Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Denyer
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

Hasbro has time, even allowing for likely predatory Wal-Mart standard terms (I always think of the classic gherkin example and assume they're as shitty even to other big companies).

The moulds will happily store and be used for a good while before they're written off to be boat anchors or whatever. What I don't really understand is why the recent Arcee got a literally identical re-release so soon whilst the first release was (and still is) on widespread clearance.
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Unicron
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Unicron »

So I cracked open a Legacy Motormaster today and I was surprised by how much dead space there was in the box. Something like half to two thirds of box is empty. I get why, even though the mass and complexity calls for Commander class, if they made the box only as large as necessary, people would balk at paying that price for a leader sized box or smaller.

It just bugs me that they're wasting that much packaging when they've done away with the box windows in the name of being more environmentally friendly.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

If it is just printed cardboard, there's probably relatively little impact from packaging. The impact is the additional shipping and other storage space.

Legacy MM is a litmus test for the brand's future, I think, like bundling is a different type of test. There are a lot of people out there who won't complete a combiner team for lots of different reasons, price aside, so Hasbro will want to do individual releases. A box set for $200 with five bots and lots of bits might feel like better value than 25+25+25+25+100 but it's limiting the audience.

What were the 80s prices of combiner limbs versus team leaders?

https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/threads/ ... 0s.231072/

Suggests about $5 for limbs and about $15 for leaders. So a factor of three.

MM is overconfidence. Rather than design to the market, they've skipped a SKU size.

Legacy Titan Cybertron Metroplex seems like another example of this overconfidence.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Clay »

Well, the Hasbro product convention thing was today, and apparently... they've listened to us? Where getting a double-targetmaster Needlenose, a new Lio Convoy, a brand new character Junkion (or more than one?), Armada Hotshot again, and Tarn?

So... yeah. Broader series choices, new character designs, finishing off the 1988 Decepticon Targetmasters started in 2017... it's neat. I'm sure it'll be offset by deluxe figures costing $49.99 within five years, but for the moment the novelty is nice.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Unicron »

Also they're doing some Transformers themed cards for Magic: The Gathering, which is nice for fans of both, like myself. Guess it's a thing for them to do since the actual Transformers TCG crapped out
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

Needlenose is a nice reveal and the TMs make the price a little more palatable. Lio would've been of interest if I hadn't picked up the RM, and Tarn might have been of interest in the heyday of MTMTE. Kind of interested in the Bomb-Burst that's already been revealed although the ball joints look cheap and will wear -- like Iguanus could have been better in the joints to justify the RRP -- and the size class mixing with the faux Pretenders is a built-in protection from completism.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Skyquake87 »

I've been more interested in the G2 Dragstrip repaint that popped up on pre-orders with little fanfare (£35 though, so er... probably not) out more than anything else..! The reveals were nice and I liked the mix of things, but I'm just not feeling it. Glad it's out there and Legacy has built on the generally excellent design/build/artwork of Siege, but I just can't get into it so much. I guess I've got Generations fatigue..!
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

I see Smyths have already marked Motormaster down, and it's available for home delivery which suggests they didn't bother shipping most of the stock from the warehouse to stores and what they did is shelf-warming.

Personally holding out until someone lists one on eBay they've lost the trailer for.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Yeah, I ended up picking up Motormaster as the mark down was hefty chunk of change against the RRP, having been impressed with Wildrider and Dragstrip. There's been a lot of stuff showing up with price cuts lately. Odds and sods admittedly - it's not like the whole line's tanking, or it's the early 2010s when whole waves of stuff ended up remaindered, but I do wonder if the higher prices we're being asked to pay as costs rise are going to bite into the new year.

...mind you, HasLab seems to be working out for Transformers so far. There's clearly enough people willing to stump up a few hundred quid for toys. Wonder if we'll see more and more of this MTO stuff moving forward as the toy market continues to shrink and we end the equivalent of model railway enthusiasts (also toys, but shh...)
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Denyer
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

Well, it's already basically the business model of eg Super7 on things like Thundercats & TF "Ultimates" -- pre-orders and rounding up the production numbers for breakages etc. There must still be some margin on them for retailers or the collectibles store I got the AM Bombshell from wouldn't have run a sale on the first wave of the latter, even if they probably didn't have that many units ordered.

