Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens discussion thread NOW WITH SPOILERS NOW THE FILM IS OUT.

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Post by Summerhayes » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:15 am

SPOILER! (select to read)
It was a little odd, but right before Han said it, I knew his name was going to be Ben. I don't know what kind of sense it makes, but it does.
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Post by Denyer » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Went in with spoilers, thoroughly enjoyed it. It might have been the 3D on the showing we went to because the others were sold out but the retro styling worked out really well with a bit of fuzziness (without my actual glasses the effect was very mild 3D).

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Post by Skyquake87 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:54 pm

Tra-la! i have seen this and right enjoyed it. Probably the first SW film I've seen I didn't think was pap (part of my view on SW is having come to SW after the fact, having seen stuff like Aliens, Terminator and what have you first and found SW to be a bit ...silly by comparison). This is the film that's made me 'get' what the fuss is about. I loved the new guys, Rey and Finn. Rey in particular for being the first strong female lead in sci-fi probably since Ripley (is Daisy Ridley related to Keira Knightley, btw?). She was ace. And I liked Finn being all set to run away and stuffs....this is my 'ground floor', I think. BB8 was cute without being annoying.

I hope if we get to meet the big bald fella in the chair who's obviously evil (he has bad skin and mouldy eyes) he really is massive like that :D

Rylo Ben ... oh I nearly laughed when he took his hat off '-will he be hideously scarred?', no he just looks like he's had too many folk turn him down for a date. Kids, eh?

All that and lots of fun shooty space stuff, and a big daft death planet shooting out sunshine. Basically, FUN.

Except for Threepio. Seriously, Jar Jar gets a hard time when this tin t*** is flapping about the place with nothing useful or interesting to say other than his arm is red. Yes it is. Well done, And whoopee-do.

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Post by ganon578 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:32 pm

Do we need to 'SPOILER' everything now that we're 1+ weeks out and the title says that Spoilers are abound in this thing?

Hopefully not. I thought Threepio's arm thing was kind of forced since he mentions it and that's about it. It was kinda funny though that he jumps in between Han and Leia unexpectedly. In true Threepio style.
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Post by Sades » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:07 am

I'd say not, it's in the title, anyway.

We're seeing the movie tomorrow evening, hopefully. I was pretty "meh" about the whole thing until I came across more spoilers; now I'm really looking forward to seeing it. :up:
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Post by Hound » Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:15 am

Just got back and thought it was very good.

I was surprised by how much of the movie Harrison Ford was in and just how good he was in it. I expected relatively small cameos from Hamill, Fisher and Ford, so it was quite pleasant to get far more than I was expecting.

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Post by Warcry » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:42 am

Yeah, I agree about not spoilering this by now...

Finally saw this today. It's full of plot holes you could fly the Death Star through and what plot does make sense is ripped right from ANH, which by all rights should make it terrible, but it was lots of fun! Not sure it'll stand up at all to repeat viewing, though.

Ford was great I thought, not at all phoning it in like I'd suspected. Han's death was spoiled for me (by a crazy person making a racist diatribe about the movie including a black guy, of all things...) but he was so awesome once he appeared on screen that I forgot all about it until it was about to happen.

Rey was a real highlight for me, but Finn's character made no sense to me and I didn't care for him at all. He went from cowardly to brave and back so many times that I just didn't care by the time he decides to be an action hero. His backstory was cool, though.

And I agree with dalek that the bad guys sucked. Kylo Ren was a whiny emo bitch and not threatening at all even before he destroyed a wall in a childish temper tantrum. I suspect he went on to cut himself while sitting in the dark after the credits rolled. And that makes everyone else on his side look awful by association, especially Emperor Gollum.

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Post by ganon578 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:45 pm

I dunno, I was kind of intrigued by Kylo Ren. He surely is whiny (family lineage though?) but not a typical Star Wars villain we have seen before - incredibly powerful, skilled, and a complete threat. He's conflicted by the light side, and has significant trouble dealing with that, and he seems quite untrained. I think his instability makes him interesting. He loses to Rey and Finn, which I think may be his wake-up call for increasing his power and depth in the dark side. I saw him as more of a 'raw' bad guy who hasn't seen his full potential yet. It was interesting to see a bad guy that struggles with the pull of the good in him, not the good guy that is pulled to the bad.

