Ye Olde Doctor Who Thread.

[inflatable dalek]

I like the funeral atmosphere, the scenes with the Watcher (which are downright spooky) and Tom seeming genuinely ****ed off with all these kids he's been lumbered with. The regeneration effect itself it pretty good as well, shame about the studio grassy knoll and the unconvincing fall. Paddy kingsland reusing a bit of his score from Hitch-Hikers at that point is fairly distracting to me as well.

The rest of it though, just falls apart when it gets to Logopolis. And I'm still not sure why these advanced aliens would need a copy of a 1980's Earth radio telescope (and indeed, how said telescope stops the Universe collapsing despite the most advanced thing in the building being a walkman). Nor why after a decade of non stop alien invasions we'd be so ****ing stupid as to be sending radio beams out into space to invite more in.

Plus, the Doctor causing the destruction of huge chunks of the Universe by complete accident in taking the Master to Logopolis in the first place sort of undoes all the good he's done and goes completely unaddressed.

[Cliffjumper]

Yeh, the whole central plot is just so muddy... Try explaining fairly concisely what it's about, for bonus points without refering to the regeneration/Watcher stuff... The ones you can't imagine the pitch for are nearly always the ones written by the script-editor.

In a way, it really reminds me of Earthshock - the way stuff just seems to happen in the last episode especially just to up the stakes a bit. It might be my memory (it's very much one I don't pay much attention to when I do rewatches) but IIRC Nyssa's reintroduction is awful too - something along the lines of the mute Watcher convincing her he's a friend of the Doctor's and transporting her from Traken in some vague way for next to no reason (and I think just sharing exposition with Adric for the rest of the story).

[inflatable dalek]

My favourite bit is when Adric has to take one of the girls off to one side and explain the entire plot so far to them in thirty seconds out of our earshot. What does he say to them?

I do love the stuff on the Bypass though, despite the Action Man Aunty. It does say a lot about the story and the season as a whole that the death of a character who was already a TV icon did so badly the BBC2 repeat a year later got better viewing figures.

The problem with several of the regeneration stories is they tend to come at the point when the people involved were running on empty, Tenth Planet, Spiders and Logopolis all suffer really badly from it. The strange thing is The War Games doesn't so much despite arguably having more reason for doing so.

[Cliffjumper]

Ahhh, but the War Games has one of the all-time trump cards in the Time Lords. Don't get me wrong, I love Deadly Assassin (though now I come to think of it, it's about the only Gallifrey-based story I have much time for and it might make a noble sacrifice to shut up all the Timesex morons), but it would have been fantastic if they'd managed to keep the race that mysterious and hells-to-betsy scary.

[inflatable dalek]

The End of Time at least did a lot to rectify that, if you want to make the Time Lords shit scary again having Timothy Dalton as the lead one is a step in the right direction. Plus the idea the Doctor had been over eulogising them with rose tinted glasses for the last five years was very nicely done.

Indeed, in general the new series has gotten the Time Lords right through their absence, they've seemed a lot more powerful in recounted tales and one well done flashback. And come on, as awful as the rest of the Master story was how awesome was getting not only an actual costume from The Deadly Assasin but recreated War Games outfits?. Oddly the costume designer hated the collar and took a lot of persuading to get it out of storage (there's a pic of David Tennent wearing full Time Lord regalia out there that was done as a costume test), ironically I think the thirty odd year old one was actually a little better than the new slightly simpler ones made for the last 10 story.

Yeah, I can wax lyrical on the differences in Time Lord collars that you really have to squint at to spot. The chicks dig it.

In more serious news Ingrid Pitt died today. Never again will I see her at a collectors fair merrily selling pictures of herself with her tits out (she knew her audience if nothing else).

[Halfshell]

Yeh, the whole central plot is just so muddy... Try explaining fairly concisely what it's about, for bonus points without refering to the regeneration/Watcher stuff...

The Master attempts to blackmail the universe into appointing him supreme ruler, by means of sabotaging the planet Logopolis - whose inhabitants mumble complex mathematical formulae to keep reality in check.

... now, if you'd said without making it sound bollocks, we'd have been in real trouble.

IIRC Nyssa's reintroduction is awful too - something along the lines of the mute Watcher convincing her he's a friend of the Doctor's and transporting her from Traken in some vague way for next to no reason

Pretty much my recollection too.