Crowd funds by big companies do tank when they're phoned in, so they're only suitable for "wow" products -- the Haslab Rancor failure has probably taught them that.

Still can't believe that the Titan Cybertron Metroplex was viable in the first place.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Denyer wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:00 amCrowd funds by big companies do tank when they're phoned in, so they're only suitable for "wow" products -- the Haslab Rancor failure has probably taught them that.
...and the Engines of Vengeance one. Shame really, as I like Ghost Rider... but not for $350. That was a misfire. Mind you, I don't know which other GR they could have done. Blaze is the only one with any current media and he's already had 3 figures, and one of those came with his bike.

Funny how Hasbro seemed to have the character selections sussed for crowd funded Transformers products, but have been off the mark for other stuff.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Warcry »

Denyer wrote: Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:00 am Still can't believe that the Titan Cybertron Metroplex was viable in the first place.
With the way Hasbro has been approaching their "big figures" lately, I think they see less risk of it winding up massively clearanced than there was a few years ago. It seems like a smaller initial production run followed up by reissues to meet excess demand is the new order of business, to avoid the mess of clearanced Titans that had to get cleared out during Titans Return. I'd be a bit surprised if Metroplex gets that second and third production run like some of the big WFC toys, though. Was anyone really asking for this? It's a cool figure but it didn't seem like there was much demand for the character before it got made, not like (for example) Tidal Wave or Animated Omega Supreme.
Skyquake87 wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 5:50 pm Funny how Hasbro seemed to have the character selections sussed for crowd funded Transformers products, but have been off the mark for other stuff.
Transformers fans are used to buying figures at a bunch of different price points, and that probably makes a difference. I'm used to the idea that a Transformer might cost $100+ and I have an idea in my head what a good $100+ Transformer looks like. I can imagine these HasLab projects might cause a ton of sticker shock in Legends or Star Wars collectors. A lot of them are used to the idea of never having to pay more than $20 or $30 for their toys.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

True, as costs go up they're not going to commit to particularly large runs, and extensive design and mould reuse is embedded in the processes these days, but with the biggest figures it's going to get them so far... the large number of unique parts and limited reuse potential on Titans must give them pause now that they've gotten through the original citybots. Animated OS seems like a conceivable Ark reuse, but the Ark itself would've been a shot in the dark and doesn't have the same wide appeal as Metroplex et al.

Estimates and influencing factors on moulds so seem to vary a lot, though. KO producers can balance volumes and price, and whilst overseas sales on 3P stuff are largely out of view, they're probably not in official territory either -- but unofficial alternatives keep coming.

RE: expectations, I can see that on prices and crowdfunds to an extent. Like LEGO, TFs have always been relatively expensive compared to alternatives in the toy aisle due to complexity, parts count, die cast (back then) etc. Also, whilst SW fandom seems to like updated versions of originals it seems more resistant to official reissues, KOs and repro parts devaluing originals. (Or maybe that's just a vocal minority; that type of collector does exist with TFs as well, but we seem more accepting of the fact that endless reissues have happened and original moulds have found their way to KO producers). But the relevance to crowdfunds is that more collectors will only be inclined to spend big bucks if something's original, other stuff is expected to be, as you say, priced like toys rather collectibles.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/busine ... -rcna62354

I'd say it's at least as much kids being priced out and mobile games etc (without a credit card attached) providing more entertainment for outlay.

But at least that's some recognition that kids are unlikely to be the ones asking for or getting Doubledealer.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

Post by Denyer »

For 2023 there are going to be weird clearance situations. I'm in two minds whether to get one, but Game has *pre-orders* for items like this such as Speedia Galaxy Shuttles and RID Scourge;

https://www.game.co.uk/en/transformers- ... le-2899413

My view with GS is the train mode's too hard to ignore and the body doesn't use the nosecone so the original toy's only distinctive features aren't there, plus postage is a bit of a rip off, but I do like a space shuttle and the launchpad is a nicer feature with this deco. But they probably should've just done white Astrotrain. And not pitched it as a limited exclusive then allowed it go to discount wholesalers -- apparently Kapow and other retailers got a list of stuff like this they could buy from. The clear message is: don't buy, wait, lose interest even if it does come around like this.

Game have clearly bought in, they've got the Creatures Collide multipack (which they originally listed cheaper than it is now but apparently honoured) plus Motormaster, Blitzwing, the Megatron/Joes mash-up, Tonkanator, Minerva etc -- most at similarly knock down prices. Can't muster the enthusiasm to go for MM at that price either.