Rey was really good. Finn was not quite there, but I liked him anyways. I hope he grows in Episode VIII. You're right though, for a guy who trained as a soldier, he flips between brave and scared a lot. I really liked Poe a lot more than I anticipated.

I'm hoping to go see it again in the next week or so. I don't know if my opinions will change.
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Post by Warcry » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:13 pm

ganon578 wrote:I dunno, I was kind of intrigued by Kylo Ren. He surely is whiny (family lineage though?) but not a typical Star Wars villain we have seen before - incredibly powerful, skilled, and a complete threat. He's conflicted by the light side, and has significant trouble dealing with that, and he seems quite untrained. I think his instability makes him interesting. He loses to Rey and Finn, which I think may be his wake-up call for increasing his power and depth in the dark side. I saw him as more of a 'raw' bad guy who hasn't seen his full potential yet. It was interesting to see a bad guy that struggles with the pull of the good in him, not the good guy that is pulled to the bad.
When you write it down like that I can see the attraction, but on screen it just didn't work for me. If he'd been more accomplished around those flashes of vulnerability I think it would have carried off better, but the way he was shown I'm not entirely sure why anyone is afraid of him or listens to what he has to say. Though General What'shisname basically ignored him at all turns, so obviously he agrees with me!

Honestly though, I think the main problem is that he just doesn't fit the narrative. The movie tries so hard to be A New Hope-redux, but the main villain calls back more to the whiny prequel Anakin that nobody liked.
ganon578 wrote:Finn was not quite there, but I liked him anyways. I hope he grows in Episode VIII. You're right though, for a guy who trained as a soldier, he flips between brave and scared a lot.
Where it really doesn't work for me is that Finn was apparently brainwashed since infancy to be a killing machine. Surely the troops get a lot of training and evaluation in that time. I'm not sure how he could have made it through all of that and still piss himself the first time he sees action. He should have been screened out and reassigned as a tech or some other, non-front line job if stormies are really the badass best of the best like has always been implied.

If he'd decided to desert because of moral outrage over the slaughter of all those civilians, that I could understand. But the actor didn't play it that way at all. He was all cold sweats and overblown terrified facial expressions until after they were off the Star Destroyer.
ganon578 wrote:I really liked Poe a lot more than I anticipated.
Yeah, Poe was super-cool even though he was in quite a bit less of the movie than I'd expected. I'd expected him to be Lando-tier but he was closer to Wedge.

On another note, Leia fit the "wise old general" role way better than I thought she would. She's not quite as awesome as Rieekan but way cooler than Dodonna, Madine or Ackbar ever were.

Speaking of Ackbar, am I the only one who thought that he looked younger here than in Return of the Jedi? I'd actually assumed it was some other Mon Calamari until I saw it was credited as Ackbar.

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Post by Skyquake87 » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:00 pm

Warcry wrote:Though General What'shisname basically ignored him at all turns, so obviously he agrees with me!
I loved this guy - clearly seething that their careful plans are going t*ts up at every turn because 'mister-ooh-look-at-me-i've-got-the-force-and-a-silly-mask' has a "better" idea...! :lol:

The First Order would probably have got the job done, were it not for Ben Darkside! Overruled by the idiot in charge at head office...brilliant :p

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Post by inflatable dalek » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:09 pm

Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.

It's a shame that, like Return and Phantom Menace (I can't remember if the other Prequels do the same) they felt compelled to return to the "Blow up the big thing in space" ending. It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.
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Post by Warcry » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:17 pm

Skyquake87 wrote:I loved this guy - clearly seething that their careful plans are going t*ts up at every turn because 'mister-ooh-look-at-me-i've-got-the-force-and-a-silly-mask' has a "better" idea...! :lol:
It really goes to show how low Ren's status is in the First Order, too. Can you imagine Vader standing there and taking it while Piet or Veers or Jerjerrod or one of the other legion of interchangeable nobodies under his command shit-talked him to the Emperor and contradicted his plans while he was in the room? They'd be on the receiving end of a Force-choke before they got the second sentence out.

But the main problem, as dalek says...
inflatable dalek wrote:Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.
...was that nobody else on the bad side was any better. The general seemed to know what was up, but he was so unimportant that I don't think he even got named on-screen. And Phasma was no better, only getting about three lines in a vain attempt to manufacture her as the next Boba Fett-style do-nothing-who-becomes-a-merchandising-hit.