The whole thing's a car crash. Not helped by Tom being in a visible sulk for the duration.

[Skyquake87]

That is indeed Nyssa's introduction into Logopolis. Awful, 'will this do?' nonsense. Baker looks like he's just waiting for this all to be over thorughout, and none of the assistants are particularly likeable. Teegan's reason for being in the Tardis starts off as amusing, but becomes silly. She stays onboard to ensure she gets back to her own time...despite having ample opportunity to do just that! There's no sense of her wanting embark on wacky adventures in time and space, which just makes her inclusion redundant. Its annoying, because the stuff with her aunt and her setting off for her new career in the airline industry are all very well done, and it wouldn't have taken much to add a few lines of dialogue to explain her reasons for wanting to stay with the Doctor.

Got through the second part of Castrovalva this morning and all the good work done in the first part is undone by a lot of padding scenes in the Tardis with Nyssa and Tegan reading information off of Ceefax, and the Docotr still being incapacitated - and that guff with building a cabinet to lug him around in. The Master's 'evil' plan seems opaque and his motivations unclear - sure he wants to bump off the Doctor, but what then? At least Adric gets to do something interesting other than providing exposition, by being the Master's captive audience, which makes for a refreshing change for the character (so dull I found it hard to give a shit when he died in Earthshock, I was just thinking thank **** he's gone). Hope it picks up a bit after this.

[Heinrad]

Strangely enough, I always thought Castrovalva hung together better as a book. Tegan's reason for staying was more down to not having much choice. Security had shown up and was trying to drag them all away, so it was either stay and answer a lot of questions that she had no hope of answering without being dumped into the nearest psych ward, or go with the groggy alien and his socially inept friends.

Which, if she'd had a few seconds to think about, she might have taken the stay behind option.

And I love the Time Lords in Deadly Assassin, for precisely the same reason that the interviewee in the documentary hates them. Every time we'd seen them up to this point, it was either in a courtroom or control room setting, barring the odd CIA operative. We get a glimpse of their society, even if only the upper eschalons of it. They can't be all benevolance and peace if they execute people for interference, can they?

[inflatable dalek]

Oddly enough the original plan would have been for the Watcher to bring either Sarah Jane or Leela to Logopolis instead of Nyssa (who was just created as a one off character for Traken). That would have made even less sense considering Nyssa at least has a beef with the Master and has information about Traken at this point. "Well you see Doctor, the strange white ghost thought you might like to look at my legs one last time before you pop your clogs".

At least Adric gets to do something interesting other than providing exposition, by being the Master's captive audience, which makes for a refreshing change for the character (so dull I found it hard to give a shit when he died in Earthshock, I was just thinking thank **** he's gone). Hope it picks up a bit after this.

Also, whilst Adric's strung up you can see what made JNT cast him in the role (possibly completely untrue and unfair rumours, but to be honest it would actually make more sense for Watterhouse to have been cast due to being good in the sack than anyone thinking he could act...)

[Cliffjumper]

The End of Time at least did a lot to rectify that, if you want to make the Time Lords shit scary again having Timothy Dalton as the lead one is a step in the right direction. Plus the idea the Doctor had been over eulogising them with rose tinted glasses for the last five years was very nicely done.

Was that the one with a million twats? Yeh, skipped the panto, didn't fancy an extra big slice of untalented **** for Xmas. TBH, the Doctor's reverence of the Time Lords for most of the CBBC stuff is so obviously rose-tinted compared to the barely-concealed contempt on show for the majority of the old stuff.


Don't mind Castrovalva, though its' miles better once it gets to, well, Castrovalva. Davison's impressions are especially embarrassing, as are just about any scene where Nyssa and Tegan talk to each other (which is all of them) - "You taught me about 'if', remember!", "Theese thing must have a floight manuol", etc, etc, etc.

I love Tegan overall, but she's shit for most of Season 19. "I wont to speek to the pilot!!!!"

[inflatable dalek]

Was that the one with a million twats? Yeh, skipped the panto, didn't fancy an extra big slice of untalented **** for Xmas. TBH, the Doctor's reverence of the Time Lords for most of the CBBC stuff is so obviously rose-tinted compared to the barely-concealed contempt on show for the majority of the old stuff.

