Rewatching Beast Wars for the first time in years...

[Skyquake87]

Aye, i do like the themes and ideas in the show and the animation is impressive. it could have just used some good characterisation, a little gallows humour and some more adventuerous episodes other than attacking and running away from drones.

[Cliffjumper]

There being a good reason for it didn't make them less annoying to watch.

Well, obviously - all I'm saying is there's a big difference between "I don't like ____'s character" and "____ is out of character".

Finished it off today; the last two or three were a bit of a mess in places, the final battle just not really grabbing me, which was a shame. I adore Botanica, though, Obsidian and Strika (especially Strika; there's your strong female character, and she doesn't need tits and hips either) are superb, and Nightscream really isn't anywhere near as bad as his rep, especially after the first couple of eps when he's not quite as Poochie.

Some really good stuff, though they play their hand with Rhinox and Jetstorm a little too early IMHO; it leaves developed villains thin on the ground for too long. Mental Rhinox is great, though.

Overall it's a good series; not perfect, but with more than enough good points to outweigh the bad. The plots are maybe better than the episodes, if that makes sense.

Onto RiD now. God, being spoilt with Cullen really hasn't done Chalk any favours... Great Primal, mediocre Prime. Weirdly, though, the first episode especially has an odd live action film vibe in places.

[inflatable dalek]

Well, obviously - all I'm saying is there's a big difference between "I don't like ____'s character" and "____ is out of character".

I suspect the instant change between series doesn't help either, it's not a case of watching the characters evolve and develop organically (if you'll pardon the pun), they just end BW one way and start BM another. You can sort of tell there was a total creative team change with little chance for the former series to help set up the newer.

Overall it's a good series; not perfect, but with more than enough good points to outweigh the bad. The plots are maybe better than the episodes, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I'd agree with that (though I can't remember Strika at all). I recall the whole "Oracle set up everything" aspect not even standing up to the slightest scrutiny (as well as the Beast Modes getting less organic as BW went on- working against the supposed grand plan- you've got the Rebirth problem of the super computer setting up a overly complicated and potentially disastrous plan to get what it wants rather than just putting out a post it note saying "Plasma Energy" or "Organic alt modes baby") and the Primal/Megatron smack down being a bit underwhelming, but other than that, good stuff.

Onto RiD now. God, being spoilt with Cullen really hasn't done Chalk any favours... Great Primal, mediocre Prime. Weirdly, though, the first episode especially has an odd live action film vibe in places.

Is this the point I get to be a complete bastard and point out it isn't Chalk in RID (he's not SAG, so he's not involved in any of the shows where the voice recording was done in LA. That's one of the reasons there's very little crossover between the Canadian and US recorded shows)?

Though I agree in priniciple, I found Chalk very underwhelming in the Unicron stuff. I think a large part of that is that, for all the "TRUUK NUT MUNNKEY" nonsense Primal is actually a very different character to classic Optimus Prime, a rookie captain who's more of a scientist/explorer. Only the Animated version is really anything like that, and being good at the one type of character doesn't make you a shoe in for the more John Wayney style Optimus.

Slightly related, just reached ghost in the Machine in my G1 watchthrough, and Starscream having a whole new body at the end of that doesn't really gel with his BW ghost showing does it (nor any of those terrible looking Japanese fan wank comics either for that matter)? I suppose he could have had another comical death in the meantime but it did stand out.

[Cliffjumper]

Oh yeh, Kaplan or someone wasn't it? He sounds like he's doing an impression of Chalk doing an impression of Cullen, which is odd as he got the gig first. I'm not generally much of a voice actor fanboy, but Cullen IS Prime, there's no two ways about it, and the film/Prime have just showed up how far else the rest are.

Regarding Starscream's Ghost, I've always taken it as a given that he basically dies at some point after being blown into space - sure, he has his new body, but the inference is he's floating helplessly through space (which "Starscream's Brigade" implied is basically life imprisonment, even if "Revenge of Bruticus" directly contradicted it with one of its' many showings of bad science), so he's going to run out of Energon sooner or later, surely?

I always thought it was telling he was never roped back in for Headmasters, TBH.

[inflatable dalek]

Oh yeh, Kaplan or someone wasn't it? He sounds like he's doing an impression of Chalk doing an impression of Cullen, which is odd as he got the gig first. I'm not generally much of a voice actor fanboy, but Cullen IS Prime, there's no two ways about it, and the film/Prime have just showed up how far else the rest are.

