So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Chat about stuff other than Transformers.
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Clay
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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Clay » Tue May 26, 2020 9:20 pm

tahukanuva wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:38 pm
I know it seems silly, because it’s a message board for Hasbro’s ‘The Transformers’, but this website, and all of you on it, formed an important part of who I am, so thank you.
I mean, two members from here got married and had a kid, so you're still on the low end of the "this forum changed my life" scale, lol.

Which part of Kentucky are you in? I seem to remember you being in Tennessee before.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Ryan F » Wed May 27, 2020 5:11 pm

Skyquake87 wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:32 pm
...I was looking at that Windblade kit again. I'm probably a bad person for saying this, but I quite like it (I think it's cute) and - if it's not been ruined by the internet pile on- would like to pick one of those up.
Good to hear from you Ryan! I read your book! It's great :)
Aww, shucks! Seriously, though, cheers for the kind words. It really means a lot.

Yeah, ‘ruined by the internet’ is a good way to put it, I think, but not in the way you meant it - I can’t even look at pictures of that model kit now without it dredging up memories of some absolutely horrible online abuse. It’s like when a song brings back sad memories or something, and you can’t bear to hear it.

But that kinda thing just makes me appreciate the good Transformers people more, you know what I mean? There are still a lot of nice people around. And because of this crummy virus I can’t tell them that in person.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Skyquake87 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 pm

Ah, well. It's the internet. It's not happened in the real world, so it doesn't matter :P

Social media and teh interwebz bring out the worst in people. They forget there's a human being at the other end. That's why I don't do much of this online stuff. Who has the time, for one thing? And yeah, you can find yourself drawn into some right old nonsense about stuff that isn't really that important with people you've never met! Amazing.

And yes, I do know what you mean. I'm good like that.

I am drinking tea!

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by inflatable dalek » Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm

Well, the pile on wasn't on the toy, but on the women who were angry. Several of whom have now been driven from the fandom.

The kit itself is apparently still coming because Fanstoys and whoever at Hasbro is approving this stuff gives no craps.

(And because that reads as very grumpy, I also endorse the qualities of Ryan's book)

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Warcry » Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm
The kit itself is apparently still coming because Fanstoys and whoever at Hasbro is approving this stuff gives no craps.
Would you prefer that they cancelled it because a small number of people on the internet were loudly offended by it? Before you answer, remember that the world is absolutely full of right wing nutjobs who would happily engineer the rage-cancellation of all sorts of things that YOU like...

For the record, the Windblade kit in question falls squarely into the "I'm embarrassed this even exists" category for me, but I'd much rather it get released and bomb because most of the fandom doesn't want it than see it cancelled and have neckbeards use it as a rallying cry in some silly culture war for the next five years. Of course, now that it's become a target for performative outrage mobs on Twitter, a whole bunch of people who don't even like Transformers are going to buy it just to make a political statement, and Hasbro will license even more stuff like this. :(

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Denyer » Sun May 31, 2020 1:47 pm

I don't think Hasbro's fussy about what it licenses, particularly around the movies -- the only reason there aren't Transformers brand 'oil' lube sachets is probably no-one's asked and paid the fee.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Tantrum » Sun May 31, 2020 6:12 pm

Warcry wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 pm
Would you prefer that they cancelled it because a small number of people on the internet were loudly offended by it? Before you answer, remember that the world is absolutely full of right wing nutjobs who would happily engineer the rage-cancellation of all sorts of things that YOU like...
I'd prefer the kit come with swapable butt cheeks of different sizes, like most of them come with swapable hands in different positions. You could have a Windblade with a big butt, or a small butt. Or lopsided.

I don't want them to redesign Windblade because the current figure is too pervy. I want them to redesign Windblade so it looks like Windblade. It's not just the T&A. There's a lot of texture/plating that doesn't mesh with Windblade's sleeker look in the toons and toys. The wings should probably be bigger. Plus, the expression doesn't fit Windblade. In the toons, Windblade is happy and confident. This appears to be neither.

I like snap together model robot kits. I like Windblade. I'd really like a snap together model kit that looks like Windblade. This ain't it. And, if this Windblade model kit gets released, the odds of a good one being made drop to next to nothing. I'd prefer a Windblade kit designed for toon accuracy, and whoever designed this Windblade being reassigned to Blackarachnia.

