Why didn't the Decepticons slag the Autobots when they awoke?

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:52 am

Originally posted by Vash Stampede

plus i think

Unlikely, fukwit.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:02 pm

Originally posted by Vash Stampede
they could of rebuilt the autobots bodies into something useful for the cause!
plus i think megatron's way fuking betta than that numbskull Galvatron!

Except that Galvatron could fire himself unaided...

Prowl1984 · Post by **Prowl1984** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:40 pm

megatron idiot thing...um i'll admit he was a little slow, like letting the autobots use two of cybertrons moons as a staging ground for an invasion, knowing full well that they were there, with very few autobots populating the bases, and those that were there seemed to have plastic armour on... hmm...

all the while he had the entire decepticon army at his disposal on cybertron...

Interceptor · Post by **Interceptor** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:41 am

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Except that Galvatron could fire himself unaided...

So could Megatron. He did it like, seven times in Season One alone. It was probably just easier to let somebody else fire him like a 'real' gun.

Arcee · Post by **Arcee** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:55 pm

Originally posted by Vash Stampede
plus i think megatron's way fuking betta

Megatron is this?

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:50 pm

Hello!

I will have to disagree with the comments made in that link above that all refer to the actions around Megatron's quote in the movie.

"When we slip by their early warning systems in their own shuttle and destroy Autobot city, the Autobots will be vanquished forever!"

Think about it. Optimus Prime is sending Ironhide and co. to Earth to get Energon Cubes because they are low. But this does not mean they are too weak to defend, just to weak to launch a full-scale assault. Plus, there are still whatever defences that exist on the Moonbases plus the Dinobots must be there because they arrive with Optimus Prime later.

So, Megatron knows that destroying Autobot City on Earth will pretty much cut off any escape route for the Autobots plus cut off their supply of Energon, which must be stored in the city if that is where Ironhide is supposed to get it from.

Megatron wants to weaken them before the final assault to ensure their destruction. He fully intends to attack the Moonbases but only after the Autobots are fatally weakened. This is sound military logic. It is not wise to attack at your enemies' strongest point, but at their weakest point.

As for Megatron being an idiot. Well, of course they have to portray the bad guy as an idiot. They wouldn't want people to like him, right? But think about it. Megatron inspires fear in all those around him. He has ruled the Decepticons for millions of years. He is powerfull, cunning and ruthless. You don't get that far and inspire that kind of fear and respect if you are an idiot.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:52 pm

Originally posted by Wolfkin
As for Megatron being an idiot. Well, of course they have to portray the bad guy as an idiot. They wouldn't want people to like him, right?

Originally posted by Wolfkin
But think about it. Megatron inspires fear in all those around him. He has ruled the Decepticons for millions of years. He is powerfull, cunning and ruthless. You don't get that far and inspire that kind of fear and respect if you are an idiot.

You can, if all the others are even bigger idiots.

onearmedrich · Post by **onearmedrich** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:43 pm

PLenty of idiots inspire fear, Bush, Cheney, Rice all scare me senseless, all are idiots.

NoiseTerrorist · Post by **NoiseTerrorist** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:27 am

If i was skywarp i would have iced everyone while they we inactive and lived happily ever after

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:45 am

Why would the Decepticons have hated Starscream being their leader? Sure, he's a braggart, but unlike a certain handgun-moron with a bedpan for a head, he actually had the intelligence to realize you should kill your enemies, especially when they're at a disadvantage. Even at the very beginning:

"Let's just blow them away; they've seen us!"
"No! I want to see what they're after!"

Who CARES what they're after?! You kill them, the war ends. Then you can find new power supplies at your leisure, instead of the war being decided by who can find a new energy source first.

And let's face it, a braggart leader isn't quite so annoying if he can get results. It's a lot less irksome than hearing Megatron's "Decepticons Retreat!" and the various "I'll shall be avenged for this!" lines.

But of course, if Screamer had taken charge of things, he wouldn't have made Megatron's dumb mistakes, he'd have killed the autobots when they were at a disadvantage, and that means there's no show then.

