Non Lethal weapons, and a Decepticon Matrix

ChipChase · Post by **ChipChase** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:28 am

Hi,

I'm new to the forums, but I had a thought that I'd like to share, and some opinions on as well.

It seems to me that all the transformers weapons are non lethals. The weapons descriptions on the autobots and decepticons personal weapons don't seem to be intended to kill. For example, the null ray, Starscream's personal weapon doesn't kill. If anyone can provide a specific example of a weapon that would kill a transformer that is used by another transformer please share.

There is, however, one transformer weapon that is lethal. Megatron himself. I was trying to figure out why Megatron was able to kill the Autobots on the shuttle, especially Brawn. Then it hit me, up until then, Megatron hadn't actually hit anyone while in gun mode. Going back to the First season eps for proof. Megatron only transforms and fires on Autobots in More than Meets the Eye, Roll for It, and Fire in the Sky. Not once do we see him hit anyone. In Roll for It, we see the destruction that a hit would cause when Skywarp hits the ground in front of Hound and leaves him buried up to his waist.

However, in Fire in the Sky, the episode everyone seems to cite when mentioning that they have seen Brawn take a hit from Megaton before, Brawn is genuinely concerned for his life when Soundwave is firing Megaton at him (although, again, he can't hit him) even though we do see him take a shot from the shoulder cannon.

Even in the movie, after the reformatting, to kill Starscream, Galvatron transforms into his alternate mode (perhaps something similar to his original form). As Galvatron, he is no longer dependent on other decepticons to use his deadliest mode.

As for reasons for this, perhaps there really is a Decepticon Matrix that Megatron possesed. Unlike the autobot matrix that would light the darkest hour, this matrix allows the bearer to kill immortal life forms.

Looking at the toy design, the cannon on megatrons arm does not correspond to the barrel of his gun mode, so perhaps this is why he must transform to kill.

A final reason, is maybe the Transformers creators threw a little gun control message into the mix. Guns have to be held by someone else to kill.

Gruff · Post by **Gruff** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:59 am

all well and good i spose but prowl is killed by Scavenger of the Constructicons and Starscream, Scrapper and Mixmaster (i think) help take out Ironhide and Ratchet before Megsy finishes em off

ChipChase · Post by **ChipChase** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:20 am

after watching the movie again, it looks like Scavenger only fires one shot, however, there are are two hits to Prowl (you can hear two recoils) Could Megatron been the source of the second shot? For my argument to be valid, then he must be the origin.

You are right, the other Decepticons fire and hit the Honda Vans, but, the final cut we see is Starscream firing three times, and then Ironhide and Rachet fall. Ironhide was probably already mortally wounded when Megatron finished him off.

Then there is Optimus Prime. Since Megatron "crushes him with his bare hands", he may have been able to use his power to kill just enough to cause Prime's slow death. However, since Prime isn't really dead (since he does come back ... and resurrection would be a tricky divinity to explain), maybe Megatron should have found some help after all.

That may have been Megatron's greatest weakness then: he could kill, but he requires teamwork to accomplish the act.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:13 pm

Chip, welcome to the board, first of all. A lot of good points raised above, a few of which I'd like to address.

Originally posted by ChipChase
It seems to me that all the transformers weapons are non lethals...If anyone can provide a specific example of a weapon that would kill a transformer that is used by another transformer please share.

Well, the combined assault of Skywarp, Starscream and Thundercracker in Divide & Conquer is enough to put Optimus on his death bed, and would have probably killed him had Ironhide's crew been unsuccessful in their trip to Cybertron.

Originally posted by ChipChase
I was trying to figure out why Megatron was able to kill the Autobots on the shuttle, especially Brawn. Then it hit me, up until then, Megatron hadn't actually hit anyone while in gun mode.

Well, Spike (while trapped inside his Autobot X body) uses Megatron to shoot Optimus in Autobot Spike, and Optimus survives. Also (and someone correct me if my memory is wrong on this one), Soundwave uses Megatron to shoot Prime in the second half of Dinobot Island. Maybe Prime is the only one who can take a shot from Megs...

Originally posted by ChipChase
However, in Fire in the Sky, the episode everyone seems to cite when mentioning that they have seen Brawn take a hit from Megaton before

I think you're thinking of Fire on the Mountain, first of all. The other big problem with the theory is that Megatron himself takes a shot from the cannon when Brawn picks it up, and he survives without much trouble or fanfare.