Right wing nutjobs have been trying to rage cancel things since Married With Children. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. They're not going to stop because decent people unilaterally disarm.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Warcry » Sun May 31, 2020 7:29 pm

Tantrum wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:12 pm
I like snap together model robot kits. I like Windblade. I'd really like a snap together model kit that looks like Windblade. This ain't it. And, if this Windblade model kit gets released, the odds of a good one being made drop to next to nothing. I'd prefer a Windblade kit designed for toon accuracy, and whoever designed this Windblade being reassigned to Blackarachnia.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't think a respectful, well thought out portrayal of the character was ever on the table here. This is clearly aimed at the same market that buys statues of Wonder Woman or Black Widow that look like eight year old anime girls with breast implants...they clearly didn't want to make a decent Windblade, they wanted to make a sexycute pinup robot and Windblade was subjected to it because she's Hasbro's current it-girl. Five years ago it would have been Prime Arcee being disrespected. The best thing to do is not give them any money for it, and support portrayals of the character that are more respectful.
Tantrum wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 6:12 pm
Right wing nutjobs have been trying to rage cancel things since Married With Children. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. They're not going to stop because decent people unilaterally disarm.
If the standards for cancelling something becomes "eleven people got mad about it on Twitter", though, it becomes a lot easier for them to succeed. I certainly don't want to live in a world where nothing that might offend anyone has any chance of getting produced. I'm not saying that people shouldn't say "I don't like this Windblade" -- I don't like this Windblade. But saying it shouldn't exist because I don't like it is a step too far for me.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Denyer » Sun May 31, 2020 7:52 pm

The same argument could be made about social acceptance of upskirting at gigs or airbrushing publicity photos -- societies as a whole tend to (eventually) push back against things that make people uncomfortable, and sexualising lead characters in children's shows is on that continuum. Rule 34 fan art is different to a big company putting out or endorsing it.

I'd nuke Twitter from orbit, its business model is amplification of outrage on all political viewpoints and is hardly a net benefit to the species, but Hasbro as a toy manufacturer having committed publicly to statements like https://csr.hasbro.com/downloads/CSR_20 ... df#page=53 makes them hypocrites.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Red Dave Prime Mk 2 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:07 am

Not sure how I ended up back on this forum today but this thread seems as good a place as any to resurface. Hope you all are keeping well. I enjoyed my time here (during the heady IDW era, particularly MTMTE) but the Transformers themselves kinda lost me. I still read over the old comics from time to time and my 6 year old inherited my old TF toys which kept the spark going but the movies wore me down (last one was a stinker)

Like a few here, I drifted after Roberts finished his run - out of curiosity how is the new IDW run going? Is it worth getting into? Is Dalek covering it on his podcast? Might be the best place to catch up.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Denyer » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:06 pm

Yeah -- folks have done a retrospective on the first 12 issues on the podcast.

Personally I got the first year's worth of issues and very much liked it for the way it conveys scale, world-building and (towards the end) more credible interaction with other species than most previous comics. If you're looking for battles or fast-paced plot it won't appeal. The last issue of that story arc was as much a jumping-off point as making way for a jumping-on point, and I haven't looked at the tie-in stuff that's been released. Will check out reviews and probably the collected editions at some point. Last time I looked, IDW had only released fairly pricey hardbacks, so having already bought the singles I wasn't going to double dip.

I've kind of gone in the other direction, been enjoying a few toy releases with not much happening comics-wise.

If you want to try to sort something out with your old account, let me know.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Red Dave Prime Mk 2 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:06 pm

I'll probably stick with this one for the moment.

On the subject of toy reviews, I'm not a collector but I've always loved the reviews on this website over the video stuff. Yes the video stuff shows you exactly how the toy works but there isn't nearly as much character compared to the written word. But I'm an older generation so maybe there is that. I've tried watching a few toy reviews but apart from giving you an accurate idea of the toy, they arent that interesting and can go on for way too long in some cases. I often feel like abe simpson, shouting "just eat the damn orange!"