Oh, and I must point out that Starscream's gun blasted that big, tough, moronic do-gooder Skyfire in Fire on the Mountain and put him out of commission indefinitely. He wasn't even trying to either; Thundercracker ducked out of the way. It seems that Starscream's lasers only function as Null Rays whenever someone mentions aloud that he has Null Rays "Starscream, activate the Null Ray!", "My Null Ray will take care of you!", "Starscream's Null Ray has stabilized Red Alert.", ect. Otherwise they're the standard Decepticon jet lasers.

And the Autobot City attack was the stupidest plan ever, for the following reasons:

- The autobot's best warriors, namely Prime and the Dinobots, are on the Moonbases. Better warriors, but fewer warriors. Warriors who's deaths would have the most impact upon the autobots, especially when compounded with the loss of the Autobot Matrix of Plot Devices, er, Leadership.

- The moonbases aren't complete yet, with many exposed areas and clearly weak defenses. Autobot City however is complete and has strong defenses that weathered the Con attack all day and into the next morning.

- Autobot city also definitely has better energy supplies. Yeah, Prime has some energy there, but it's obvious that Autobot City has far more energy resources, being that they're on earth and that they've got a dam right at the city that is most likely rigged for hydroelectric power.

- Autobot city most likely doesn't have any shuttles. If they did, wouldn't the autobots just send a covert signal to deploy a supply ship instead of launching a spacecraft that can be more easily detected and attacked? We've only ever seen two shuttles in the movie, Ironhide's and Primes, the former of which probably had its' gaping hole repaired during the clean-up/rebuild time. Given the lack of shuttles, an assault on the moonbases would have been absolutely devastating, since there's no hope of reinforcements. You can't say that they could have used Omega Supreme or Skyfire, because Autobot city would have summoned them for help during the battle then. Those two had probably died in the intervening years, which is why we never saw them ever again. And even if there are shuttles on earth, those flimsy moonbases will definitely not weather an assault long enough for help to save the day. Autobot City barely did so.

- Cybertron itself can be used as the staging grounds for a moonbase attack. Cybertron obviously must have weapons systems of its' own and they can be used to soften things up before the first strike. In the event of a Con needing more energy, he falls back to Cybertron for a quick refueling and swings around for another attack without needing interstellar spacecraft. It also means even more troops can be used in the battle, since they don't have to be left behind as a skeleton crew on Cybertron. There's nobody else to attack the planet. Even if there somehow were, Megs could have called in a full retreat the moment the enemy was spotted and gotten back home well in advance.

- Also, the attack on Autobot city has risks for Cybertron. Imagine if the Cons returned from a successful strike on earth only to be unwittingly ambushed themselves. While they were on earth, the Autobots launched their attack on the nearly empty planet, wiped out the skeleton crew, and took it. Now, they've moved all their resources to the planet itself, plus all of Cybertron's resources can be used by them as well. Astrotrain and his passengers could be blown clean out of the sky upon re-entry without ever knowing what happened.

And as for the stupidity of Megatron... use the Search feature to look up the words "Megatron" and "Dumbass" and you'll find plenty of concise discussion of why he was the worst leader ever. Probably a lot of them by me. There is no need for him to be a moron, neither for the good guys to win (they should win because they are superior in intelligence or guile, or something) nor for people to hate him (he should be reviled because he's a villain that does horrible things.) See Beast Wars Megatron for an example of what a true bad guy should be.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:09 pm

Originally posted by Interceptor
So could Megatron. He did it like, seven times in Season One alone. It was probably just easier to let somebody else fire him like a 'real' gun.

As far as I'm aware, the only time Megs is definately seen to fire himself unaided was the season one title sequence, and title sequences aren't cannon... Accepting them as such is just one step away from saying the Transformers are constantly being followed about by a giant spining Autobot/Decepticon logo

Originally posted by Snake
You can't say that they could have used Omega Supreme or Skyfire, because Autobot city would have summoned them for help during the battle then.