If there was someone, anyone on Team Evil who was even remotely competent or threatening, then Ren's pouting wouldn't be nearly so annoying. Really, he needed to be the second-in-command or designated attack dog of the movie's true villain (no, a hologram of Replacement Palpatine doesn't count) so that he had room to grow without completely scuppering any sense of menace that the bad guys had.
inflatable dalek wrote:It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.
I think they felt obliged since the film had lifted all of ANH's plot to that point, but you're right. It would have worked a lot better without. The stupidly-huge Death Star ripoff never actually felt like a threat because (in spite of blowing up several planets) it never actually hurt any of the characters we're supposed to root for. Nuking Alderaan in the original was a gut-punch because it tore Leia's heart out, but I honestly couldn't even tell you the name of the place that got turned into an asteroid belt here. Rey's rescue, keeping Luke's location from the baddies and Han trying to redeem his son were all way more interesting and compelling plotlines. Unfortunately, I guess they decided that none of those were sufficiently a "blockbuster" way to end the movie.

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Post by Heinrad » Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:18 am

Went and saw it today, and loved it. Despite having to deal with the audience. It was great fun.
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Post by ganon578 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:54 pm

Warcry wrote:Honestly though, I think the main problem is that he just doesn't fit the narrative. The movie tries so hard to be A New Hope-redux, but the main villain calls back more to the whiny prequel Anakin that nobody liked.
Hey, it runs in the family. Watching ANH recently, Luke is pretty damn whiny too. Not Padawan Anakin whiny, but whiny. Why is Leia the only Skywalker to have her shit together?
Warcry wrote:On another note, Leia fit the "wise old general" role way better than I thought she would. She's not quite as awesome as Rieekan but way cooler than Dodonna, Madine or Ackbar ever were.
Saw it a second time over the weekend, and I really liked Leia in this role. She played a fantastic part.
Warcry wrote:Speaking of Ackbar, am I the only one who thought that he looked younger here than in Return of the Jedi? I'd actually assumed it was some other Mon Calamari until I saw it was credited as Ackbar.
I heard the voice and knew it was Ackbar. I don't know how Mon Cals age, but I see what you mean.
inflatable dalek wrote:Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.
I didn't really care for General Hux on the first viewing. I saw him as coming a bit over the top screaming at everyone and really trying to assert dominance. On the second go, I liked him a bit more.
inflatable dalek wrote:It's a shame that, like Return and Phantom Menace (I can't remember if the other Prequels do the same) they felt compelled to return to the "Blow up the big thing in space" ending. It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.
It's funny that 4 out of the 7 movies are 'blow up the giant space thing'. Hopefully there won't be any more rehashes of that story in VIII & IX. The ones that don't end in a trench run are actually pretty entertaining endings. With ANH being the first movie, it's easy to see the Death Star run as a last ditch effort to save the day on impossible odds, which also served as a huge sigh of relief for moviegoers. ROTJ basically did the same with a good lightsaber duel thrown in. TPM's was shoe-horned in - this is my least favorite of the bunch since kid Anakin stumbles his way inside and accidently pulls the trigger while aimed at the most important part of the ship. Why couldn't they just have the Naboo version of Poe Dameron do this? TFA really crams it in, which I didn't much care for, but at least they joke about it a bit.
Warcry wrote:It really goes to show how low Ren's status is in the First Order, too. Can you imagine Vader standing there and taking it while Piet or Veers or Jerjerrod or one of the other legion of interchangeable nobodies under his command shit-talked him to the Emperor and contradicted his plans while he was in the room? They'd be on the receiving end of a Force-choke before they got the second sentence out.
I took it as a little bit different dynamic, especially on the second viewing. At first, I had the same impression as you did, but there's a couple lines of dialog between Hux and Ren that suggests they are essentially equal ranking from different sides (Hux as the military commander, Ren as the force-user). Kylo has a few lines of dialog in the movie that suggest he ultimately outranks Hux since he's Snoke's apprentice.

But alas, I agree with you and don't see Vader just standing there and taking it. Even if he chokes someone he's not supposed to, I don't he would worry about it.
Warcry wrote:But the main problem, as dalek says...

...was that nobody else on the bad side was any better. The general seemed to know what was up, but he was so unimportant that I don't think he even got named on-screen. And Phasma was no better, only getting about three lines in a vain attempt to manufacture her as the next Boba Fett-style do-nothing-who-becomes-a-merchandising-hit.