Yep, though I don't remember having any huge problem with Kaplan (the only TF voice actor to have a surname in Klingon surely?) I think all the other Prime's do suffer from having to perform in more of a straitjacket than, say, any of the people who've stepped into Welker's shoes as Megatron (hell, from what I've seen even Welker's not doing his G1 voice in Prime). Which does raise the question of who can possibly step into Cullen's shoes easily when the time does come for someone else to come up to bat in the role again, be it for the films or the next TV show.

Though, and again I've only seen a few episodes so maybe this ceases to be a problem as it goes on, but I do with Prime Prime's un-masked face wasn't so young looking, it really doesn't match the voice at all (and no, there's absolutely no reason it should technically so this may just be the way my brain works).

[Cliffjumper]

Personally I find Cullen doesn't sound quite so aged in Prime as he does in the films - which really speaks volumes for his abilities.

[inflatable dalek]

I could well be wrong, I've only seen the first show, and whatever was on screen at AA this year (I mainly paid attention to The One With Wheeljack and The One With The Bugger Me It's The Scraplets!).

Have you ever seen Cullen speak in real life with his normal voice? It's bizzare to hear him talking in this higher pitched New Yorkish sounding accent when I'd assumed for years he just talked like Prime (even Ironhide basically sounds like Prime's retarded cousin).

To be vaguely on topic, one surprising thing about AA this year for me was how much the rubber duckey David Kaye whipped out in the script reading sold for in the charity auction the next day, a couple of hundred quid. Now, I know it was for a good cause, but it would have been much cheaper and easier to just go out and buy an identical duck from the local Tesco for a couple of pounds and then get him to sign it...

[Cunning Ravage]

Some really good stuff, though they play their hand with Rhinox and Jetstorm a little too early IMHO; it leaves developed villains thin on the ground for too long. Mental Rhinox is great, though.

Bit late to the party, but I also just did a re-watch of BM. I get why it's so hated, even Though I feel it doesn't deserve it at all. Defiantly took them a tad too long to give Thrust some good character work, but when they did, it worked really well.

[inflatable dalek]

Rewatched the two part pilot, and generally its good fun. The "Terrorise!"/"Maxamise!" stuff really drags the action down and the fight scenes are a bit Headmasters with everyone standing in front of one another firing randomly for five minutes.

But, the Maximals all make an instant impression (What's wrong with Rattrap? Considering none of them are trained soldiers his "Not me mate" reactions make sense. Not sure how well him and Primal not knowing each other very well gels with later episodes though) and Megatron is instantly awesome. I was surprised he was doing the "YESSSSSSS" thing from pretty much his first scene as well, I thought it was something that had happened once in one script that the writers then fell upon for the following ones, but he's on it throughout the pilot.

The big flaw though, especially for a show that would later have character development as its main strength, is that most of the other Predacons might as well have not turned up. I think Tarantulus and Waspinator get about two lines each and I'm not actually sure Scorponok and Terrorsaur actually say anything but '[Name] Terrorise!".

[Warcry]

The "Terrorise!"/"Maxamise!" stuff really drags the action down

It's pretty cringeworthy, isn't it? It gets better as the season goes on but for the first few episodes I felt like I was watching Power Rangers.

I've just started rewatching the first season, and I'm surprised by just how little it's impressed me. I'm about eight episodes in, and keep forgetting that I'm trying to watch it. The CGI is pretty awful, especially the character animations -- Tarantulas especially has moments where he looks more like a marionette than a robot, and I think in general it's taking Mainframe a while to figure out just what they can and can't do with the technology they're using. Most of the characters are bland ciphers, and Dinobot actually feels out of place for having motivations and character development. The plots are pretty nondescript too, so much so that I can't actually remember more than a couple of the episodes that I've watched.

I mostly remember the second and third season from when I was younger, so I was expecting something a bit...well, a bit less forgettable. I honestly wouldn't rate what I've seen so far and better than I'd rate G1.

I think Tarantulus and Waspinator get about two lines each and I'm not actually sure Scorponok and Terrorsaur actually say anything but '[Name] Terrorise!".

I don't think Scorponok ever grows past "Scorponok Terrorize!". Other than that one episode where he had Grimlock's speech impediment, he's so completely forgettable it's baffling. You'd think that Megatron's supposed second-in-command would get at least a modicum of attention, wouldn't you?

