The Balance of the Force [SPOILERS]

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Sir Auros
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The Balance of the Force [SPOILERS]

Post by Sir Auros » Fri May 20, 2005 4:01 am

Ok, I know the last thing we need is another Star Wars thread, but I think this warrants discussion without getting lost in the review thread or my optimist thread. I'm going to do my first post with the spoilers tag, but I don't expect anyone else participating in this discussion to do so. I'm just doing it to give people the chance to get out now without seeing anything.
SPOILER! (select to read)
Prior to seeing the movie, I read somewhere that there was something that was said in a short scene almost offhand that could change the way we view the entire saga, and I think I know what it is and it certainly changed the way I think about the force and the Jedi and Sith.

The scene I'm thinking of was the one with Mace, Yoda, and Obi Wan in the troop carrier discussing Anakin and the prophecy. We're finally filled in on what the prophecy is (other than just a vague "return the balance to the force"), and we realize that he does indeed fulfill the prophecy, only in a way that nobody expected. The big twist is that we realize that returning the balance to the force not only requires the elimination of the Sith, but a complete overhaul of the Jedi order.

Yes, I think the Jedi are at fault too and one of the reasons why the force created the chain of events that happened. Episode II hinted at the Jedis' preoccupation with logic and scorn at drawing from within and emotions and personal ties, while the Sith are at the opposite end of the spectrum by being powered by their emotions. As Palpatine said, it's not so simple as good and evil. Yes, the Jedi are good and the Sith are evil, but they both have valid views on the force itself and the force itself decided to strike a balance.

The balance isn't just created with Vader killing the last of the Sith, but with him enabling Luke to create a new Jedi order that mixes both idealogies and manages to be good at the same time.

Hardcore fans with more experience with the EU than myself may beg to differ, but this is the POV and thoughts of a more casual fan who has paid little attention to George Lucas' thoughts on the nature of the force and the story outside of what he's done in the movies.

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Post by Redstreak » Fri May 20, 2005 4:11 am

That's a pretty interesting analysis, I think. While watching the film I took it to mean, more or less, that they simply had the wrong Skywalker(Luke being the one who actually brings balance). But I'm down with that for sure.

It does seem that the force has motives of its own, as one would have likely gathered by now, esp. reinforced by the Qui-Gon bit at the end.

I've never gone into much of anything outside the films either, so in that regard I see it from a similar perspective. Those who have gone into the expanded universe will undoubtedly have something else to say about all this.

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Post by BigMaki » Fri May 20, 2005 4:23 am

Vader did bring balance, considering he's the one that killed the Emperor. Too bad for the Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy that they were all dead by the time he got around to it... But I did wonder about that, when it was first brought up in Episode I. I mean, it sounded like the Force was pretty darn unbalanced towards the Jedi anyway. You've got to wonder what their definition of "balance" was.

I like the idea of light and dark referring to logic vs. emotion. It certainly explains why Yoda is so insistent that Luke stay and not fight Vader in ESB, a move based purely on emotion.

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Post by Tempest » Fri May 20, 2005 5:15 am

I was thinking this as well. At the start of the 2nd trilogy, their are 2 Sith and 2 full fledged Jedi. At the start of the first trilogy their was a whole academy of Jedi plus the concil. Vader brought the balance of the force to light, and I think the Emperor knew it.

I was going to make a post of this morning but I had to do to school ...

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Re: The Balance of the Force [SPOILERS]

Post by Bombshell » Fri May 20, 2005 6:51 am

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Hardcore fans with more experience with the EU than myself


I happen to be one of those types of people, and yet I agree with you.

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Post by Flounder » Fri May 20, 2005 6:53 am

In with regards to the whole balance thing ...
SPOILER! (select to read)
The Emperor doesn't die at the End if RotJ

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Post by BigMaki » Fri May 20, 2005 6:55 am

Originally posted by Flounder
SPOILER! (select to read)
The Emperor doesn't die at the End if RotJ

We shall not speak of Dark Empire again. Thank you for your cooperation.

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Post by Bombshell » Fri May 20, 2005 7:12 am

Originally posted by BigMaki
We shall not speak of Dark Empire again. Thank you for your cooperation.


I hope you're just cracking wise at Flounder's expense, otherwise I'm gonna have to hit you.

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Post by Prowl? » Fri May 20, 2005 8:44 am

EU is retarded.

Let's see, the EU has given Boba Fett 2 names, 2 genders, 1 improbable escape from the Sarlacc and a mindset that is completely inconsistent with what we are lead to believe from the movies

It also brought back the emperor, proved Han Solo to be royalty,killed off Chewie, made 3P0 110 years old, brought back Darth Maul twice, and had Jabba the Hutt fight off bandits with his bare hands.

If it ain't from Lucas, it ain't Canon in my mind.
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Post by Bombshell » Fri May 20, 2005 4:16 pm

Originally posted by Prowl?
EU is retarded.


So is that statement.

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Post by Dead Man Wade » Fri May 20, 2005 4:22 pm

Originally posted by Prowl?
and a mindset that is completely inconsistent with what we are lead to believe from the movies


I'm sorry. I know I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but what "mindset" did he have in the movies? He hardly had any lines, and the ones he did have were hardly enough to get a gauge of who he was. In the original trilogy, he mostly came across as a plot device.