Omega was in at least one post movie episode (Big Broadcast of 2006), and Skyfire was loitering about in the background of a Headmasters episode (which isn't really conclusive though as half the dead charecters were in the Japanese shows). Omega was probably taking his two weeks in Cyprus during the movie.

Interceptor · Post by **Interceptor** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:34 pm

I just got Season One DVD collection. He did it several times. Off the top of my head, I can remember him doing it once, just plain jane, transforming, and firing himself. The other time, he stayed normal size, latched onto Starscream, and fired himself as Starscream flew around.

By the way, the word is C-A-N-O-N, like Church canon.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:47 pm

Originally posted by Interceptor
I just got Season One DVD collection. He did it several times. Off the top of my head, I can remember him doing it once, just plain jane, transforming, and firing himself. The other time, he stayed normal size, latched onto Starscream, and fired himself as Starscream flew around.

The latter is hardly definative (Starscream could be firing him in the same way he does his wing mounted guns), and I just can't remember the former (except it does sound like the bit in the title sequence). Do you know what the episode was? Not to doubt you, I'm just currious and want to refresh my memory.

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:11 pm

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
Omega was in at least one post movie episode (Big Broadcast of 2006), and Skyfire was loitering about in the background of a Headmasters episode (which isn't really conclusive though as half the dead charecters were in the Japanese shows). Omega was probably taking his two weeks in Cyprus during the movie.

Such appearances don't prove much of anything. Hell, in the movie, we clearly saw Skywarp and Thundercracker at Starscream's coronation, despite having been changed into new characters in the previous scene. The production staff was never that serious in preventing such mistakes.

And anyway, even if it wasn't a mistake and he was supposed to be alive, that's ridiculous; Omega would never leave his post of guarding a remote, empty lot for something as trivial as a vacation.

Then again, I did once advance the theory that Omega Supreme was contacted for help and simply refused to answer, given how his talents were wasted guarding aforementioned remote, empty lot.

Interceptor · Post by **Interceptor** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:22 pm

Originally posted by inflatable dalek
The latter is hardly definative (Starscream could be firing him in the same way he does his wing mounted guns), and I just can't remember the former (except it does sound like the bit in the title sequence). Do you know what the episode was? Not to doubt you, I'm just currious and want to refresh my memory.

I'm not 100% sure which episode, I'll see if I can't find it...but I KNOW it was not just in the title sequence.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:53 pm

Originally posted by Snake
And anyway, even if it wasn't a mistake and he was supposed to be alive, that's ridiculous; Omega would never leave his post of guarding a remote, empty lot for something as trivial as a vacation.

But it wasn't a small background role Omega had in Big Broadcast, it was a large featured speaking part where he was refered to by name... Perhaps he was promoted from guarding the empty lot to guarding the worthless planet of junk?

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:34 am

Hello Snake!

You put up a very convincing argument, however, there are several deep flaws in your logic that kill this very same argument. Plus the fact that you contradict yourself on several points. Allow me to explain this a little further.

Optimus Prime himself stated that there were not enough Energon Cubes to power a full scale assault. The narrative states that the Autobots were preparing to retake Cybertron on secret staging grounds on two of Cybertron’s moons. I wonder what makes you think that the Moonbases were incomplete and without defences? They are secret staging grounds, they are not going to have their armament out in plain site. The Moonbases are secret but the Decepticons do know about them. The Autobots seem to be using them as an assembly area for an attack on Cybertron. They seem to have quite enough equipment and such on them to be complete. But, there are not enough Energon Cubes and clearly not enough Autobots. These are on Autobot City on Earth.

The Autobots on the Moonbases are low on Energon but it is clear that the Moonbases are complete and do have defences. These defences do not need Energon, only the Autobots do.

You mention that Cybertron has defences and weapons of its own then you mention the weak number of Autobots and the incomplete Moonbases being capable of taking Cybertron while the Decepticons are attacking Autobot City on Earth. Is this not a contradiction in terms! Well, with the Autobots low on Energon and the defences on Cybertron that you yourself mention, this was not a possibility. They could not have attacked Cybertron and Megatron knew this. He knew, as did Optimus Prime himself, that this was not possible. Megatron could take the Moonbases later, at his own leisure, after Autobot City was taken. This would weaken the Autobots, cut off their supply and also distract them.