Originally posted by ChipChase
As for reasons for this, perhaps there really is a Decepticon Matrix that Megatron possesed. Unlike the autobot matrix that would light the darkest hour, this matrix allows the bearer to kill immortal life forms.

I think the ever-cited Decepticon Matrix thing is stretching it a bit, don't you? If not, remember that we've seen Megatron's inner workings (in Microbots), and there was no sign of any Decepticon Matrix.

Blaster · Post by **Blaster** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:12 pm

I'm positive Ironhide takes a shot the same place Brawn does in the Movie in an episode from gun mode Megsy.

There is no way to explain it out then a cheap excuse to kill off characters.

Vin Ghostal · Post by **Vin Ghostal** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:45 pm

Originally posted by Blaster
]There is no way to explain it out then a cheap excuse to kill off characters.

Obviously, but there is still room left for friendly conversation and debate, if you please.

Armorwind · Post by **Armorwind** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:14 pm

There are also many other casualties in the battle at Autobot City. Some may have been hit by Megatron, but I doubt all of them were (such as Wheeljack and Windcharger). Plus, there were probably always plenty of other of casualties without Megatron (such as Kup's war stories suggest in at least the movie) in other various battles.

Also, are we talking about strictly discussing Generation 1, or can we span and extend things (like through Beast Wars and Beast Machines) despite this being the G1 Cartoon/Comic thread?

Grimlock2983 · Post by **Grimlock2983** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:11 am

I'm positive Ironhide takes a shot the same place Brawn does in the Movie in an episode from gun mode Megsy.

This was from "Transport to Oblivion" and Ironhide is injured, according to Prime "badly," but Bumblebee looks worse off later in the episode and Megatron never shot him.

Plasmodium · Post by **Plasmodium** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:06 am

I was going to say Megatron, but since you already did, I cant think of any one SINGLE character capable of destroying another TF. Youd need something with mass firepower, or EMP blasts (which me RPG char uses :P).

RID Scourge · Post by **RID Scourge** » Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:15 am

Well, they do a good job of tearing each other new ones in the comic. Of course, they're also able to rebuild ones, whose brain modules haven't been destroyed in the comics.

myee8 · Post by **myee8** » Thu Aug 21, 2003 7:22 am

It's otherwise too realistic if you have transformers dying in episodes everytime there is a big fight. If you really think about it, one good shot in the head by any G1 transformer's gun would do extensive damage, unless it is something like Wheelie's gun at a gestalt. I mean in reality all of them are pretty bad shots when you consider the shots fired to casualties from them.

Quick Switch · Post by **Quick Switch** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:39 pm

I think the ever-cited Decepticon Matrix thing is stretching it a bit, don't you? If not, remember that we've seen Megatron's inner workings (in Microbots), and there was no sign of any Decepticon Matrix.

The Quintessons debunk the notion of a Decepticon Matrix, I believe in Five Faces of Darkness. Something simple along the lines of "There is no Decepticon Matrix."

Post by **Denyer** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:51 pm

And you trust the Quintessons?

Quick Switch · Post by **Quick Switch** » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:57 pm

And you trust the Quintessons?

Naturally, my good sir.

They built the Transformers, they would know!

At least, one would assume.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:38 am

We're also meant to assume that they didn't notice the possibility of their creations developing sentience, which leads one to wonder exactly what part they played in the development of the race as a whole.

If we're taking things at face value, Vector Sigma was around before Cybertron, meaning that it was either built by the Quints or discovered and used. In the latter scenario, Quint declarations regarding the TFs become even more open to scepticism.

Simply, the Quints are a race of weaselly manipulators, and their pronouncements about as reliable as rehydratable raincoats.

E Nice · Post by **E Nice** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:39 am

Well, the Quints did manage to create drone-like Sharkticons and Alligatorcons and if they ever managed to rebel they finally found a way to neutralize any emerging independence.

Scout · Post by **Scout** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:42 am

Welcome Chip! It's a good observation about the weapons, 'course, I wonder though if that doesn't make sense in terms of Quintessons building them. The consumer goods certainly wouldn't need killing weapons- and only a few military hardware would probably be needed with that capability.... if you follow that logic.