[Heinrad]

I think the reason Scorpy never got more development was simply down to the fact that this particular Megatron did the smart thing and got a moron to be his second in command. Yes, he's little more than a thug(and an absent minded scientific genius), but at least this way Megs can take a bath without having to kick his second in command out of the commander's seat because he left the room.

[Warcry]

That makes sense, especially after he got burned by Dinobot. And since Inferno inherited the 'subcommander' mantle after Scorponok died it certainly seems like blind loyalty to Megatron was the most important qualification for the job, if not the only one.

But even then, I don't think that's any excuse not to at neast give Scorpy a personality over the 20-odd episodes that he showed up in. He swings from "moron who talks like Grimlock" to "blindly loyal cipher" to "designing missile-delivered computer viruses" with such regularity that I doubt even the writers knew who he was supposed to be.

[Osku]

For me it's rather easy to look past the outdated animation in BW, but I'm always surprised how cheesy portion of the soundtrack is. Especially the guitar solo(?) (check the 1st season opening episodes if yoou don't remember) is painful to listen. Yes, I know it's childrens' "heroic adventure and action" cartoon, but still...

I suppose I'm not the only one thinking that BW is still favourite series, but BM has aged better.

[Cliffjumper]

Yeh, the stock music is a pain - what are there, about three pieces? And the synthy "not by the original artists" guitar is used for everything, isn't it?

BM's definitely got more mileage; it helps that it's on Cybertron and can be a bit more abstract in terms of design and animation. BW really suffers when the protohumans come along in that respect.

BW's approach to the characters reminds me a little of the Marvel and Bay material in some ways - there's a realisation they're never going to be able to do well-rounded characterisation for everyone, so some characters are effectively ignored (Scorponok/Tigatron for Trailbreaker/Seaspray or Sideswipe/Topspin) in return for making at least some characters well developed.

[inflatable dalek]

I think the reason Scorpy never got more development was simply down to the fact that this particular Megatron did the smart thing and got a moron to be his second in command. Yes, he's little more than a thug(and an absent minded scientific genius), but at least this way Megs can take a bath without having to kick his second in command out of the commander's seat because he left the room.

How on Earth is that the smart thing? G1 cartoon Megs at least had Shockwave and Soundwave on team as smart and loyal higher ups as well as seemingly happy to be obedient dumb muscle like Thundercracker. All the initial Predacons Megatron brings with him are either morons, traitorous, or, in the case of Terrorsaur, traitorous morons. Considering he's generally regarded as the smartest and most effective Megatron it's surprising he did so much worse on that score.

I can't see how surrounding yourself with useless mentally backwards sidekicks on purpose is a good thing. I'm just up to The Trigger now and it's actually surprising the Maximals haven't won the whole thing several times over already (and yes, I know just about every version of the franchise is guilty of this to some degree several times over, but BW is supposed to be better than that surely?).

Most of the later Preds aren't much better, but at least Megatron didn't have any choice with them. That first line up only makes sense if you assume that Predacon rebel is the sort of job that only attracts really pathetic idiots because everyone else is happy with peace. Which is theoretically fine but ruins the threat factor somewhat. I actually feel sorry for poor old Megatron.

Mind, the Maximals aren't helping by being so sporting that everytime the do some Chuck Avery damage that takes out a Predacon they'll leave the remains behind so the other Preds can come along and pick up the parts for reassembly later on.

Still enjoying the show hugely though. But does anyone find it odd that in Victory the Maximals look to be leaving all the stasis pods behind and going straight home?

[Cliffjumper]

Dunno, it's worth remembering that Rhinox and maaaybe Primal aside, the Maximals are all pretty thick as well.

[inflatable dalek]

Dunno, it's worth remembering that Rhinox and maaaybe Primal aside, the Maximals are all pretty thick as well.

Though at least they all seem to be working together for the most part. You get the feeling that if they'd all just stayed on the Axalon with the door closed the Predacons would have all killed each other through a combination of treachery and dumbassery in about a week.

I mean, I could maybe understand Megatron wanting a strong right arm, but Scorponok's inability to walk and think at the same time (except for the odd random moment where he suddenly takes over Tarantulas' role as mad scientist) is a severe liability. Plus, he's not even so tough, he usually gets taken down fairly quickly.

Tigatron's a deeply stupid hippy isn't he? "This island is a paradise!" Errr, Paradise usually isn't covered in lethal death traps mate. Plus, the whole of prehistoric Earth is pretty much perfect at this point so it's not as if you need to dodge boulders just to have a walk on the grass.

