Discussion of discussion of companies and fans [was: The TF Wiki: Feelings?]

[Cliffjumper]

Personal judgement calls, same as always.

Right. Whose personal judgement calls? Because I know what mine is, and I think I've laid out a pretty good case as to why some guy getting banned from some another site isn't really what this topic or this folder is for, and why it sets a tricky precedent for us to follow.

Your judgement call seems to be that this is fine - I'm okay with that, you seem to make better judgement calls than me on a pretty regular basis 9this is why I haven't made my own personal call, and removed and locked the last couple of pages, possibly burying them in the Trivia forum for the encore... and, truth be told, for accuracy of filing). I'd just like laid out in reasonably solid terms when it's okay to bring some other site or board's internal strife over here for no readily apparent reason, and when it's not.

[Denyer]

when it's okay to bring some other site or board's internal strife over here for no readily apparent reason, and when it's not.

Broadly: where it involves official organisations or other not-fan-only ones. 3H / OTFCC / Fun Publications / Wikia / etc. are businesses with a profit model revolving around TF fans. As was the Seibertron store. As are the (freelance as well as in-company) TF creators you were singling out in the lattermost thread.

This isn't a broad pass for people to come and whinge about their treatment on other boards, slag off other fans, etc. -- though again, there's been some discussion of things like that here at times.

edit: Wikia's handling is in some ways like that of ezBoard (Re: the Allspark) a good many years ago.

[Cliffjumper]

So, then, discussion of this specific user who, if I'm following correctly, made a likely-reversible salt-the-Earth attack on an old site which seems to be being rapidly disowned by online fandom and got banned from it (which is a little bit like us banning, say, Cloudstrifer), has moved beyond that, then?

I'm really not trying to be awkward here, or kick up a fuss. I'm just struggling to follow this at all, and I'm meant to be moderating it. Well, when no proper mods are around and there's absolutely no other option, anyway.

[Denyer]

Discussion got to: organisation being apparently unreasonable towards a fan, oh wait, new information, they're actually justified. And then vanished under meta about this board (which can be stuck in the Site forum if it bothers anyone.)

[Cliffjumper]

That'd be the organisation who, again if I'm following correctly, no longer have anything to do with the 'active' Wiki? This is what I'm currently struggling to grasp... this guy left the old Wikia-ran Wiki along with basically everyone else, and started working on the Walkie-ran Wiki, yes? He's then banned from the old one he left after the event - even if it was unjustified, I'm not following how that's particularly anyone's problem. Like I say, I could have missed something, but if that's what's happened I'm not seeing why it was reported here in the first place.

[Denyer]

That'd be the organisation who, again if I'm following correctly, no longer have anything to do with the 'active' Wiki?

This'd be the organisation that's hosting, helping to operate, and currently taking a direct role in administrating a Transformers wiki. Of which there are now two major ones.

The treatment of fans by Wikia is germane. The treatment of fans on TFwiki.net, a fan site that isn't being run for profit, isn't. Is that clearer on where the distinction I'm making is?

(edit: More generally, the treatment of fans on forums operated by a license-holder such as Fun Pub or IDW -- by agents of those holders -- may also be.)

[Jaynz]

Sorry, Denyer, I'm not going to buy it. As has been said, there have been numerous threads about other fan sites and issues over the years here, and saying "transformers.wikia.com" is fair game but "tfwiki.net" is not, I don't feel, remotely justifiable. After all, both sites take donations, etc... it's just one has a professional host and the other doesn't.

That said, I'm going on record as saying that both sides are acting like utter prats, but one side is far far more vulnerable legally than the other. You got a bunch of amateur fans deciding to vandalize a professional site for the sole purpose of hurting their business - and admitting it openly? That's just plain stupid.

[Denyer]

saying "transformers.wikia.com" is fair game

Specifically, the actions of Wikia employees.

it's just one has a professional host and the other doesn't.

One has a business model, the other's like any other fan site that runs ads and accepts donations to cover hosting.

there have been numerous threads about other fan sites and issues over the years here

And doubtless will be in time to come. We generally don't get into "waah, I got kicked by [x] fan site" and that (i.e. bitching about specific other fans) isn't what this clarification is intended to cover.

[Cliffjumper]

Of which there are now two major ones.

Are there, though? I've failed to see much of a change on the old one (admittedly I haven't been actively checking it) - the new one seems to have generally generated enough fan goodwill for it to start being most fans' TF Wiki of choice, the old one doesn't seem to be moving much at all.

The treatment of fans by Wikia is germane. The treatment of fans on TFwiki.net, a fan site that isn't being run for profit, isn't. Is that clearer on where the distinction I'm making is?