I'm curious...

[quote]Originally posted by Denyer
We're also meant to assume that they didn't notice the possibility of their creations developing sentience, which leads one to wonder exactly what part they played in the development of the race as a whole.[/i]

Wouldn't that leave one to think that all the Quints did was build them, give them basic programming and then fail to notice as that programming 'learned' and then 'corrupted'? That was kind of my take on it. To me, it sounds like they built the original group, which developed further on their own, and then some of that group built others... (whereupon the vector sigma and other option constructicons / Megatron) all occur.

If we're taking things at face value, Vector Sigma was around before Cybertron, meaning that it was either built by the Quints or discovered and used. In the latter scenario, Quint declarations regarding the TFs become even more open to scepticism.
:\ =>(The history of vector sigma- 'which came first'.

) What kind of declarations are you thinking of?

Simply, the Quints are a race of weaselly manipulators, and their pronouncements about as reliable as rehydratable raincoats.
For the most part perhaps- certainly they are manipulators, but then too, some of what they said would make sense in their 10 eyes. I guess it depends on the pronouncements.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:14 am

As a general boot-in-the-ribs to the fatalities speculation, it assumes that all of the fatalities lying around Autobot City in the Movie are caused by Megatron — that's a lot of casualties for one 'Con to notch up. Similarly, it spectacularly fails to hold true in later episodes such as the Japanese series (or any of the comics, for that matter.)

Second point: Megatron doesn't actually have to be held in order to fire in gun mode. Shockwave certainly doesn't, and one would suspect that the same is true of Browning. There have also been numerous crime cases where guns were rigged with pulleys or simply went off spontaneously because of environmental conditions. Guns don't have to be held or directed by a person in order to kill... least of all sentient ones.

Originally posted by Scout
only a few military hardware would probably be needed with that capability.... if you follow that logic.

Okay, you've lost me somewhat... unless you're making an argument based on the Quints selling non-lethal robot soldiers with the intent of prolonging a conflict and being able to sell more hardware.

Originally posted by Scout
Wouldn't that leave one to think that all the Quints did was build them, give them basic programming and then fail to notice as that programming 'learned' and then 'corrupted'? That was kind of my take on it. To me, it sounds like they built the original group

They built bodyshells, but 'personalities' were programmed by Vector Sigma, which states of itself that it preceded the existence of Cybertron.

Now, that could be taken prosaically, meaning that the planet previously held a different name. I tend to take it literally, meaning that the Quints either brought Vector Sigma to Cybertron (and/or built Cybertron) — or they discovered it there (or, for that matter, somewhere else in the universe.

1) There is no reason to assume that Quintessons created TFs in the sense that they programmed their mental functions.

2) There is no reason to assume that Vector Sigma was a Quintesson-built device.

When Quints talk of 'creating' their slave races, they may not have been aware of the level of programming actually implanted into their 'slaves'.

Scout · Post by **Scout** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:57 am

Well, that's true Denyer- you're right on the fatalities not being able to just come from Megatron. However, (due to the Parent programs in the 80's) most of the weapons weren't shown to be fatal even if they sounded like it on the box backs. In the one origin though, the consumer goods wouldn't have need of weapons per say, and the military hardware was shown as being sort of a police-type force, so executioners wouldn't necessarily be needed en masse, but the logic of selling defunct non-threatening machines works well.

Point 2--- true- especially since he has some form of sentience and presumably, body control.

I can't really comment on the Jap tfs, since I'm just learning about them.

As for your other points, #1 I'm not sure I agree on, but I'm not well spoken enough to put it into words, and #2, I agree. The last bit- yes, I don't think they had any clue, because if they had- they wouldn't have done it.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:31 am

Well, one of the first things which happens (and this is a very minor spoiler) is that Sixshot kills Ultra Magnus with great relish.

By the Quints not programming Cybertronian brains, I'm just saying we're led to the conclusion they used Vector Sigma as a proxy. They may not have understood exactly what they'd set in motion; Vector Sigma becomes of an almost mystical manipulator late into the cartoon run.

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Non Lethal weapons, and a Decepticon Matrix

Non Lethal weapons, and a Decepticon Matrix

Ok, Prowl is iffy, however,

Re: Non Lethal weapons, and a Decepticon Matrix