Dollhouse Discussion (Expect Spoilers)

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:54 pm

As the title suggests, possibly some spoilers to be posted.

So,

I know for a fact there are numerous mahooosive Joss Whedon fans who frequent this board, so has anyone checked out Dollhouse yet??

I just watched the ep and I thought that it was.... Good, not great but good. Joss Whedon has always struggled with first episodes (imo) because I feel he far more enjoys dissecting the characters than setting them up. I feel at the moment that the cast isnt anywhere near as strong as any of his other shows, but that may well develope beyond my expectations as the show goes on.

One thing I must say is I knew Amy Acker was in the show.... but my god, I did not recognise her at first, just looks and sounds completely different to Fred.

I enjoyed some of the problems raised with the whole memory imprinting thing, that unseen events can occur with the wrong mix of memories... All in all I'd probably give it 7/10, and def looking forward to more.

What did anyone else think??

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:13 pm

I liked it, and the concept certainly allows for some interesting future episodes.

This episode did a good job setting up the concept and function of Dollhouse, as well as laying the ground work for what will probably be the overall season's story arc(s) with the cop trying to find out more about the Dollhouse and Echo gaining a personality of her own.

I did think the bit with Langton arguing to keep Echo's Ms. Penn personality was a bit cliche though (and the Boss Lady seemed to give in waaay to easily, plus, why hadn't the "treatment" been administered yet? It doesn't seem to take all that long...).

Overall, I thought the episode as a whole was good. Hopefully, the series will remain good, and hopefully Fox won't f**k Whedon over, again.

LKW · Post by **LKW** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:53 pm

I had a similar reaction to the pilot ep, "Ghost" - I liked it, but didn't quite love it. I definitely saw potential, and was impressed with the set, the acting - including Eliza Dushku's, even moreso on second viewing of the episode.

But episode 2, "The Target"? Excellent. Despite the indications that the early episodes would be more "standalone", there are several arc elements already developing, with Alpha, and Echo... And a little more witty wordplay here, as well, while still remaining a more solidly dramatic show.

It doesn't feel like I can express myself clearly today. I guess I'll wrap up for now saying that I'm interested in Echo, Boyd, Dr. Saunders, curious about most of the others, and very much looking forward to the rest of the season (and hopefully, maybe beyond),

Anyone who hasn't seen it (though, maybe you wouldn't be reading this spoiler-likely thread...) - episodes are available on Hulu and from iTunes, as welll as on fox.com, I believe, for US residents (and those who know ways around the system), and is also currently being shown in Canada, with Australia and other countries with undetermined future airdates....

Anyway - a creative show, exploring issues of identity, morality... I'll certainly keep watching

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:09 pm

So I presume the complete lack of interest in this thread is reflective of the quality of the show?

Because I, for one, am bored of the show, none of the episodes have gripped me so far, I dont think Dushku has quite what it takes to be an interesting lead character and the supporting cast are just.... pretty boring.

Alot of people are crying foul at the stick its getting, saying that its too early to judge a show, and that Whedon isnt exactly the best at opening seasons (something even I hinted to at first) but I dont think those excuses can be used for much longer.... Especially in a TV climate where if a premiere show isnt performig brilliant by half way through it would get cancelled.

According to what I have read the show kicks in to gear on ep 6 (next week) but imo its gonna need to kick in to about 4 gears higher than its in now, and if its not gripping by 9 Im looking to drop it.

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:59 pm

I still like it; the slow-pace doesn't really bother me, but I was hoping for a little more of the character development and dissection that I've come to expect from Whedon.

The concept still intrigues me, and there is some good dialogue and humor, but character interactions do sometimes feel a little flat. Also, the shows so far have been very formulaic, but still have enough plot variance to be enjoyable.

I'll at least bear out the season, then decide where it stands.

LKW · Post by **LKW** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:51 pm

Well, supposedly Fox wanted the series to start with several "pilots" - episodes standalone enough to not intimidate new viewers; so, a certain "formulaic" quality was probably inevitable. But, yeah, the Joss-penned "Man on the Street" is very much hyped as the "game-changer", when it really starts firing on all cylinders.

But, I've actually been enjoying it pretty well already, personally. As you noted, Transformer Kamen, there has been some pretty good variety in the missions already; several hints of development in Echo; and more humor is working its way in, too - Dr. Saunders and Topher's dealing with the "man reactions" in the last episode, in particular. Even Ballard is beginning to interest me a bit.

