DOTM: Why does ANYONE trust the Decepticons?

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:59 pm

One aspect of DOTM that really bugs me is how easily the Decepticons convince the humans to exile the Autobots from Earth. It became plainly obvious to the general public in ROTF that the Decepticons are evil...right around the time when The Fallen threatened to destroy human cities if the humans didn't give up Sam. I'm having trouble understanding why the humans turned around and sided with the Decepticons in DOTM.

Post by **Blackjack** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:17 pm

It's called 'blackmail'. The humans (even the public, since the news can say 'Decepticons' and 'Autobots' without explaining what they are) know that the Decepticons have at least 200+ Transformers, while the Autobots have around ten, and a bunch of humans.

And many of the 200+ Decepticons are in hiding. The humans certainly view that it would be better to stick with the Decepticons' orders until they can make a counterattack. It's like, if you're in charge of a nation, it's safer to buddy up with, say, America, than a small island nation.

Plus, what's there to say that none of the members of the UN are under Laserbeak's payroll like Dylan was?

Paul053 · Post by **Paul053** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:28 pm

Also the one who speaks is actually Sentinel, who said he is the leader of Autobots while Prime's clans are now rebels. And general public don't know he changed his side.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:32 pm

I dunno, it didn't hang together for me - a bit like the Autobots getting captured in Chicago it seemed to be a cheap way of getting from point A to point B; they wanted the big emotional send-off and the Autobots getting blown away, so we just get a quick rushed "Yeh, they're exiled" to get it there.

I can't recall the wording, but IIRC Sentinel doesn't even offer particularly good terms - he says they will strip the planet of resources peacefully if the Autobots are exiled, to which surely the answer would be "Yeh, we'll take our chances" (all of which pretty much scuppers the idea that anyone thinks he's just the sensible replacement for a rebel Optimus) - the number of Decepticons is less of an issue considering the potency of NEST; a co-ordinated military assault with Autobot back-up could take 200 Decepticons (I mean, Prime must get double-figures in the film himself, half a dozen of them in seconds), assuming it's all worked out from the start and the Decepticons don't get a foothold as they did in Chicago. So even if they take him at his word, there's not a lot to gain.

It would have been a little better if there had been some sort of anti-Autobot sentiment beyond the guy interviewing Simmons, rather than the token Mearings whining about stuff, but even then you're into Circuit Breaker territory if you have people objecting to a dozen Autobots and not being fazed by a couple of hundred Decepticons.

Paul053 · Post by **Paul053** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:59 pm

On the other hand, it also feels like none of the human government trust Prime's Autobots or be happy about them (besides don't know and not sure how many of them had been controlled as Cliffy mentioned). That could be why even after rebel Prime landing back on earth shortly after shuttle explosion, they didn't show up right away but waited until Chicago being completely destroyed. Then he showed up and gave that "We want to let your governments know ........" speech and it's more like saying "see, I told you, and you guys don't listen".

ishfishmial0 · Post by **ishfishmial0** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:49 am

Yeah I think it was a numbers game. There were so many more Decepticons than autobots.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:08 pm

The public might take Sentinel Prime at his word, that Optimus and his gang are rebels that have broken away from the Autobots. But even if that's true, why would the government believe him? Sentinel's just killed a bunch of people, broken into a government facility, and stolen the pillars, while Optimus and his bunch have never attacked or injured a human. It has to be pure blackmail - it makes no sense for the US government to sever their allegiance with the Autobots unless it's pure blackmail by Sentinel and the Decepticons.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:08 pm

While I agree broadly, Bumblebee definitely blows the ****ulus to the upulous out of someone in the nuclear facility raid. And I'm pretty sure he tracked down and killed Mikaela after she dumped Sam.

Post by **Blackjack** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:17 pm

I think the scene from the adaptations where the Autobots are overwhelmed in Washington, where Optimus has to order a retreat, would've worked much better if it were included, to illustrate how hopeless the situation is.

Post by **Warcry** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:37 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:I can't recall the wording, but IIRC Sentinel doesn't even offer particularly good terms - he says they will strip the planet of resources peacefully if the Autobots are exiled, to which surely the answer would be "Yeh, we'll take our chances"

This struck me as pretty odd, too. "We're going to take everything of value and leave you to die on this now-barren rock" isn't the sort of bargaining posture you'd expect to win many people over to your side.