The defences on Cybertron, like the defences on the Moonbases, are quite formidable. Suggesting that they could be easily taken contradict the idea that they are strong. They would require time, Autobot troops and plenty of Energon for the Autobot troops. Key word here is Energon.

Even with the Decepticons attacking Autobot City, what did the Autobots do? Attack Cybertron like you suggest? No, they moved against the Decepticon attack so obviously Autobot City was very important to them. Instead of going after Cybertron the Autobots reacted by going to Earth, so it is obvious that Megatron was correct in thinking that Cybertron was safe. There were two groups of Autobots: the ones on the Moonbases who were too weak to attack Cybertron and the ones on Autobot City who could not attack if they were being attacked themselves.

Taking Autobot City left the Moonbases at their weakest with no Energon source. Taking the Moonbases and leaving Autobot City would leave an escape route and destination open and an Energon source.

Why do you say that there were only two shuttles? Why would Autobot City not have shuttles? Ironhide’s shuttle had a hole blown in it, then it caught on fire when Hot Rod fired at it. The Decepticons then jumped out of it to attack, flying to the city under their own power. More than likely the shuttle did a flaming crash landing and was destroyed because it is clear that the Decepticons did not land it in the way that a shuttle was intended to be landed. I do not understand why you would think that this was one of the two shuttles seen later as the Autobots were shipping out. One could have been Optimus Prime’s shuttle and one could have been a shuttle that was already there.

More than likely Autobot City had its own shuttles and the Moonbases had their own. Suggesting that the Moonbases were very important, had the only shuttles and were the most important target, like you do, contradict the idea that they were incomplete and with weak defences as you also suggest.

The situation is that of a stalemate. The Decepticons can not take out the Moonbases until they can find a weak point or something. The Autobots can not take Cybertron until they get Energon and formulate a plan. The situation needs an alternative. Namely, Autobot City. I am not saying that this was the best decision, hell I would have waited for the Autobots to make a move and then countered it, but it would have been better than taking the Moonbases at that time. Take the Moonbases later. Autobot City is just a City, the Moonbases are Moons. They are quite larger plus there are two of them, perhaps one cannot comprehend the size of them. Sure they are smaller than Cybertron but they are still large. What will the one Moonbase do while the other is being attacked? Do we attack them at the same time or one after the other? Attacking at the same time means we can not concentrate our forces but attacking them one after the other leaves us open to the other one. You see, there are a whole lot of problems involved in taking the Moonbases.

I am also not saying that Megatron was the best leader but he was not an idiot either. You want good leaders look up names like Guderian, Patton, Manstein and Rommel. I do not think that Megatron’s character was written in a way that it should have been. He was meant to be strong, cunning and ruthless. All of that “Decepticon’s retreat!” and “I will be avenged!” I find annoying as well but in the movie he did seem to be of better character than the cartoons. Have a look at the biography:

http://tfarchive.com/comics/genone/univ ... gatron.php

Anyway, your opinion and mine, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:00 am

Hello Snake!

You put up a very convincing argument, however, there are several deep flaws in your logic that kill this very same argument. Plus the fact that you contradict yourself on several points. Allow me to explain this a little further.

Optimus Prime himself stated that there were not enough Energon Cubes to power a full scale assault. The narrative states that the Autobots were preparing to retake Cybertron on secret staging grounds on two of Cybertron’s moons. I wonder what makes you think that the Moonbases were incomplete and without defences? They are secret staging grounds, they are not going to have their armament out in plain site. The Moonbases are secret but the Decepticons do know about them. The Autobots seem to be using them as an assembly area for an attack on Cybertron. They seem to have quite enough equipment and such on them to be complete. But, there are not enough Energon Cubes and clearly not enough Autobots. These are on Autobot City on Earth.