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Post by Zisteau » Fri May 20, 2005 10:14 pm

Originally posted by BigMaki
We shall not speak of Dark Empire again. Thank you for your cooperation.


And why shouldn't we? Its one of the crowning jewels of the EU, especially after Episode III and all of Palpatine's talk of being able to avoid death through the dark side.
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Post by Prowl? » Fri May 20, 2005 10:26 pm

Originally posted by fort_max
I'm sorry. I know I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but what "mindset" did he have in the movies? He hardly had any lines, and the ones he did have were hardly enough to get a gauge of who he was. In the original trilogy, he mostly came across as a plot device.


I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I was refering to that which was established in episode 2 with the quiet competence that he demonstrated in assisting his father, and then in Episode 5 where he caught Solo. The EU built him up as this super cold hyper paranoid killer who has no friends and is almost incapable of trust. The EU makes him out to be a god-like character on par with Vader or Luke (he even has a lightsabre duel with Vader in one comic if you can believe it), while the movies simply established him as a resourceful bounty hunter.

Movies: competent bounty hunter that is human and failible

EU: Hyper badass indestructble bounty hunter that cannot die, is a kewl loner and cannot fail unless he is fighting Han Solo.

EU is turning Star Wars into Star Trek.....
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Post by Sixswitch » Fri May 20, 2005 10:27 pm

Originally posted by Prowl?

EU is turning Star Wars into Star Trek.....


It would sure as hell improve Star Wars.

-Ss

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Post by BigMaki » Fri May 20, 2005 11:16 pm

Originally posted by Zisteau
And why shouldn't we? Its one of the crowning jewels of the EU, especially after Episode III and all of Palpatine's talk of being able to avoid death through the dark side.

Can't even make a joke around here anymore, even if you're using the smiley. At least Bombers got it.

That said, Dark Empire isn't as good as people make it out to be. Gorgeous artwork, though. Of course, doesn't it conflict with whatever book mentioned how there's a "dark side zone" in space around Endor where the Emperor died in RotJ? Don't ask me to remember which book it was.

I used to read everything EU that came out, but gave up after the Jedi Academy trilogy after it became such a convoluted, oversaturated mess. :(

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Post by Bombshell » Fri May 20, 2005 11:45 pm

Originally posted by BigMaki
Can't even make a joke around here anymore, even if you're using the smiley. At least Bombers got it.


Which is ironic, because one can claim that I'm kinda responsible for that situation.
Originally posted by BigMaki
That said, Dark Empire isn't as good as people make it out to be. Gorgeous artwork, though. Of course, doesn't it conflict with whatever book mentioned how there's a "dark side zone" in space around Endor where the Emperor died in RotJ? Don't ask me to remember which book it was.


Dark Empire was great. Dark Empire II started out good, then began to decline. Empire's End was a pile.

And the book was "Dark Force Rising", point of fact.
Originally posted by BigMaki
I used to read everything EU that came out, but gave up after the Jedi Academy trilogy after it became such a convoluted, oversaturated mess. :(


You should really get back into it. Clone Wars and the New Jedi Order were both good story arcs, and the upcoming Legacy arc looks to be good.

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Post by Random Sweep » Sat May 21, 2005 1:56 am

Originally posted by Bombshell

You should really get back into it. Clone Wars and the New Jedi Order were both good story arcs, and the upcoming Legacy arc looks to be good.


I gotta agree with Bombers here. I thought that I would hate " The new Jedi Order " but it ended up almost eclipsing the orininal story for me.
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Post by wreckie » Wed May 25, 2005 4:48 am

Originally posted by BigMaki
Vader did bring balance, considering he's the one that killed the Emperor.


I don't think killing the Emperor was the "balance" part of the prophecy, though. I thought it went like this: the prophecy was for one who would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force, which Anakin does.

He just doesn't do it in that order. ;)

He kills everyone in the Jedi temple. This act, combined with the clone troopers turning on their Jedi commanders, brings balance to the force. There are only two Jedi left (Obi Wan and Yoda), nicely balancing the two Sith Lords.

THEN he destroys the Sith by renouncing the Dark Side and chucking the Emperor into the Convenient Pit Of Doom. (Or whatever the hole was that served no other useful purpose in the throne room.)

Then again, it might mean something totally different.

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Post by Tempest » Wed May 25, 2005 12:04 pm

Originally posted by wreckie

He kills everyone in the Jedi temple. This act, combined with the clone troopers turning on their Jedi commanders, brings balance to the force. There are only two Jedi left (Obi Wan and Yoda), nicely balancing the two Sith Lords.
.


I thought I had already pointed this out. However that isn't the main reason of this post.

Your an Australian, 1 point, your a Western Australian 2 points. Reason for his numbering system, no point.

Howdy and welcome, and were in Perth are you at son?

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Post by Sixswitch » Wed May 25, 2005 12:07 pm

Originally posted by Tempest

Howdy and welcome, and were in Perth are you at son?


Top tip. People rarely like being called 'son'. It's extremely patronising.

-Ss

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