The Original Seven Primes/The Seekers/Origins of Decepticons/Etc.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:29 pm

Even after watching ROTF three times, I'm still not 100% clear on the relationship between the seven Primes/The Fallen, the Seekers (including Jetfire), and how The Fallen got the Decepticons going, plus the AllSpark/Matrix of Leadership/Sun Harvester. Can someone please clear this up for me?

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:39 pm

The Fallen is one of the Original Seven Primes. They needed to steal nuclear fusion (presumably) from suns in order to create energon, using the Solar Harvester.

They had an agreement to only destroy stars in uninhabited systems, the Fallen disagreed and they had a scrap about it. The other six stole the key to the Harvester (inexplicably called the Matrix of Leadership) and stowed it away.

Somewhere along the way, the Fallen turned Megatron's head and used him to start a civil war and build an army for conquering the universe. Or something.

The Seekers are a cadre of (what I presume to all be) Decepticons who the Fallen sent out to scour the Earth in search of the Matrix, guided only by riddles apparently. Jetfire decided to become an Autobot but kept on looking for the key and somehow ended up in a museum.

The Allspark Cube... er, I'm guessing that's something seperate, tied into the origin of the original Seven in ways that'll either be cleared up in the third one or never mentioned again. It's a knowledge/power repository, seemingly used for creating Transformer life. Not unlike the thing of the same name from the Beast Series? Or the Creation Matrix.

Is my understanding. Don't ask questions!

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:00 pm

Makes sense...a few more items:

--Are the seven Primes supposed to be the seven "original" Transformers, or are they just the highest-ranking?

--Jetfire admits that The Fallen knows where the Sun Harvester is (if I remember correctly). If that's the case, and if the Seekers were deployed by The Fallen, why would the Seekers be searching anywhere other than the immediate desert area around where the Sun Harvester was located? Even if The Fallen didn't want to tell the Seekers where the Sun Harvester was located for fear of one of the Seekers taking control of it, why would he have them scouring the entire globe?

--Is Jetfire "dead" when the humans find him in the museum?

--How can Wheelie identify the Seekers just from looking at Simmons' photographs? It's clear, based on earlier in the movie, that Transformers can't identify other Transformers automatically when they're in vehicle mode. For example, the Autobots couldn't precisely "find" Demolishor until he transformed. Plus, if the Seekers came to Earth and took on these disguises, how would Wheelie recognize them?

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:07 pm

Vin Ghostal wrote:--Are the seven Primes supposed to be the seven "original" Transformers, or are they just the highest-ranking?

Vague. I think they were initially supposed to be the Original Thirteen, but with the downsizing of their number, pass. Though it may or may not be significant that Prime means First anyway.

--Jetfire admits that The Fallen knows where the Sun Harvester is (if I remember correctly). If that's the case, and if the Seekers were deployed by The Fallen, why would the Seekers be searching anywhere other than the immediate desert area around where the Sun Harvester was located? Even if The Fallen didn't want to tell the Seekers where the Sun Harvester was located for fear of one of the Seekers taking control of it, why would he have them scouring the entire globe?

Yeah, pass. He possibly gave the other Prime's more credit than they were worth in the "do a runner and hide it" category.

--Is Jetfire "dead" when the humans find him in the museum?

Stasis lock? Probably?

--How can Wheelie identify the Seekers just from looking at Simmons' photographs?

Possible he actually knew who they were. Bear in mind he's clued in on what they are, what they're after and where to find them. Plus he's on a search and retrieval mission of his own. It's possible he knew what alt modes they'd taken in the past, so automatically recognised them from the pics. Or at least assumed them to be.

RID Scourge · Post by **RID Scourge** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:58 pm

Yeah. I'd say that's the case with Wheelie. When Simmons shows him the pics and indicates that they're transformers it probably clicked with him right away that these were the seekers, based on knowledge he had.

IIRC the Allspark supposedly was responsible for the creation of life on Cybertron and possibly other planets. From Revenge of the Fallen I gather that it's not the only way to create a transformer, but it's the easiest.

Starfield · Post by **Starfield** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:15 pm

The seekers were looking for the Matrix, which, since the Primes could teleport around, could have hidden just about anywhere.

Instead they hid it in the last place anyone would think to look, right next to the harvester! Brilliant!

Revenge of the Fallen seems to be moving a way from a mystical artifact being needed to create Transformers to simply needing a high-energon jolt of energy. The AllSpark is simply a source of high-energon energy, and so is the harvester.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:01 pm

Starfield wrote:The seekers were looking for the Matrix, which, since the Primes could teleport around, could have hidden just about anywhere

Can the Primes actually teleport? The only two characters actually shown teleporting are The Fallen (a Prime) and Jetfire (a Seeker). Plus, Optimus can't teleport, but then again, he's a descendant of the original Primes...argh.

Other question: according to Simmons, who created the Cybertronian markings "all over the world," the Seekers or the humans? Also, did humans or Transformers create the temple and pyramid used to hide the Primes/Matrix and Sun Harvester, respectively?

Halfshell wrote:Vague. I think they were initially supposed to be the Original Thirteen, but with the downsizing of their number, pass. Though it may or may not be significant that Prime means First anyway.