It's strange really, I enjoyed it despite it having a lot of the same stuff in it that made me not like, say, the Davros or first Master showings very much. I guess partly because the more indulgent elements were a little more justified for a regeneration story, but also it was simply done better than a lot of the preceeding years stories were.

It's amazing how much better Simm's Master works in a context where he is shit and useless and effectively a pawn of bigger players rather than supposed to be taken seriously as a villain in his own right.

Don't mind Castrovalva, though its' miles better once it gets to, well, Castrovalva. Davison's impressions are especially embarrassing, as are just about any scene where Nyssa and Tegan talk to each other (which is all of them) - "You taught me about 'if', remember!", "Theese thing must have a floight manuol", etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, generally I hate any scenes where just random people can work out how to operate the Tardis unaided (and early Davison is full of it for some reason, Time Flight and the BA pilots being the worst). But the idea of the city is great, the final twist is well thought out and (without spoiling too much for Skyquake) there's a great performance from Ainley that makes one particular element really work in a way subsequent efforts to do the same really don't.

Plus Davison is fantastiv throughout, especially considering he's having to work his performance backwards thanks to the drastic out of order shooting (apparently the stories they shot first were made with the assumption his eventual debut would be by the Meglos boys, lucky escape there) so he can present the new and uncertain Doctor despite having already found his groove.

[Cliffjumper]

It's amazing how much better Simm's Master works in a context where he is shit and useless and effectively a pawn of bigger players rather than supposed to be taken seriously as a villain in his own right.

Was he meant to be taken seriously the first time around? I thought the whole thing was some elaborate tax dodge. It might've worked a bit better if someone had pointed out to Simm that this wasn't the Hartlepool Apollo and he wasn't doing Widow Twankey, or if they'd not written a scene which involved the alleged villain mincing like a twat to one of the Scissor Sisters' poorer efforts. Or if they'd written a plot for the second half or something.

I don't think it would have saved the standard CBBC "Right, we've got everyone into this right pickle for the season finale, how we going to get them out of it? I know, magic!" shitfest, but keeping Jacobi on or hiring an actor would have made the whole thing a lot less irritating.

(apparently the stories they shot first were made with the assumption his eventual debut would be by the Meglos boys, lucky escape there)

Ahh, there's not much wrong with the script for Meglos (bar the preposterously unbalanced technology v religion subplot - like Who's going to side with God on that one...), it's more the realisation - the campy Gaztaks, the way Jacqueline Hill would never have got cast for the role if she hadn't been on the shown best part of 20 years before, that mediator bloke who played the shit priest in Survivors, Meglos being a cactus in a jar, the way Tom and Lalla both obviously think the time loop scenes are pointless (helpful hint - just loop the damn footage, don't get the actors to repeat the scene, they'll just get bored...)... I'd rather watch it than Traken or Logopolis, anyway.

I've generally got a lot of time for Season 18 - it's the show's first real attempt to explore some big concepts, look a bit slicker and (best of all) throw out the remains old boys network of writers and directors who'd kicked around for most of the seventies - no more Bob ****ing Baker or Terry ****ing Nation, reduced chances of Pennant Roberts and Douglas Camfield. Well, Camfield might have been dead, but, y'know.

It's just a shame the last two stories were such absolute shite, especially as the basic idea of bringing back the Master to finish off the Doctor was sound.

[inflatable dalek]

I don't think it would have saved the standard CBBC "Right, we've got everyone into this right pickle for the season finale, how we going to get them out of it? I know, magic!" shitfest, but keeping Jacobi on or hiring an actor would have made the whole thing a lot less irritating.

It's hard to think of a more misjudged performance in all of Who, Richard Briers comes close but at least the Caretaker wasn't supposed to be the shows main recurring villain.

Meglos being a cactus in a jar

I do love the big dramatic pull back to reveal a cactus that forms the centrepiece of the next time trailer though.

I've generally got a lot of time for Season 18 - it's the show's first real attempt to explore some big concepts, look a bit slicker and (best of all) throw out the remains old boys network of writers and directors who'd kicked around for most of the seventies - no more Bob ****ing Baker or Terry ****ing Nation, reduced chances of Pennant Roberts and Douglas Camfield. Well, Camfield might have been dead, but, y'know.