One thing up front: I'm just trying to make the best sense of what is going on, given what there is. A lot of the dialogue is a matter of interpretation. It may seem like they're saying one thing, but it doesn't sync with what can be seen. And then there's the stuff that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and simply cannot be explained. The very best example of this is the massive Con army during Unicron's attack. If we're going to assume it's only what we see, with no rationalizations, then the issue is over already because the original conditions no longer apply. There were dozens upon dozens of Decepticons in those few shots. Enough for Megs to divide and use to destroy Autobot City and both moonbases at once with 0 causualties. There's no real point in discussing the what-ifs and capabilities now; his plan of using just 19 decepticons (not counting the cassettes) to attack autobot city is a super-blunder with such huge reserves. But rather do that, I'll just consider those scenes to be a mistake on the animator's part. I mean, I hate Megatron, he's big dumbass, but even he isn't so stupid as to not use such a huge legion of Cons.

Down to brass tacks...

Now, first off, there's the presence of heavy manufacturing equipment. I'd say these staging grounds are yet to be completed because the machines were still cranking away on building various items. It comes down to what those items are... are they personal weapons and equipment or weapons and defensive systems for the moonbase. I would say the latter, since the former makes no sense. There is absolutely no advantage to hauling the equipment and the materials for it out to the moonbases just to build laser rifles It's just the opposite in fact; it would be far easier to make them on Earth and ship them there instead. Less bulk, less transports, and less time spent on the moons before the war begins, which means less chance of being caught. Here's a good explanation; the autobots are extracting metals from the moon itself and processing it into the things they need for their moonbase. A very good idea in light of that construction of things like laser rifles doesn't have to occur there, construction of the moonbase must occur on the moon. Sure, you could say it's prefabbed, but that would require lots of transports, each one a risk of blowing cover for the whole operation.

On-site fabrication from the moon's metals requires only the transport of the manufacturing equipment itself, which is far less bulky than all the materials for the base surrounding it. Given that they're still fabricating various things, the possibility that it is still under construction is there.

Also consider there is absolutely no mention of the troops back on earth, no orders for Ironhide, nothing. This is no small mistake; troops are the core of any military strike. All the gear in the world does no good without personel to use it. But not a single word about them. Unless we're willing to believe it is open to interpretation, Prime must be about to storm Cybertron with numbers inferior to his enemies, and of course, that's compounded by the fact Cons are generally more powerful than the autobots 1 on 1. He's stationing the other half of his forces on earth for, well, no particular reason. No wonder he said "... and a lot of luck." Such absurdity/stupidity is too out-of-character for Prime. The alternative is that he's not bothering with the soldiers because it's not time yet because the base isn't finished yet.

Of course, the real problem in the end is that we're expanding and speculating in areas never considered for a second by the writers. They weren't aimed at providing sensible explanation for what the autobots were about to do; the energon bit was just an excuse to get a few autobots killed and a way to sneak-attack autobot city. Couldn't they have been more considerate of what we're discussing here today back when they wrote the flick in 1985?!

The Autobots on the Moonbases are low on Energon but it is clear that the Moonbases are complete and do have defences. These defences do not need Energon, only the Autobots do.

Something must power them, though I don't recall saying energon must be the deciding factor for them. Though how are the autobots supposed to weather such an attack if they're so low on energon? Autobot City, clearly having a stock of energon and managing to transform into battle mode just before it was too late, was ripped to shreds anyway and everybody there thought they were doomed. Why would powerless bases that are designed to help attack Cybertron, not defend attacks from it, fair any better?

You mention that Cybertron has defences and weapons of its own then you mention the weak number of Autobots and the incomplete Moonbases being capable of taking Cybertron while the Decepticons are attacking Autobot City on Earth. Is this not a contradiction in terms!

Nope; there's a difference between a full-scale-assault against all enemy troops and a smaller-scale assault against a skeleton crew (namely Shockwave.)