I'm defintely with it for the long haul; I'm not as attached to it as I am to the other three Whedon shows yet - but then, I'm more attached to Firefly now than I was when it was on-air. Dollhouse may or may not get there for me in time - there've already been moments I've really enjoyed, such as Boyd and Echo's reversal of "Do you trust me?"/"With my life." in The Target. And imho, it's already better than most other programs currently on the air; so, yeah. I may not get here to post about it often enough, but I'm good with it.

Ozz · Post by **Ozz** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:22 pm

CounterPunch wrote:So I presume the complete lack of interest in this thread is reflective of the quality of the show?

Something happened when I wasn't looking and now people are required to talk about stuff they like on the Internet?

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Ozz wrote:Something happened when I wasn't looking and now people are required to talk about stuff they like on the Internet?

No need to take that tone with me, im not some new kid posting here, that comment wasnt a dig at a lack of posting, it was more a dig at the fact I think the quality of the show is lacking, and whether this is stopping people from bothering to talk about it, especially relevant on a board that has many Whedon lovers and numerous TV discussion threads that go in to multiple pages. So I apologise for making a base assumption and making an off the cuff remark that had very little meaning.

Anyway, back on topic, I've read a few advanced reviews of tonights episode and all have said that it is by far the best so far, with plot advancements and such, hopefully this is the beginning of what I have heard.

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:30 am

Friday's episode was much, much better than the previous episodes. I especially liked the opinion surveys of what the people on the street thought of the idea of the Dollhouse. The playing of the "Rat" client ("Rebecca's" husband) I thought was fantastic, and really brought out not only Ballard's opposing philosophy but also underlined what I hope will be the theme of the show as a whole.

Speaking of, I really didn't expect Ballard's neighbor to be a Doll, though I suppose it makes sense that they would have a more than one avenue of surviellance on him. However, my respect for Ballard dropped a few notches. He really shouldn't have been talking about an open case with a civilian, regardless of whether the rest of the bureau thinks he's a nutjob.

Good stuff overall.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:17 am

Yeh, really enjoyed this episode alot more, it built up alot of characters, opened up some interesting plot threads, and more importantly focused on some interesting events in the dollhouse, hopefully this isnt just a one off in quality.

LKW · Post by **LKW** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:43 am

Yeah, the producers have pretty consistenly claimed that ep 6 was the beginning of a big roll which carries through to a crazy finale - though, to be safe, I'll note that critics were sent a disc with eps 6&8 to review - possibly indicating a bit of a drop in 7 (but the preview looks pretty nice, to me...).

And yes, "Man on the Street" was a nice jump in scope of the series, development of some of the characters - Adelle and Ballard, as well as Mellie (in more ways than one) - and just generally quality programming. So, what's up with Echo's message to Ballard? Someone besides Alpha's going after the 'house?

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:26 am

So, Dollhouse has reached the end of its first season. It was pretty entertaining, brought up some interesting moral and philosophical points, and had an interesting and unique story mechanism. However, it really hasn't delved deeply into any particular point, and none of the (non-Doll) characters really seemed to have developed all that much over the course of the season. Even Echo's emerging "composite event" seems to have washed out.

On the plus side, I think the actors have been doing a really good job; they all really seem to connect with their parts.

LKW · Post by **LKW** » Sun May 10, 2009 2:41 am

Yeah,I quite enjoyed it, was blown away at times... One thing I think it did well was give us an endpoint which will work well enough if it needs to.

And I agree about the excellent cast. I suppose there were occasions where I may not have been as impressed with an odd performance - but all of them gave moments which quite impressed.

It did feel a bit to me like it could have used a full season, or at least some more eps, to bulid up to where it ended up... but I guess it started too slowly for others, so....

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun May 10, 2009 9:45 am

LKW wrote: It did feel a bit to me like it could have used a full season, or at least some more eps, to bulid up to where it ended up... but I guess it started too slowly for others, so....

It isnt that they could have used more eps, its that sooo many of the episodes that were there were pointless. The singer episode for instance... Sure it was an episode that was there for the purpose of giving us an idea of how the Dollhouse concept worked, but not only could it have been a better and more interesting storyline for Echo, but they could have weaved in links to the overarching plot with Alpha, even if you dont see him...

Similar to maybe Sylar in the first season of Heroes, it was ages until you actually saw him (in shadows) and longer before you saw him do anything, yet the menace he represented was successfully cemented.

And IMO the show got good, but was still way off.