I think the Adams stuff had big concepts that are just as good (and of course it was season 17 that got New Scientist coverage despite Bidmead making it required reading), if anything season 18 tends to have ideas that are much more complete nonsense (a time loop you can out think and so on).

Fandom in general tends to be fairly anti season 18 these days, partly because by bringing the show so firmly into the 80's its tended to date a bit more than even the other JNT stuff. Bidmead (or rather Christopher HAMILTON Bidmead as he insists on these days) coming across as a man who makes RTD look humble in the various DVD special features has turned a lot of people against him and his tenure.

Personally I enjoy both seasons 17 and 18 a lot, both have flaws (and I think it's fair to say that picking Adams- a guy already famous for missing deadlines constantly- as script editor was a bad move) but there's a lot to like as well. And I may be alone in this but I've always thought the red costume was lovely as well.

It's just a shame the last two stories were such absolute shite, especially as the basic idea of bringing back the Master to finish off the Doctor was sound.

I think a large part of it is the season being such a mess to make that they didn't have much more to give by the end. Mind, I do like Traken though.

[Cliffjumper]

It's hard to think of a more misjudged performance in all of Who, Richard Briers comes close but at least the Caretaker wasn't supposed to be the shows main recurring villain.

Briers only really gets bad when he's possessed - last episode? Maybe last episode and a half? - IMO - he's suited quite nicely to the fussy bureaucrat Chief Cleaner. It helps that Paradise Towers doesn't think it's 24, though... Briers cocking it up in a fairly bizarre, lightweight story is not so jarring (what is jarring, though, is that Kroagnon very nearly wins - most of the population of the Towers seem to be wiped out... seeing as he seems to be planing to stop once they're empty...). RTD trying to convince us the Master is a serious threat to the Doctor and the Earth in general, not so much, especially as they have to conjure up all sorets of bollocks to get it to even half-work.

Bombast aside, "Sound of Drums"/"Last of the Timelords" is dire because basically nothing works... Simm doesn't bear sole responsibility by any means, but he certainly didn't help matters at all.

One of the big problems with the new format (from the four series I've seen, natch) is the need for big brash American-style "season finale" episodes when the writing staff so blatantly aren't up to it.

Fandom in general tends to be fairly anti season 18 these days, partly because by bringing the show so firmly into the 80's its tended to date a bit more than even the other JNT stuff. Bidmead (or rather Christopher HAMILTON Bidmead as he insists on these days) coming across as a man who makes RTD look humble in the various DVD special features has turned a lot of people against him and his tenure.

This is why fandom in general are complete twats. Alan Moore? Sam Peckinpah? Clint Eastwood? Mark Millar? All utter aresholes, but it doesn't colour their output.

Personally I enjoy both seasons 17 and 18 a lot, both have flaws (and I think it's fair to say that picking Adams- a guy already famous for missing deadlines constantly- as script editor was a bad move) but there's a lot to like as well. And I may be alone in this but I've always thought the red costume was lovely as well.

Yeh, I think they both have positives - broadly, Season 17 is more fun, Season 18 is better serious TV (obviously both having big exceptions). I've never really seen it as an either/or thing TBH.

[inflatable dalek]

Yeh, I think they both have positives - broadly, Season 17 is more fun, Season 18 is better serious TV (obviously both having big exceptions). I've never really seen it as an either/or thing TBH.

Yep, I think it helps that time is a great leveller and season 18 doesn't seem as drastically different now as it must have at the time. Mind, the difference between Nimon and Hive is far greater than any other two stories in each year. Indeed, I don't think it would have been so shocking to people if Shada (decent budget, use of continuity and old clip flashbacks) had actually gone out.

Though of course, for Joe Public there probably wasn't that much of an obvious difference, and 18 certainly isn't as glossy as Buck Rogers would have looked.

[Skyquake87]

Heh, the '80s-ness of JNTs first season is really noticeable. In some ways, I think its a shame that Who switched from film to video for a lot of the 1980s. The filmic outdoor sequences are a lot more forgiving to a show made without the resources it really needs.

I'll take Simm's slightly helter-skelter version of the Master over Ainley's chuckling buffoon. Too often during the Davison era, the Master shows up and he's just pratting about with some stupid evil plan and wittering on about the Doctor's "goodness" to underline that he is the villain. To me, that's way more pantomime than Simm's version. I like Ainley and think he had real potential ('Mark Of The Rani' shows a noticeable improvement in the Master's latest cunning plan, and the period setting suits Ainley to a tee). For the most part though, he's up there with Megatron in the 'daft schemes' stakes.