It's hilarious they think they can list X-Spanse for anything close to retail when the Entertainer can't give them away for under twenty quid, though.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Denyer wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:46 pmAnd not pitched it as a limited exclusive then allowed it go to discount wholesalers -- apparently Kapow and other retailers got a list of stuff like this they could buy from. The clear message is: don't buy, wait, lose interest even if it does come around like this.
This reminds me of TLK Dleuxe Hot Rod from 2017. Originally a Wal-mart exclusive, he never showed up in stores, and eventually made his way to Ollie's (a discounter) for $8 each. I bought like 5 of them: 1 for me, traded 1 to Clay, and donated the rest to Toys for Tots. Those kids may have only got one good toy that year, but it was one none of their friends had. Because it was never released properly, and the nearest Ollie's was almost an hour away.

That's not to say Hasbro's learned nothing in the past 5 years. I've seen fewer toys at discounters. But, there hasn't been a corresponding improvement in regular retail distribution. So even if collectors are less inclined to wait for discounters because that might not happen, it's not any easier for us to buy figures at regular price.

I used to just go to stores randomly and buy figures that happened to be in stock that looked interesting. Then, I learned that figures would be announced online, and some would be store exclusives. So, I started keeping track of upcoming figures that looked good and where to buy them. But, distribution is so bad, especially with exclusives, that knowing a figure should be out doesn't mean I can get it. So, now I'm back to going to stores randomly and seeing what's in stock.

In theory, I could be missing out on figures I'd really like while buying less impressive figures on impulse. But, there's no guarantee that what looks good ahead of time will be fun in hand. Plus, if I dedicate a lot of time to finding a figure, it has to be really good to justify that effort. Most aren't.

I'd like Legacy Skullgrin, but not enough to pay above retail or make a special trip to look for him. Once a month or so, I'll get bored and spend an afternoon driving around to see what's out there. If I find Skullgrin on one of those trips, fine. If not, I'll make do with CHUG and PotP.

That Galaxy Shuttle is listed for 25 pounds. What do Leaders normally go for? Am I right in thinking that UK prices are close to nominal US prices (ie US$55 Leaders costing 55 pounds) and Brits get nailed on the exchange rate?
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Mostly, but if you look at sites such as Smyths or Amazon at the moment (probably the main toy retailers in the UK) a lot of Leader class stuff is marked down because they know that the price is unrealistic in the economic climate/crisis and post-Xmas hangover particularly.

So with shipping the price is Voyager-ish, which is what Leaders tend towards in size and without bundled pointless stuff. If I wasn't actively collecting other things and could think of where it'd display it'd be an impulse buy. It sort of fits with "Japanese" characters like Artfire, Stepper, Minerva, "Guard City" etc... except it doesn't look a great deal like Galaxy Shuttle, and whilst some alt-modes are cooler than others I'm mainly robot-first. And out of space enough that things have to be exciting so just being a relative bargain is situational.

All of which is to say that I might get one if they're still around in a while but if not, eh.

Only recent-ish regrets are that the Wreckers Springer and Impactor are nicer than the regular retail ones. Hasbro's really worked quite hard to ensure that customers pass on things because they know another version's likely to be just around the corner. If that's what they were going for...
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Denyer wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 9:30 pmOnly recent-ish regrets are that the Wreckers Springer and Impactor are nicer than the regular retail ones. Hasbro's really worked quite hard to ensure that customers pass on things because they know another version's likely to be just around the corner. If that's what they were going for...
You mean like doing a line of "Cybertronian modes" that are very close to Earth modes, covering them in battle damage, then releasing proper, clean Earth modes of the same characters 2 years later?

Speaking of which, the 2 Walgreens near me just got in a total of at least 10 Kingdom Red Alerts, more if there's some in back. Sure, I like this deco a bit more that the Siege Red Alert I already have, but not enough to double-dip on a character I don't really care about. I got Siege on sale for $13; if Kingdom goes on clearance, maybe I'll bite, figuring I'll have paid a total of 1 regular Deluxe price for my preferred Kingdom figure, and gotten a Siege thrown in.