Well, with the Autobots low on Energon and the defences on Cybertron that you yourself mention, this was not a possibility. They could not have attacked Cybertron and Megatron knew this. He knew, as did Optimus Prime himself, that this was not possible. Megatron could take the Moonbases later, at his own leisure, after Autobot City was taken. This would weaken the Autobots, cut off their supply and also distract them.

Slaying their leader and the best warriors with numerical superiority and an entire planet as a springboard is a more effective, not to mention far safer way. There is no weakening; they are defeated if the moonbases fall since the most powerful autobots are wiped-out and there's no matrix to create a new, enhanced leader. We've seen Ultra Magnus' leadership, or lack thereof. And the most important element is that it would be less risky.

The defences on Cybertron, like the defences on the Moonbases, are quite formidable. Suggesting that they could be easily taken contradict the idea that they are strong. They would require time, Autobot troops and plenty of Energon for the Autobot troops. Key word here is Energon.

The key phrase here is "Skeleton Crew". You think it would be that difficult when almost every Decepticon is on Earth? Not likely...

Even with the Decepticons attacking Autobot City, what did the Autobots do? Attack Cybertron like you suggest? No, they moved against the Decepticon attack so obviously Autobot City was very important to them. Instead of going after Cybertron the Autobots reacted by going to Earth, so it is obvious that Megatron was correct in thinking that Cybertron was safe.

No, that was the typical autobot goody-goody selfessness(Tactical suicide is the phrase I'd use.) Like when Prime shielded the humans from an explosion with his body in Divide and Conquer. They're not going to let their fellow autobots down like that.

And safe only because they found out about the attack on Earth and went there, which was bad news for the Cons I might add. Had they not been contacted, they might have decided to attack Cybertron upon discovering it was virtually deserted. You don't get much more luck than having almost every Decepticon leave the planet.

There were two groups of Autobots: the ones on the Moonbases who were too weak to attack Cybertron and the ones on Autobot City who could not attack if they were being attacked themselves.

But that assumes Cybertron is beyond the capabilities of moonbase I even with almost all of the Decepticons over on Earth. Somehow, I fail to buy it.

Taking Autobot City left the Moonbases at their weakest with no Energon source. Taking the Moonbases and leaving Autobot City would leave an escape route and destination open and an Energon source.

Wiping out the moonbases makes the energon source and escape route irrelevant because there will be nobody left alive to use them. It also insures there are no more autobot leaders. At least competent ones, with the loss of the matrix. Take out the leader and the rest shall fall. And more importantly, it is much safer to attack a staging ground, basically a supply depot for an attack on Cybertron, than city that can turn into a genuine battlestation.

Why do you say that there were only two shuttles? Why would Autobot City not have shuttles? Ironhide’s shuttle had a hole blown in it, then it caught on fire when Hot Rod fired at it. The Decepticons then jumped out of it to attack, flying to the city under their own power. More than likely the shuttle did a flaming crash landing and was destroyed because it is clear that the Decepticons did not land it in the way that a shuttle was intended to be landed. I do not understand why you would think that this was one of the two shuttles seen later as the Autobots were shipping out. One could have been Optimus Prime’s shuttle and one could have been a shuttle that was already there.

Because there were never more than two shuttles ever seen, so I see it as perfectly plausible. Oh, and The Ark was deemed salvagable in MTMTE; it was only the return of the Cons that prevented it. Repairing the shuttle would be possible, not to mention common sense; what if the Cons return? Remember, the autobots can only guess how many Cons were lost in the battle and they can't say how long it would take to repair, refuel, and return for another strike... except it would definitely take longer to rebuild Autobot City.

More than likely Autobot City had its own shuttles and the Moonbases had their own. Suggesting that the Moonbases were very important, had the only shuttles and were the most important target, like you do, contradict the idea that they were incomplete and with weak defences as you also suggest.

Which begs the question "why send a shuttle out for supplies? Why not request a supply shuttle launch from earth?" No round trip and the Cons won't be able to attack it. That would be possible since the autobots could wait until the side of the moon not facing cybertron and earth align and use the terminator effect to prevent any signals from reaching Cybertron. Definitely something they could exploit, since the moons' orbits can be seen to be very quick, allowing many chances for secret communications.