If there was someone, anyone on Team Evil who was even remotely competent or threatening, then Ren's pouting wouldn't be nearly so annoying. Really, he needed to be the second-in-command or designated attack dog of the movie's true villain (no, a hologram of Replacement Palpatine doesn't count) so that he had room to grow without completely scuppering any sense of menace that the bad guys had.
My hope is that ultimately Ren will become that villain. He seems really green in this movie as a baddie. We still don't know how far along he was in his training before he turned. All the other dark side villains to this point have had a significant amount of training and are rather composed: Palpatine was evil since the beginning of time, Darth Maul was trained as a Sith from a young age, Dooku was a fully trained Jedi Knight and politician (for lack of a better term) with years of experience before joining the dark side, and Anakin was a war-hardened Knight and nearly Master by the time Palpatine turned him. All of those guys seem to have much more discipline than Kylo Ren, which at this point seems his biggest fault. Snoke says at the end of the film that he needs to complete Ren's training. Hopefully that, coupled with his failure with Rey throughout will temper him into a massive bad guy.
Warcry wrote:I think they felt obliged since the film had lifted all of ANH's plot to that point, but you're right. It would have worked a lot better without. The stupidly-huge Death Star ripoff never actually felt like a threat because (in spite of blowing up several planets) it never actually hurt any of the characters we're supposed to root for. Nuking Alderaan in the original was a gut-punch because it tore Leia's heart out, but I honestly couldn't even tell you the name of the place that got turned into an asteroid belt here. Rey's rescue, keeping Luke's location from the baddies and Han trying to redeem his son were all way more interesting and compelling plotlines. Unfortunately, I guess they decided that none of those were sufficiently a "blockbuster" way to end the movie.
Agreed. The only point I see of the Starkiller Base sequence, is to entirely wipe out the major players in the New Republic. The First Order succeeded in that regard, but the emotional impact isn't seen in TFA. We don't even get to know what planets those were, and who really is there when they're destroyed. That whole sequence, while cool, was really anticlimactic to me, even though billions lost lives and the Republic is essentially DOA.
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Post by ganon578 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:09 pm

Oh, another thought I had - Kylo Ren's lightsaber. According to a Force Awakens visual dictionary published by DK Books, his lightsaber is designed as such because it utilizes a cracked kyber crystal. The crossguard on the lightsaber is actually a vent for the cracked crystal, as to allow excess energy to be expelled. The ragged form of the blade is also due in part to the crystal's nature.

If the red blades of the dark side are typically produced by synthetic crystals, why would Ren's be cracked? My theory is that along with Vader's helmet, Ren secured Vader's Sith lightsaber - it would have fallen in a chasm when Luke severed Vader's hand at the end of VI - so it would have been possibly damaged after the fall. That could explain it...
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Post by Clay » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:10 pm

Apropos.
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Post by inflatable dalek » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:51 pm

He's also really good at killing unarmed pensioners standing very still right in front of him.
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Post by ganon578 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:07 pm

Clay wrote:Apropos.
THIS.
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Post by dura » Thu May 19, 2016 11:55 pm

I don't like how they killed off Han Solo.

You don't know where this new villain comes from. Didn't "Return of the Jedi" definitively show that the Dark side and the Empire were defeated?

What's with them being rebels again?

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Post by Cyberstrike nTo » Fri May 20, 2016 12:36 am

dura wrote:I don't like how they killed off Han Solo.

You don't know where this new villain comes from. Didn't "Return of the Jedi" definitively show that the Dark side and the Empire were defeated?

What's with them being rebels again?
The reasons was because:
1) It shows that Kylo Ren and the First Order are serious bad guys.

2) Harrison Ford had been wanting Han Solo to die since The Empire Strikes Back because he felt that Solo had nothing more to offer the series.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Kylo Ren is the son of Han Solo and General Leia who Luke tried to train as a Jedi and Snoke turned him to the Dark Side.


As too who Snoke and The First Order are I guess we'll find out in Star Wars 8. Although the First Order seem like a bunch of Imperial wannabes.

The Dark Side can never truly been defeated it is part of the Star Wars Universe and part of us, the best we can do is too try and have a balance between our dark and light sides.

The Resistance and the First Order are fighting in the Outer Rim which is basically the rough equivalent of the nowhere. My GUESS until the First Order blew up that planet I would guess that few people out side of the Senate knew anything about it.
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