I liked the queasy roller coaster ride of the Tenth Doctor's last two episodes, and unlike most of RTD's finales, this one actually hangs together very well. I have a lot of time for RTD's tenure. Its not perfect, but its colourful fun. And better than the awful repetitive Merlin.

I'd be very interested to see Moffatt's take on the Master at some point. Have you seen the Eleven's first series, Cliffjumper? I know this porbably isn't the thread for it, but you seem so disappointed by RTDs more soap-like appraoch, that I'd be interested to see what you made of Matt Smith's season, which reins in a lot of the stuff you found distasteful. Indeed, the slight lack of warmth (i.e. slightly emotional stuff) in series 5 was a bit of a jolt - in a good way!

[inflatable dalek]

IIRC the extent of Cliffy's exposure to Smith has been a scene from the Dalek story, which he hated (in fairness though, so did everyone else, I seem to be the only one who found it silly fun).

Whilst I think the Moff era so far has been much more solid than the last RTD year I don't think it's styalistically different enough for Cliffy to be likely to get much out of it. I could be wrong though, and it would be interesting to hear his thoughts on at least one episode, if only to find out what he thinks of the new Doctor. Though I can also apriciate him not wanting to put himself thought it...

I like Ainley's Master, mostly terrible stories but at least he's always bringing a sense of fun to things.

Main flaw in the last Tennant for me was the bloke who wrote the novelization of the first X-Files film, completely irrelevant and despite being bigged up as a super villain becomes so minor his eventual arrest happens off screen.

[Cliffjumper]

Yeh, with the Smith stuff it's simply that I've patiently watched the first four series of the new stuff, and on the balance really didn't like much of it at all, especially after second viewings (I think the count comes to something like six episodes, and most of those have flaws - with the exception of "Human Nature", which isn't as good as the book but is still very good (though I would literally stab a baby to have a McCoy version done with a character that wasn't a spastic taking Martha's place), that's a handful of episodes I find as tolerable as, I dunno, "Dragonfire", "Face of Evil" or "The Abominable Snowmen", bog-standard stuff.

I've no real desire to watch the new stuff on the off-chance it might have improved a bit when chances are it's still pretty rubbish and just comes across well compared to the fetid turd that was the Tate season... I've got other stuff to watch, both that I haven't seen before (did you know you can download whole 1980s Grand Prix now? With Murray Walker and James Hunt) and that I have that doesn't make me want to go out and hurt people.

Plus he looks like a child molester, and I've already got five seasons of Doctor Nonce. Thingy having nice legs and some sort of eating disorder isn't my thing, though the amount of people who tell me it's good because the companion is apparently good-looking is worrying - Freema was hot and look what happened there.

I like Ainley, but yeh, the Master's lacking when they slip into the old problem of making him semi-regular - Time-Flight, King's Demons and Planet of Fire are pretty awful. Use him in Castrovalva. give him a spin in the Five Doctors birthday bash, then Mark of the Rani. Bluntly none of Doctor Who's villains stand up to once-a-year exposure - there even seems to be faint apathy developing to the Daleks now they're once again a fixture on the show (though bad writing and the need to make every group of Daleks the lastest ever who are totally wiped out but still turn up next time with shitloads of spaceships... it can't be a coincidence that the best new stories have been the ones where there ware one and six of them for the most part, can it... doesn't help).

I think Ainley fits the tone of the scripts better, TBH. We're never shown him actually acheiving much, whereas the Simm version is meant to basically win and take over the Earth before losing because of a pile-up of shit plot devices, whereas the Ainley version is trying to hack into the Xeraphin/muck up the Magna Carta/sort out his own problems after shrinking himself/getting Cat People DNA.

This, to me, is why the older stuff's fails are a bit more forgivable. Logopolis aside, none of those stories are given a year-plus build-up (actually, Logopolis inclusive - despite what people will tell you, Season 18 isn't particularly grim and doom-laden, and Tom Baker's performance isn't particularly different compared to, say, Season 13...) and cause big seismic ripples. No-one tried to pretend the King's Demons was some big universe-shaking epic, y'know?