I don't think Prime has the same connotation in this universe, as Optimus clearly isn't one of the "first" yet still holds the title. Maybe it's a leadership title a la Animated; then again, Megatron was once Optimus' equal on Cybertron yet never (as far as we know) held the Prime mantle.

Halfshell wrote:Stasis lock? Probably?

I'll buy that. I'll also buy your explanation of why Wheelie knows the location of the various (also in stasis lock) Seekers. I wish we knew what happened to the Seekers to put them all into stasis lock, and why Wheelie (so low on the totem pole, after all) would know the Seekers' locations. Maybe The Fallen told him, but why would he?

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:19 pm

Vin Ghostal wrote:Megatron was once Optimus' equal on Cybertron

Was he? I don't recall.

I wish we knew what happened to the Seekers to put them all into stasis lock, and why Wheelie (so low on the totem pole, after all) would know the Seekers' locations. Maybe The Fallen told him, but why would he?

Maybe they just gave up after a while? Going by Jetfire, I wouldn't disbelieve anybody telling me he just forgot what was going on and fell asleep.

As for how Wheelie knew... maybe he's behind it all? Maybe he knows and sees all and was just manipulating the humans into finding the Matrix in a great big wacky Xanatos Gambit kinda fashion. I mean we never saw him and The Fallen at the same time... and he did kinda just disappear.

Oooh. Maybe Wheelie's an evil genius. Maybe all Wheelies have always been evil geniiiiii...

IT FITS DAMMIT.

Yeah, my brain's given up for the night.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:48 pm

This might be a bit mental.

Okay, is mental, but might just fly.

Maybe Wheelie and the other Householdviolencecons were seeded with all this knowledge as a last gasp measure to continue or complete the Seekers' mission by the Allspark fragment?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Only Bumblebee shot the ****ery out of the rest of them, leaving just Wheelie, who got his face melted up and just kept quiet about it.

Anyone else love Bumblebee stomping off after blowing the shit out of the Witwicky's house? I love Movie Bumblebee, he's such a stroppy bastard.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:52 pm

I don't know what the hell "stroppy" means, but Movie Bumblebee is awesome. He's extremely likeable while also being tough as hell with a psychopathic murderous streak rivaling only Prime's amongst the Autobots. He has absolutely no problem ripping Ravage and Rampage limb from limb and murdering them with extreme prejudice, but he's also cute enough to visibly cry when Sam says it's time for them to part ways.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:57 am

Stroppy is basically what a teenage girl is when she's not getting her way.

Cliffjumper wrote:Maybe Wheelie and the other Householdviolencecons were seeded with all this knowledge as a last gasp measure to continue or complete the Seekers' mission by the Allspark fragment?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Only Bumblebee shot the ****ery out of the rest of them, leaving just Wheelie, who got his face melted up and just kept quiet about it.

I don't think Wheelie was actually one of the 'bots created by the Allspark shard. He wasn't in the kitchen, could speak English unlike the others, and we didn't see him until later. I think he just had the place under surveillance...

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:14 am

Is it possible the Seekers went into stasis lock because they'd run out of Energon/fuel? With the All Spark fragment giving Jetfire enough of a ooooomph (technical term) to jazz him up again?

SenahBirdR · Post by **SenahBirdR** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:25 am

inflatable dalek wrote:Is it possible the Seekers went into stasis lock because they'd run out of Energon/fuel? With the All Spark fragment giving Jetfire enough of a ooooomph (technical term) to jazz him up again?

This is sort of what I had assumed when I saw the movie. Jetfire seemed to have gone into some form of stasis lock and the fragment just jolted him awake. It didn't seem like a resurrection like with Megatron which seemed to need some expertise on top of a large shard.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:19 pm

Halfshell wrote:I don't think Wheelie was actually one of the 'bots created by the Allspark shard. He wasn't in the kitchen, could speak English unlike the others, and we didn't see him until later. I think he just had the place under surveillance...

STFU N00B!!!

fantomdranzerx · Post by **fantomdranzerx** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:23 pm

Vin Ghostal wrote:Can the Primes actually teleport? The only two characters actually shown teleporting are The Fallen (a Prime) and Jetfire (a Seeker). Plus, Optimus can't teleport, but then again, he's a descendant of the original Primes...argh.

In the junior novelization, Jetfire mentioned that the idea of Cybertronians with built in Space Bridges was scrapped, causing later generations to lack the ability to teleport. They probably figured that someone might come along and abuse its powers.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:28 pm

fantomdranzerx wrote:In the junior novelization

... yep... always more down...

fantomdranzerx · Post by **fantomdranzerx** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:57 pm

Also, in the IDW comics, it's said that the All Spark made two types of Cybertronians. The first ones were able to teleport wherever they wanted; these were the Primes. After the All Spark ran out of energy, it knew that it needed its creations to search the galaxy for energy. So it formed the second type of Cybertronians, which were the Transformers, to travel and find stars for energy.

However, it still doesn't really explain why Optimus can't teleport...

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:51 am

Er, because he wasn't one of the original ones?

He's just descended from them. Whatever the frak that means.

Post by **Blackjack** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:20 am

Halfshell wrote:He's just descended from them. Whatever the frak that means.

Budding?

Seriously, though... the comic adaptation calls him an 'orphan'. It's best not to think about it.

RID Scourge · Post by **RID Scourge** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:53 pm

I take "descended" to mean that they probably built him/programmed him/taught him.