I do like how nobody takes Terrorsaurs' Starscream plots even remotely seriously though.

[Osku]

How on Earth is that the smart thing? G1 cartoon Megs at least had Shockwave and Soundwave on team as smart and loyal higher ups as well as seemingly happy to be obedient dumb muscle like Thundercracker. All the initial Predacons Megatron brings with him are either morons, traitorous, or, in the case of Terrorsaur, traitorous morons. Considering he's generally regarded as the smartest and most effective Megatron it's surprising he did so much worse on that score.

I can't see how surrounding yourself with useless mentally backwards sidekicks on purpose is a good thing. I'm just up to The Trigger now and it's actually surprising the Maximals haven't won the whole thing several times over already (and yes, I know just about every version of the franchise is guilty of this to some degree several times over, but BW is supposed to be better than that surely?).

Most of the later Preds aren't much better, but at least Megatron didn't have any choice with them. That first line up only makes sense if you assume that Predacon rebel is the sort of job that only attracts really pathetic idiots because everyone else is happy with peace. Which is theoretically fine but ruins the threat factor somewhat. I actually feel sorry for poor old Megatron.

Looking at Megatron's group it's clear he didn't really have an opportunity to cherry pick his team. He is a rebel inside a lower cast of current cybertronian civilization and he has to avoid the attention of both Maximal and Predacon leaders. On Earth it doesn't really help that his competent second in command turns on him and his competent science officer is actually a mole sent by Tripredacus council.

I've always liked the fact that most of the characters on both sides aren't soldiers, makes their incompetence much more believable.

Still enjoying the show hugely though. But does anyone find it odd that in Victory the Maximals look to be leaving all the stasis pods behind and going straight home?

Only one of the plot holes left by the hurried ending. I've tried to explain that away by " they planned to come back and tidy up later on".

[Knightdramon]

After the third movie has taken it's toll on us, I can safely say that fans watching Beast Machines now are much, much easier on the designs. With the writing, animation, character designs and all, it's definitely the "not appreciated on it's time" TF show.

Still think that BW, especially during the mid to late season 3 dropped the ball too much. It's one of those cases where toy designing and hasbro played a very strong role on the script.

While it's still a kid's show where the main characters are supposed to be brave and bold, the Maximals are way, way overpowered for what is a scientific expedition crew. Guys who whine about Rattrap not being himself probably have the same memory of him as I do: the guy who more or less, single handedly, took down Ravage's ship. And killed him.

Rhinox. Practically pulped down anybody in his way, without even being a transmetal. Cheetor--young and brash, but still a warrior. Dinobot was arguably already a warrior.

Optimus Primal, the chief scientific expeditor, actually had more weapons in person than Optimus Prime! Wrist shotguns, two swords and shoulder missles, and that's even before he became a transmetal!

[Warcry]

How on Earth is that the smart thing? G1 cartoon Megs at least had Shockwave and Soundwave on team as smart and loyal higher ups as well as seemingly happy to be obedient dumb muscle like Thundercracker. All the initial Predacons Megatron brings with him are either morons, traitorous, or, in the case of Terrorsaur, traitorous morons. Considering he's generally regarded as the smartest and most effective Megatron it's surprising he did so much worse on that score.

One thing to keep in mind is that G1 Megatron was running a much larger organization than BW Megatron. G1 Megs needed intelligent higher-ups like Soundwave and Shockwave to make decisions in his stead because he had dozens (if not hundreds) of minions running around and there's no way he could keep track of them all, let alone lead them all personally. And since he had so many underlings, naturally at least a few of them would be competant and rise to the top.

But BW Megatron never had more than six or seven troops under his command at any one time. And since he's considered a rebel even by his own people, he obviously didn't have a chance to be very choosy when he was recruiting. In a situation like that, having loyal morons like Waspinator or Scorponok under his command might be worth it because he can count on them to actually do what they're told. And the dangers of having traitors like Terrorsaur or Tarantulas around is mitigated at least a little bit by the fact that he can usually keep an eye on them personally and clobber them if they get out of line.

Having actual soldiers would be better, sure, but in a situation like his you have to work with what you've got. And when you've got to choose your lieutenant from Scorponok, Tarantulas, Waspinator and Terrosaur, picking the big dumb guy who's going to clobber anyone who betrays you probably is the smartest choice.