Finale - There was alot I enjoyed, the revelation about Whiskey (even tho there was a fairly decent clue last week), Adam Tudyk as Alpha, fantastic, Ballard (I like the character, and very much like the actor), the scene with Alpha and Whiskey torturing the guy, all the flashbacks.

However, there was loads of massive problems I had with it as well. It was obvious "Omega/Echo" was going to turn on Alpha, painfully obvious infact. Alpha dropping her disk and it landing perfectly balanced on a thin ledge.... And the crap as way in which he got away. He dropped the disk and that was the last we saw of him, all we find out is that he somehow escaped despite Boyd seemingly following him. Another big issue I had was him promising to work for them as long as they released November, it just didn't feel right to me, it was Echo he had obsessed about throughout the series, why did he demand only her release? It didnt feel right.

Overall for me personally, it was a show that has a great concept but has fallen short in its execution. It's just... I'm not sure how well the idea can translate in to a consistently good show, Whedons best feature is his humanisation of characters, how can you do that with characters who get completely different (and incredibly bland and boring) personalities each week?

The normal characters as well, I dont like DeWitt at all, Topher is probably the most Whedon character, but he hasnt come over as anything other than a neurotic, obsessive, child like geek and Boyd. Only one I really like (bar Ballard, and even that is on thin ice some times) is Whiskey/Saunders.

I'd give the good eps high 8's but the bad eps low 6's, which means I'd probs give the show on a whole a 7/10.

I hope it returns, cos its Whedon, and the ideas are there, and hopefully backlash from the first season will make them kick it in to high gear... But whether it will return or even deserves to? I'm not too sure.

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:33 am

I definitely agree about the finale having some loopy stuff. As for Ballard, his switch seemed odd to me too, but it makes sense that he'd either have to cut a deal or Dewitt would have him killed. Releasing November also makes sense, considering Ballard's relationship to her, which was at least somewhat real, rather than his obsession with Carolyn. Once he found the MacGuffin he may have realize she was safer in the Dollhouse now that they know Alpha is gunning for her.

Speaking of, this episode doesn't explain who was hacking the dolls. I thought it was Alpha, but I don't remember them doing anything that would really help him; even though he's crazy (which Tudyk plays very well) he has shown a remarkable ability to plan.

For the future, I don't mind the episodic plots (was a time when most shows had nothing but episodic plots [Star Trek:OS/TNG]) as long as they are interesting, but I do question the show's long term appeal.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun May 10, 2009 11:49 am

The hacking question is interesting, from my poor memory I just now presumed it was Dominic, who worked for the NSA, but it obviously couldnt be because in order to hack them as sleeper agents you would need someone of Tophers ability.

From what I remember about what was said (November and Echo hacked to warn Ballard to stay away right?) it wouldnt fit in with anything said or seen about Alpha.

I would have liked to know more about the mindwipe (that they suspected was by Alpha) on Echo in the ep where she plays the theif.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sat May 16, 2009 11:47 pm

Dollhouse has been renewed!!

Amazing...

Sadly it comes with a slight sting, as Amy Acker has just had her show Happy Town picked up as a series for ABC so it looks as tho Amy Acker will either not be in the show, or be in it in a reduced capacity... And since her plot threads became the most interesting towards the end of season 1, and it looked as if they would be investigated further in season 2, it looks as if now we wont get that

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Sun May 17, 2009 12:21 pm

Awesome. That is a shame about Acker; she seemed to be primed as a replacement for the chick who was playing Novemeber. On that other hand, I can definitely see her working in a reduced capacity through-out the season, maybe with some major parts at the end (which they could film first). Or Whedon and crew will do something clever. We'll have to wait and see.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:43 pm

GOSH DARN YOU WHEDON!!!!

Is anyone else still watching this show??

I just got up to date with season 2 (after ignoring it for ages, out of disappointment of the season premiere) and considering it only has a select few episodes left (2... maybe 3?) I am extemely pissed off at Whedon for finally making me give a damn about this show... It has finally hit its stride, with the bigger picture being opened up, and the episodic storylines becoming far more interesting than "personality of the week"....

The way theyre setting up the show now would be perfect for a third and final season, here is hoping the final episodes arent a rush to wrap things up.

Transformer Kamen · Post by **Transformer Kamen** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:51 pm

I actually had completely the opposite reaction--really liking the episodic feel of the first and (most of) the second seasons. The last few episodes have really seemed like season 3 being crammed in at the last moment. Basically, everything after the thing with the Senator has really disappointed.