Maybe Hasbro's decided that their poor distribution is a feature, not a bug, and have been running the TF brand on FOMO. Sure, there may be an improved version of this figure coming out soon. Or surplus of this one sent to discounters. But, what if there's not? You might never see this figure again! Better buy it now, while you have the chance!

This sort of happened with me a few months ago, with Tarantualas. The first time I saw him in store, I took him to the check out. The lines were ridiculously long, so I put him down and left, figuring I'd get him next time. I haven't seen him for regular retail since. Do I wish I'd waited? Not really. I've no attachment to the character and own other spider bots.

I've got enough of these figures, and the engineering seems to have plateaued, so it's hard to get too excited about most new ones. I still enjoy getting new figures, but not enough to stress about obtaining them. Looking at what's coming out, there's plenty of figures I'd be willing to pay retail for, but only if it's convenient.


After 3 waves, Legacy is now Legacy: Evolution. Siege and Kingdom only lasted a few waves each. Do you think Hasbro's doing this because retailers tend to order a lot of wave 1, so they want to have as many wave 1s as possible?
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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Mmm, I think that there's a bit of that and they don't seem inclined to produce as much product, so staggered releases/versions are necessary to justify tooling investments -- presumably as if something is popular they can get the moulds out and do another version without much notice, plus potentially get repeat purchases from a diminishing number of customers. Putting out the less popular character or version first definitely seems to have some strategy or forethought behind it in some cases. And there's undeniably a stronger skew than ever towards designs that can be reused, whether it's seekers, Lambos, Bumblebee/Cliffjumper etc, or things where they can get a cartoon/comic/toy version.

FOMO seems to have run its course even with 3P stuff. Pre-ordering isn't particularly worthwhile in a lot of cases; the stuff will be available online somewhere -- often even if supposedly an exclusive.

With engineering I think it more than plateaued, it went too far with movie stuff, etc, and I prefer simpler designs. CW was a welcome change where things that could be transformed in a few seconds on a whim were the norm, and much more like the experience we grew up with. Fussy designs like Kingdom Rodimus that are over-engineered, partly in an attempt to justify a price point, aren't appealing just because they have a higher parts count and more moving parts.

Legacy is an apotheosis of their CHUG product line; any character, any source media, but taking a lot of trouble to appeal to the ageing original audience whilst it's still around. And with one eye on the fact that action figures are fast being priced out of space in big generic retailers such as Walmart, Target, etc so more of the future is online retail until costs make the business scope implode.

Same's happening with things like 80's D&D figures, MOTU, etc. Hasbro has some built-in resilience because "transforming robot" is now a product category in its own right, like LEGO = construction toy = LEGO even if there are cheaper alternatives, whereas with something like MOTU or Marvel Legends big generic retailers are getting fatigued about something they only really carry some of to get customers through the door. We're past the peak of the associated movies too, even if TFs and Marvel/DC are trying to be in it for the long haul.
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Re: Grumpy old men: armchair brand management

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When I say the engineering has plateaued, I don't mean it's reached maximum complexity, but maximum effectiveness. Take the old CHUG Prowl/Streak mold with the integrated shoulder cannons, for example. It was great for when it came out, but has problems that stood out even then: awkward neck plate, fenders that fall off during transformation, bumper knees, etc.

The Earthrise Datsun mold, on the other hand, is about as good as you can expect in a mainline Deluxe. The head sits where it should, without a neck plate or a gap in the hood. It holds together during transformation. All the vehicle parts end up where they should. Improvements in design will be marginal at best.

Denyer wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:55 pmSame's happening with things like 80's D&D figures, MOTU, etc. Hasbro has some built-in resilience because "transforming robot" is now a product category in its own right, like LEGO = construction toy = LEGO even if there are cheaper alternatives, whereas with something like MOTU or Marvel Legends big generic retailers are getting fatigued about something they only really carry some of to get customers through the door.
I hadn't thought about that. Hasbro pretty much does have a lock on transforming robots. Maybe that's part of why they have so many TF lines running concurrently*, so they don't leave any room in the market for anyone else to enter. Most other converting robots I see are simple, cheap figures and, with Authentics, Hasbro's going after that market, too.

* Right now, there's Legacy, Studio Series, Earthspark, and I think some variation of Rescue Bots. Most of these have multiple size classes. There'll probably be a line of simplified, non-SS toys for RotB, too. Earthspark has Warrior and Deluxe figures, with Megatron (so far) available in both.
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