?

Han/Chewie gag: I don't know either, but I thought it a bit odd that they'd pull that twice as well.
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Post by ganon578 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:16 am

SPOILER! (select to read)
Also, where did Supreme Commander Snoke come from? Apparently he's ancient, full of wisdom, and powerful in the dark side of the force. In the times of the Sith, there were only two - Master & Apprentice. The last two were Palpatine and Vader. How does Snoke fit into that? Surely he's older than 30. I can't even begin to have an idea on how he fits.
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Post by inflatable dalek » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:04 pm

SPOILER! (select to read)
I've seen people calling Ren and Serkis "Sith" a lot, but they're not are they? Ren at least is a... well a Ren.
One completely silly thing that's not remotely the fault of the film as there was nothing they'd have been able to do about it anyway and it's more a problem with me than them:

Did anyone else find the way Leia has a voice you can only get from decades of chain smoking mildly distracting? It didn't seem likely the character would have started rolling her own. As a friend said, "She opens her mouth and Satan's voice came out".
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Post by ganon578 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 9:44 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:Did anyone else find the way Leia has a voice you can only get from decades of chain smoking mildly distracting? It didn't seem likely the character would have started rolling her own. As a friend said, "She opens her mouth and Satan's voice came out".
Spot on, as I felt the same way. She played a good character, but you could tell her voice has seen better days.
SPOILER! (select to read)
I don't think Kylo Ren and Snoke are Sith. An interesting note that I read on some other forums, Jedi and Sith are only views of the Force from different sides. But there are several dark side users that aren't Sith, like Asajj Ventress, The Inquisitors, Dark Jedi, etc. It's completely feasible that they're dark side, but not Sith. And I suppose Ahsoka Tano is a light force user, though she does not align herself with Jedi.

Though, if Snoke has been around for what seems like centuries, how could Palpatine not know about him? Or was the dark side clouding the dark side?

I've also seen quite a bit of speculation that pegs Snoke as Darth Plagieus, Palpatine's former master. Apparently the guy had already found a way to manipulate life through the force, saving others from death. Surely a dude that powerful found a way to come back? I mean, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin all manifest themselves as force spirits. Maybe Snoke was powerful enough to come back full on?
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Post by Summerhayes » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:29 pm

I've kind of missed all the chat about this because I just worked a 17-day week, but umm...

yeah, that was Star Wars. Loved it.
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Post by Clay » Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:21 pm

I finally got to see it. That was so much better than I was expecting it to be...
inflatable dalek wrote:
SPOILER! (select to read)
I could just about buy Finn managing with a light sabre on the first attempt as he was facing off against a stormtrooper with a similar weapon, so presumably he's had some training. Rey doing force mind control and managing to best someone much further along in their training in a light sabre fight (did Ren not get beyond the "Fighting a wall" stage?) seemed more unlikely and made a mockery of all the "Becoming a Jedi takes years" stuff from the originals.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Hmm, no. During the fight you're talking about, the bad guy dude doesn't even have to fight them with a lightsaber as he could just use the force to crush their hearts or whatever. He's fighting them with a lightsaber because he's toying with them, and he's toying with them because he's arrogant from his own superiority. That's... like the whole point of that scene. And neither do the girl nor the guy seem in any way proficient with a light saber. They're just sort of flailing at the dude. The girl only bests him because of both his screw up and because she's probably going to be far better with the force than he is in the sequels.
Brendocon 2.0 wrote:Could sit and pick holes in it forever if I felt like it, but the whole experience was so emotionally satisfying that I really don't want to.
Yes, this. +1. LIKE, etc.
inflatable dalek wrote:
SPOILER! (select to read)
Oddly between that, the "We do have clone storm troopers" and the mention of the Sith I think this film was actually more respectful to the Prequel trilogy than it was Return of the Jedi. A lot of the film is basically committed to proving the title of that one was a blatant lie.
SPOILER! (select to read)
I think that it does more than that to Return of the Jedi. From what I've read, the original draft for that movie had Han dying in forest on Endor and Luke walking away from everyone at the end like a spaghetti western. In this movie, Han dies and we find out that Luke... wandered off like at the end of the spaghetti western.

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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:44 am

Clay wrote:
SPOILER! (select to read)
Hmm, no. During the fight you're talking about, the bad guy dude doesn't even have to fight them with a lightsaber as he could just use the force to crush their hearts or whatever. He's fighting them with a lightsaber because he's toying with them, and he's toying with them because he's arrogant from his own superiority. That's... like the whole point of that scene. And neither do the girl nor the guy seem in any way proficient with a light saber. They're just sort of flailing at the dude. The girl only bests him because of both his screw up and because she's probably going to be far better with the force than he is in the sequels.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Well to be fair, "Why are they fighting with swords when they can just throttle each other with their minds" is a problem with nearly every Jedi fight ever. I think the Vadar/Luke one at the end of Empire is the only one where they really go to town on one of them actually using the Force as a weapon rather than just light sabres. And based on what she managed to do to Daniel Craig on the first attempt (and her grabbing the light sabre over Ren), Ray could just have easily crushed his windpipe as well.


SPOILER! (select to read)
I think that it does more than that to Return of the Jedi. From what I've read, the original draft for that movie had Han dying in forest on Endor and Luke walking away from everyone at the end like a spaghetti western. In this movie, Han dies and we find out that Luke... wandered off like at the end of the spaghetti western.
[/QUOTE]
SPOILER! (select to read)
This is where knowing the behind the scenes stuff might have hurt the film a bit. I wonder if I wasn't aware that Ford had been petitioning for Han to be killed right from Empire (the "Frozen in Carbonite" thing was a compromise, IIRC he was the only one of the three leads not to be under a tight three film contract. Hence Han not being in the developed-as-a-potential-sequel Splinter of the Minds Eye book) that his death here would have been even slightly surprising. As it is, it was always going to be a condition of him coming back.
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Post by inflatable dalek » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:36 am

Oh, and one bit I thought was odd:

SPOILER! (select to read)
Why did Han and Leia name their son after Obi-Wan's pseudonym rather than his actual name? If they wanted to pay tribute to him it seems a bit dickish, "We're going to name our son after the name you adopted after your greatest failure!". I hope ghost-Kenobi wasn't still hanging around at that point.

Why I Love My Mum Part 5987645: She's does insist on constantly calling Kylo "Ben Solo" in every conversation, because she insists the name he's called once onscreen is easier to remember than what he's called throughout the rest of the movie. Bless her.
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