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Skyquake87 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:42 pm

Oh god, yeah. Too many toy reviews these days are EPIC (this seems to have increased since the US government took steps to enforce COPPA and people change their channels to avoid attracting kids. Mainly by boring us all to death with live streams and longer reviews). And not in a good way. A toy's worth picking up or it's not. Get to the damn point. Generally stick to Shartimus Prime (mainly does Marvel Legends, with the odd bit of TF stuff) Baltmatrix and Thew. I don't need endless pre-ambles and wafflings. I just want to know - is it any good and is it worth it?

Nice to hear from you Dave :) Hope you're well too! I am also not reading the comics since the Roberts run ended. Apart from the Hachette part-work thing.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Hound » Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:40 pm

As far as toy reviews go I pretty much only watch Peaugh at this point. He used to spend a lot of time at the beginning of his reviews talking but in the last while has gotten a lot better about getting to the transformation. I used to watch a few others regularly but Peaugh has been more consistent with his output than anyone I used to watch before.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by inflatable dalek » Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:28 pm

Warcry wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 pm
inflatable dalek wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:22 pm
The kit itself is apparently still coming because Fanstoys and whoever at Hasbro is approving this stuff gives no craps.
Would you prefer that they cancelled it because a small number of people on the internet were loudly offended by it? Before you answer, remember that the world is absolutely full of right wing nutjobs who would happily engineer the rage-cancellation of all sorts of things that YOU like...
That's a false equivalence though considering it's the right wing nutjobs who've used this to harass, bully, dox and threaten numerous women in (and in several cases out of) the fandom.

I've had friends reduced to tears over this. I've had friends who had to lock their Twitter for weeks as people tried to find out where they lived and worked.

All in response to "This is a bad toy that we would personally rather not happen" tweets.

It's a toy that purposefully designed for the worst parts of fandom to wank over. Both side-isms can get in the fucking sea.

And that's without even getting into the fact it's completely inappropriate for the range it's a part of, which is otherwise extremely faithful renditions of the IDW character models.

If there was a Carbombya themed playset coming out in 2020, would you be be "Well, that should happen for the people that like it?" a KISS Players revival? A Romeo and Juliet Law Replica Card? When it does it reach the point of being unacceptable for an official Transformers product? I assume you're not down with them doing anything at all as long as there's one person who'd buy it.

A friend wrote a very eloquent blog piece on how this affected her that puts it all far better than I could. I'm going to have to wait to hear back from her that it's OK to share it because she very carefully doesn't mention it's about Windblade directly because she was afraid of term searchers finding it and starting the attacks again.

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Clay
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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Clay » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:52 pm

I have no idea what y'all are talking about so I'll go look up what a Windblade kit is.

...

That's an officially licensed product? Huh. I mean, it's not out of the scope weird, fetishistic fan art, but as an actual figure for commercial sale... yeesh.

Immediate thought is to compare it to Kiss Players, but I'm not sure it does. Kiss Players were creepy with their art and story context, but the actual figures were just little PVC baubles packaged with alternators. My point being that any given figure can repackaged with said figurines and new story context and suddenly be in weirdo territory while the primary draw is still the transformer figure*.

The windblade kit... huh. I've always argued for sexless/genderless robots in transformers because it makes them weirder, and that any attempt to make the characters gendered in personality for the sake of story will inherently give way for some (usually very vocal) fans to reduce them to physical sex stereotypes like pin-ups or macho men. This windblade kit seems to prove exactly that point.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that, out of all things, the Bay movie designs for Arcee(s) are some of my favorite because they're so abstract and resistant to sexualization. Of course, she/they're not really characters in that she/they barely cameo in the film, but that's beside the point.

*I do actually own the Kiss Players figures as I was an Alternator/Binaltech fanatic back in the day. Not actually sure what I did with the little figures, though...

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Warcry » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:13 am

inflatable dalek wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:28 pm
That's a false equivalence though considering it's the right wing nutjobs who've used this to harass, bully, dox and threaten numerous women in (and in several cases out of) the fandom.

I've had friends reduced to tears over this. I've had friends who had to lock their Twitter for weeks as people tried to find out where they lived and worked.
I feel awful hearing that, and I'm offended that it happened. But does that really have anything to do with whether or not the Windblade kit should be produced or not? Surely the flash mobs of Elliot Rodger worshipping incel neckbeard misogynists that attack anyone who dares to have an opinion and a vagina at the same time are the thing we should be upset about here, and not the distasteful titty robot? The model kit that they used as an excuse (and yes, for most of them that's all it was -- most of them only cared about it because it made feminists mad) should really be irrelevant to the conversation once the abuse starts up, and getting it cancelled would accomplish nothing.