I'd also say, Kalid from Time-Flight aside, Ainley's performance is generally pretty good - he's usually one of the better things in 1980s Master stories. While Simm wasn't all of the problems with Sound of Drums, he was certainly a big noticeable one. Hell, with a little help from RTD's hubris, he managed to total Utopia in about 45 seconds.

[inflatable dalek]

Plus he looks like a child molester, and I've already got five seasons of Doctor Nonce. Thingy having nice legs and some sort of eating disorder isn't my thing, though the amount of people who tell me it's good because the companion is apparently good-looking is worrying - Freema was hot and look what happened there.

Smith's actually brilliant, absolutely spot on casting. Much like Tennant even in the weaker stories (and I don't think there's any outright terrible episodes despite the Sillurian one rubbing me up the wrong way, the big problem with this was there just being a run of capable but instantly forgettable stories in the middle) he manages to stay engaging. I'll even forgive him loving Tomb of the Cybermen to an almost obsessive level (I do wonder what other classic series DVD's they sent him to make him think that was the best. It'll be interesting to see if his pestering to get old school Mondas Cybermen back actually works, Tennant didn't manage it with the Zygons...).

Karren (who looks perfectly fine to me after careful examination) can be a bit more variable, when the writings not good all she gets to do is stand and scowl whilst making random references to Scotland, but when it's good there's a nice Romana/Tom Steed/Peel style banter to them. It'll be interesting to see how the first full time threesome in the new series Tardis works out next year.

there even seems to be faint apathy developing to the Daleks now they're once again a fixture on the show (though bad writing and the need to make every group of Daleks the lastest ever who are totally wiped out but still turn up next time with shitloads of spaceships... it can't be a coincidence that the best new stories have been the ones where there ware one and six of them for the most part, can it... doesn't help).

Yep, though at least part of that isn't a problem now the Daleks are back permanently. Whilst I think them gaining a victory in err... Victory helped redress some of the erosion a succession of stupid defeats have done to them a gap really wouldn't hurt. It's something of a shame that all the good work Rob Sherman did in re-establishing their threat and power after years of Kit Katt adverts and lazy jokes has been almost completely undone.

[Skyquake87]

Ha! I'd agree about the Daleks. I'd had enough of them after Tennants Season 2, and every time they've returned its smelt of either contractual obligations (the Nation Estate only allowing their use if they show up all the time forever and ever in the new series, perhaps?) or a marketing opportunity, which there was some credence to in Private Eye not so long ago.

I'm rewatching Series 5 at the mo, and finding it very good. there's only Silurian 2-parter that doesn't work for me. Chris Chibnall really seems to struggle with Doctor Who. He gets it, but it can't seem to make it work. A shame considering the good stuff he did on Torchwood and Life On Mars.

Anyway, yes, Cliffjumper - spot on about the reuse of enemies in Who. I'm generally in favour of newer stuff, enemies-wise. The Weeping Angels have been a great new addition, and I like the Juddoon and those skull faced ones that flew around in that big rock. The older villains like the Daleks and Sontarans haven't noticebly been improved by their return (cosmetic changes aside), and the more I've rewatched them, the less interesting I find the revamped Cybermen.

Still haven't watched the rest of Castrovalva yet, but have finally finished Inferno. Its a good story overall, but like a lot of the six parters (and some four parters), it doesn't half tread water in places with folk just standing around gassing about the immediate danger they are all in unless someone does something - well bloody well get on with it then!!! Christ, in reality you'd all be dead by now if you'd spent so long procrastinating about what to do! There's also a bit of a struggle to cross between the two parallel worlds and keep the story moving on. The parts where we flash back to the Doctor's world don't do much to progress the story. Its a shame as it really slows the pace of the story and any jeopardy instantly evaporates as time ticks on... In one area at least, this is where the slightly pacy nature of New Who wins. There's an economy of storytelling on show which keeps things moving. I'd like to say that in the old show such asides would allow for greater character development, but all too often that seems not to be the case, with folk just gabbing away for the sake of it. Its fine in stories with a more languid pace, like The Keeper Of Traken (which I actually really like, despite it being a load of pompous folk in cloaks bitching at each other and the regular cast being locked up all the time), but with stuff like Inferno and even The Talons Of Weng Chiang, it just slows things down to a crawl and gets in the way of the story.