I think so, though I had to look up 'germane'. I'm not seeing how their treatment of one ex-editor is particularly germane, however - never mind that it turned out that they did the right thing, they banned someone from their site - not swathes of people, not anyone who didn't toe the line, just one guy, as it turns out for some stupid vandalism. I strongly feel this isn't the place for discussion of that sort of situation, even before this chap turning out to have done it became clear.

[Jaynz]

And doubtless will be in time to come. We generally don't get into "waah, I got kicked by [x] fan site" and that (i.e. bitching about specific other fans) isn't what this clarification is intended to cover.

I'm just saying that if it's actually newsworthy for the general purposes of the fandom, the difference between being a 'pro' site, and a 'fan-run' site shouldn't be that much of a determinant factor on who gets covered. Also, sure, we can be more forgiving of a fan-site than a pro-site, since the standards are different, but that's not the same as saying 'Site #1 gets a free pass' and 'Site #2 gets reamed over the coals'.

Now, this issue? To me it's not really that newsworthy. It's more of the petty sniping common with splits, so I'm largely in a 'who cares' mode with it.

The difference here that isn't yet manifest (and let's hope that it doesn't) in that wikia may decide to sue, or even prosecute, Walky and/or others for the actions of the staff there. At that point, I think we can all agree it would be newsworthy for all of us.

I just disagree that the determining factor in discussion should have anything much to do with if a site is 'pro' or not.

[Denyer]

Are there, though?

The Wikia-controlled one has much the same huge amount of content, is open to fans for editing, etc. A lot of the previous community seem to have checked out, but the site is still being operated (and is indeed the primary TF wiki on the web as far as search engines -- and corresponding traffic, one would suspect -- are concerned.)

I'm not seeing how their treatment of one ex-editor is particularly germane, however

For much the same reason FP kicking fans without good reason would be; they're an organisation that exists to profit from fans of things. (And Wikia is specifically a for-profit enterprise, not a charitable foundation like Wikipedia.)

[Denyer]

I just disagree that the determining factor in discussion should have anything much to do with if a site is 'pro' or not.

No-one's suggesting a BotTalk approach to discussion of fan sites. They come up in conversation all the time; and indeed that previous sentence. Merely that this isn't a soapbox for protesting against the admin styles of other fan-run places.

When a site / organisation exists for the purpose of profiting from fans, it's a far more legitimate target for criticism.

[Cliffjumper]

The Wikia-controlled one has much the same huge amount of content, is open to fans for editing, etc. A lot of the previous community seem to have checked out, but the site is still being operated (and is indeed the primary TF wiki on the web as far as search engines -- and corresponding traffic, one would suspect -- are concerned.)[/b]

Aye, but with what seems like a fair chunk of fandom behind the new one, that'll most likely change. It's difficult to see at the moment as the split happened fairly recently, so some pages are identical and the oldest has a big head-start on Google. However, one is current and one is - to all intends and purposes - dead.

See, this thread illustrates pretty well why I think it's an area we should steer clear of. Someone's made what turns out to be a completely erroneous statement about the conduct of another site, formed largely out of prejudice against said site ("They've pulled this kinda crap before!" is not a reason to leap in two-footed, that's like slamming AHM issues when the solicitation covers go up...), it's turned out in this one case said site turned out to be acting in... a way that is understandable (by the same token that I don't see why it's interesting that they've banned one person who doesn't use the site anymore, I don't see why they actually bothered banning someone who'd left the building). None of that particularly needed to be discussed here.

[Denyer]

I don't see why it's interesting that they've banned one person who doesn't use the site anymore,

I'm basically repeating myself if I go over why I do.

one is - to all intends and purposes - dead

Which you seem to be basing solely on editing activity. It's going to take a very long time indeed and/or the removal of the content from Wikia before the first wiki stops being the first thing fans stumble on for a wide variety of search terms. It's also a going concern with open registration.

None of that particularly needed to be discussed here.

Nor the vast majority of things that are. I don't see that as a good reason to put those things off-limits, or to not have a forum. The other people having the conversation that's now behind a bunch of posts about the legitimacy of that conversation were playing nice, insofar as a specific individual was being named. And learning something from it about leaping in.

Speaking of learning, I'm still curious as to why whatever this thing was doesn't show on editing histories.

[Cliffjumper]

I'm basically repeating myself if I go over why I do.

And I probably will be if I say it again... I think we've laid out enough here that what I'm afraid of (people using this as a precedent for a general bitchfest) is clearly shown to be not on, plus there's the good cautionary example of trying not to believe the first thing you hear on these matters, or just the thing you want to be true.

As said, in this case I defer to your judgement call. Hopefully there won't be the need anymore and people can rediscover Transformers discussion as opposed to Transformers fandom discussion. Stranger things have happened. Well, I can think of three, anyway.