Your line about the moonbases' importance versus their strength makes no sense. Targets are not ranked as important due to their strengths and weaknesses; it relies on their relation to acheieving your objectives. The most heavily defended military base in the world can be a worthless target if its' loss will not affect the outcome of the war. And killing Prime and dinobots, plus destroying the matrix, will most definitely affect the outcome of the war.

And the presence of shuttles is equally irrelevant when determining the moonbase's tactical capabilities. It would matter in regards to target importance if one of your objectives was to cripple the enemy's mobility, for example. But what ships are docked has no effect on the level of your tactical capabilities.

Oh, and moonbase one was the most important target because it contained the autobot's best warriors, the Dinobots, and their leader. Taking them out, as opposed to Autobot City, is what as known as the "decapitation strategy." You know, "Take out the leader and the rest shall fall?" Without the matrix to empower them, autobots make poor leaders. Optimus even admitted he relied heavily upon the matrix in TRoOP.

The situation is that of a stalemate. The Decepticons can not take out the Moonbases until they can find a weak point or something.

A weak point... like waiting until that shuttle leaves, reducing the number of autobots on energon-depleted moonbase I to a mere eight, less than half the number of Decepticons originally present at the Autobot City battle? I think we have a winner. No, wait, attacking the shuttle like before, then sending it on collision course with the moon base, bailing out before impact and strafing anything that survives.

You claim that they couldn't take the moonbases outright though, but somehow, after wasting autobot city, the Cons will suddenly be able to attack the moonbases then... huh? What is the element that has changed from the initial condition? What, is demoralization supposed to win the day? What about causalties? Certainly they won't be able to take the moonbases with even less troops!

The Autobots can not take Cybertron until they get Energon and formulate a plan.

"Looks like Shockwave is the only one home. It's doubtful he can man all the defensive systems for Cybertron on his own. Let's strike now!" for example.

The situation needs an alternative. Namely, Autobot City.

Which was riskier than going after the moonbases and resulted in several casualties.

I am not saying that this was the best decision, hell I would have waited for the Autobots to make a move and then countered it, but it would have been better than taking the Moonbases at that time. Take the Moonbases later. Autobot City is just a City, the Moonbases are Moons. They are quite larger plus there are two of them, perhaps one cannot comprehend the size of them. Sure they are smaller than Cybertron but they are still large.

The moonbases are on the moons; they aren't the entire moons themselves. that's why there's the usage of the two different terms of "moon" and "moonbase". Besides, if the entire moon is the base, it would be supremely stupid for everything to be located on top, where it's more vulnerable and more visible. No; the moonbases are just that; bases on the moons. I'd also hazard a guess that's why they were described as "secret staging grounds on two of Cybertron's moons" and not "secret bases built from two of Cybertron's moons."

In fact, there might not be that much to the moonbases at all. Investing a lot of resources for defense is wasteful and probably unnecessary from a tactical viewpoint. Remember, the autobots objective is to retake Cybertron so they must come to the Decepticons: the Cons don't have to go to them. Weathering some huge full-scale Decepticon assault from those bases is not their objective. The purpose of the moonbases is to serve as a springboard to attack Cybertron; not to serve as bunkers because the Cons plan to attack them. They are described as "staging grounds" not "battlestations"... though Autobot City has been called that, and despite their energon hoarde, they would have fallen without Prime's reinforcements.

The stealth constraints placed on the moonbases severely hamper the kind of work that can be done there without detection. Autobot City had no such limitations and it's quite doubtful the moonbases have similar giant turrets and such. It would take a lot of valuable time to convert those moons into anything comparable to begin with, then there's getting it all done before they are detected.

In the end, they're probably closer to supply depots than battlestations, since they're built for attacking Cybertron, not defending against an attack from Cybertron. Compare that to autobot city which must be able to withstand such assaults, since that is their home on earth; the most important target of any direct attack.