It doesn't even work as blackmail, really. The humans in the Movies can obviously kill Transformers with enough preparation, and the Decepticons are outnumbered something like 35 million to one. I dunno about you, but I don't think Barricade or Laserbeak are going to be able to pull their weight in that equation. Considering how many people would die if the 'Cons actually did what Sentinel wanted to do, I don't see how fighting them would have made things worse. I'd imagine there would have been a few other Chicago-scale massacres around the world, but nothing compared to watching the whole species slowly starve to death or regress back to the Middle Ages for lack of the resources we need to sustain our way of life.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:49 pm

Yeh - the Decepticons rush the Autobots in Washington, simple as. They simply don't know what to expect (though was I the only one who barely noticed the other Autobots and initially wondered who exactly Optimus was ordering to retreat?). Sentinel and the Decepticons are then taken out by the Autobots, the few NEST troops that actually make it through and the Tomahawks...

While there were a lot of casualties, it was actually a severe arse-kicking for the bad guys that they couldn't hold Chicago - Hell, they have those pesky dangling wires to thank for getting as far as they did; it's worth noting that the battle of the Primes is essentially irrelevant as the rest of the Autobots and NEST are all over the pillar by then and Sentinel's main plan is in the pan - it's just a matter of how many people he kills before he's taken down.

While I liked DotM a lot, it's probably more culpable than either of the other two for just trying to rush illogical things past the audience... RotF suffered from not explaining some things that make sense if you stop and think about them, but there are still a few things in DotM I just can't fathom.

Paul053 · Post by **Paul053** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:00 pm

Warcry wrote:The humans in the Movies can obviously kill Transformers with enough preparation, and the Decepticons are outnumbered something like 35 million to one.

That being said, making humans able to "kill" Transformers is a huge mistake since the first movie. (the same feeling followed by the ongoing....)

Cliffjumper wrote:They simply don't know what to expect (though was I the only one who barely noticed the other Autobots and initially wondered who exactly Optimus was ordering to retreat?).

I have the same feeling as well. In that scene only Bumblebee and Dino showed up but Prime's retreat order was like to the entire Autobots in the universe. And he kept pursuing Sentinel while ordering others to retreat? Also all Decepticons were storming out of Washington like running for their lives, they weren't occupying Washington really. Why order retreat?[/QUOTE]

Cliffjumper wrote:While I liked DotM a lot, it's probably more culpable than either of the other two for just trying to rush illogical things past the audience... RotF suffered from not explaining some things that make sense if you stop and think about them, but there are still a few things in DotM I just can't fathom.

Me, too. The part of breaking alliance as we discussed, even my wife asked me why. And it's not a good thing because if she has this question, it is obviously a plot hole big enough for her to notice.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:41 pm

Paul053 wrote:That being said, making humans able to "kill" Transformers is a huge mistake since the first movie. (the same feeling followed by the ongoing....)

Nah, it's just a matter of balance. Transformers aren't much more than armour plating at best; the really ridiculous stuff is in the old comics (and less often, the cartoons) where they just laugh it off. It's too sci-fi if they can mysteriously resist weapons which can level buildings.

Some of them being killed off has been a bit anticlimactic (it really is a shame all those Constructicons get airstriked in RotF), but broadly it's been handled sensibly.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:49 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:While I liked DotM a lot, it's probably more culpable than either of the other two for just trying to rush illogical things past the audience... RotF suffered from not explaining some things that make sense if you stop and think about them, but there are still a few things in DotM I just can't fathom.

Yeah...during ROTF in the theater, I actually apologized to my wife at several points because it was such a poor movie from a comedy/pacing standpoint. During (and especially after) DOTM, I found myself trying to explain away (often to no avail) some of the serious leaps in plot logic.

Summerhayes · Post by **Summerhayes** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:02 pm

I never had a problem with this, actually. I took it as the 'Cons and Sentinel threatening the humans that they ought to get rid of the Autobots, and the humans thinking that maybe losing 9 (11) Autobots wouldn't make much of a difference.