And by the same token, people in this very thread have said they like the kit, and I'm pretty sure they're not planning to pleasure themselves to it while posting on Return of Kings. I might think they have bad taste, but that doesn't make them bad people. Should we denounce them anyway because some assholes like a thing they like?
inflatable dalek wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:28 pm
If there was a Carbombya themed playset coming out in 2020, would you be be "Well, that should happen for the people that like it?"
Honestly? My thoughts would probably be about the same as they were when I first saw this Windblade: "Dammit, that's a terrible idea. I really hope people don't buy this, so that they learn not to do it again."

I just do not have the energy to get genuinely angry about something as insignificant as toys.
inflatable dalek wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:28 pm
A friend wrote a very eloquent blog piece on how this affected her that puts it all far better than I could. I'm going to have to wait to hear back from her that it's OK to share it because she very carefully doesn't mention it's about Windblade directly because she was afraid of term searchers finding it and starting the attacks again.
If she's willing to let you share it, I would be interested in reading it.

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Skyquake87 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:29 am

Me too. Although I'm clearly a terrible person. As well as liking the Windblade kit, I also like those Ame-Comi statues (the big ones, the small ones are a bit rubbish) from 10 years or so ago. I picked up Steel recently and have Catwoman on the way (which I bought from a female seller on ebay...). Windblade just seems to me to be cut from the same cloth as these kinds of Japanese derived PVC statues, which is why I like it. They're just cute and I like the style. As I do with the Monster High Dolls I have. They likely do enforce gender stereotypes and all that, and I can't claim to be above that. I'm biologically male, for one thing and haven't managed to escape the shackles of the biological need to reproduce, so find females attractive. Sorry about that. But it hasn't turned me into a sex-pest or the sort of person that shouts down women from the safety of an anonymous user name on the internet, or in real life, because I know better than that. People are people. Some just have different genitals.

I don't think there's a good answer or a brilliant solution to this. I think the attitude of any kind of fandom can be utterly appalling, which is honestly why I sometimes have a hard time with geek culture. It invariably attracts people with some form of compulsion (and I absolutely count myself in with this, buying toys at may age, ffs), because for various reasons this 'thing' they hold onto has become their life and becomes extremely important and personal to them. When others criticise something they're so deeply into, it can be taken very personally and cause all kinds of excitement. The detachment from the subject that would normally put the breaks on being a dick to someone just isn't there. And of course, some people are just bloody rude anyway, and often show themselves up as such, to a greater or lesser extent. Magnified through the online shouting match that is the internet and the ability to hide behind an online identity which amplifies the excesses of your personality, these things are ten times worse. On a related note, this is one of the reasons I don't internet so much and refuse to work from home in the complaints role I do - I'm not having some valued customer cussing me out in my own home, thank you very much. I'd rather get covid.

Works both ways mind. I honestly just can't get worked up about things that happen with toys/ fiction/ media that I just don't like. Sure there's things I think could be done better, but I don't think that things I don't like shouldn't exist. I like that in the west, by and large, we have the ability to express and say all kinds of opinions and create all kinds of art or media that says different things. Some of those things you may not like and want to stamp out, because you feel it's morally repugnant. But doing that just makes things worse. The hardest thing is to understand things you don't like. I do find it sad that libertarians can be just as forthright and uncompromising as those at the opposite end of their spectrum, not realising they've fallen into the same 'trap' as the very things they stand against.

Or to put it another way; opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one. Unless you haven't, in which case, how do you poop?

I just wish people would be nice to each other. Like we are here.

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Clay
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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Clay » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:01 pm

Skyquake87 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:29 am

Or to put it another way; opinions are like arseholes. Everyone's got one. Unless you haven't, in which case, how do you poop?
My favorite variant is, "opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and they need to be evaluated by an expert if they're causing you problems, and an individual should probably listen to said expert if they say there's something wrong with it."

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Re: So I'm pretty much out of the fandom at this point

Post by Skyquake87 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:37 am

Ha! I like that. I'll have to remember that one.

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