Your complaints really seem to be all built around defending Megatron's tactics, due to his line about vanquishing the autobots by taking out their city. That it has to be that way because he can't be screwing up on this too. I could be wrong on that count. But remember; this is also the guy that said he didn't want to use his unstoppable heat ray to instantly vaporize his enemies. Or that he would take out his enemies at his lesuire, even though you don't get much more of a lesuirely effort than shooting them in the head from point-blank range as they writhe in agony from Audio Disruptor Waves.

What will the one Moonbase do while the other is being attacked? Do we attack them at the same time or one after the other?

Attacking at the same time means we can not concentrate our forces but attacking them one after the other leaves us open to the other one. You see, there are a whole lot of problems involved in taking the Moonbases.

Moonbase II has Spike and Bumblebee on it. Just in case of some fluke, send Shockwave to kill them both at the same time moonbase I is attacked. Or better yet, send him first, so that when some of the autobots step outside to go help, they're sitting ducks. Then Shockwave can provide extra help if it is needed at moonbase I, since there's nobody in the vacinity to try going after Cybertron.

And as for anybody summoning help, even assuming that Ironhide's shuttle is on earth so reinforcements can leave immediately, it will still be many hours before they arrive. More than enough time to slay the inhabitants of moonbase I.

Or use my aforementioned attack via Ironhide's shuttle, so that you can crash it right on the autobot's heads when they step outside to go and help moonbase II.

I am also not saying that Megatron was the best leader but he was not an idiot either. You want good leaders look up names like Guderian, Patton, Manstein and Rommel. I do not think that Megatron’s character was written in a way that it should have been. He was meant to be strong, cunning and ruthless. All of that “Decepticon’s retreat!” and “I will be avenged!” I find annoying as well but in the movie he did seem to be of better character than the cartoons.

Have a look at the biography:

http://tfarchive.com/comics/genone/...tfumegatron.php

Anyway, your opinion and mine, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Cheers,

Wolfkin

That's wishful thinking though. Megatron has proven himself a total moron on a constant basis in the first two seasons. Given your fondness for him, I doubt you will want me to expound upon his mistakes, but I will upon request. Anyway, I'm not going to ignore all that so you can say his stint in the movie proved him any smarter.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I love quibbling over the fine points! Helps keep me sharpened-up, you know?

Sheba · Post by **Sheba** » Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:52 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
The simple reason is that Megatron's a ****ing idiot. Letting his subordinate shoot at the Ark with his pathetic little null ray thing was a bit dumb, too. Let's not forget, he kept on an air commander [yeh, slightly grand title for someone with between two and five subordinates who didn't usually listen to him anyway, but still...] who wandered around loudly telling him he was going to betray his leader, and often did so. He thought Devastator was a really good idea. He left all of Cybertron under the protection of a pillock like Shockwave. He had a comedy mono-brow. He was once beaten by fire-retardant foam. He employed Ramjet. He marooned someone who could turn into an F-15 on an island. He let Blitzwing and Astrotrain off trying to kill him. In a smackdown with someone who's beaten him week-in, week-out for the past few years, he decides to finish his opponent with his bare hands. He turned into a handgun.

In short, Megatron was blonde. He'd prolly have tried to kill a fish by drowning it...

Wolfkin · Post by **Wolfkin** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 12:59 am

Hello Snake!

You put forth an even more convincing argument this time. In light of the new information that you have brought forth I will have to yield this debate over to you. You obviously have spent a great deal of time learning all you can about the Transformers, much more time than I have.

Considering what you have said I agree that Megatron should have attacked the Moonbases instead. One thing though, I was under the impression that Cybertron was not left with a skeleton crew. I remember Shockwave having all of those Drones and Droids and what have you.

But, anyway, I think I will just enjoy the 'Toons and Movie and take them for what they really are, just entertainment. I will return to an area that I am much more knowledgeable in, that is World War Two Military History Research.

Some of my more usual dwellings:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/index.php

http://forum.axishistory.com/

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207

Cheers,

Wolfkin