Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Starsaberdub
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Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Starsaberdub »

Does anyone think it will come with a white Optimus Prime or not and why do you think it?
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Denyer
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

SS is slightly more high-end than CW and Hasbro have largely gotten on-board with Magnus as white Prime whenever they want add value (or do a cheap repaint without the blue armour). And the rest of the line has leaned into downsized MP releases, so good odds.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Denyer wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:14 pm SS is slightly more high-end than CW and Hasbro have largely gotten on-board with Magnus as white Prime whenever they want add value (or do a cheap repaint without the blue armour). And the rest of the line has leaned into downsized MP releases, so good odds.
Why have a Studio series Commander class Ultra Magnus now?
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

Hasbro's aims for SS seem to include releases of the main characters from the '86 movie. We'll probably see a Rodimus as well, possibly a refinement of the Kingdom one (and possibly doing the sensible cost-cutting thing of dropping the trailer because I can't imagine a Commander class release sold well).
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Warcry »

I like Kingdom Rodimus, but I got it on clearace for Leader-class prices. It was definitely the most heavily discounted Commander around these parts. The aesthetic definitely isn't very Sunbow, either. I could see them trying to make a cartoonier Rodimus at Leader-class, with the trailer integrated into the robot instead of a separate piece, for Studio Series.

I've been wondering about Commander Magnus a lot, honestly! It's Studio Series, so a transforming "white Prime" cab would run against the stated purpose of the line...Magnus in the 80s fiction didn't have a transforming cab. But I don't see the point of making the toy a Commander without one. The previous Magnus toys that left the cab robot out and just made him transform from truck to super robot were all very simple and I feel like Hasbro could easily pull that off with a Leader-class toy if it's what they were doing.

I think Commander Motormaster proves that they could do a good Magnus based on the G1 transformation at Commander size -- one where the trailer becomes most of the super robot and the design doesn't reuse the inner robot's joints for super mode. That would let them reuse the cab robot for a future Commander-class Powermaster Prime as well, which seems like something they'll want to do sooner or later.

Motormaster (like the recent Leader Primes) had a trailer that was way too short, though. Hopefully that's not the case with Magnus because the coolest thing about the original was that it was a functional car carrier. Since Magnus's trailer isn't solid, though, hopefully they can get it to stretch out a bit longer.

My biggest question is whether we'll get a Selects release in toy/comic light blue. I've been really surprised that the Siege and Kigdom figures didn't get that treatment. The first release will obviously be cartoon dark blue but when I visualize Ultra Magnus, the UK comic version is what comes to mind first.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Denyer wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:14 pm SS is slightly more high-end than CW and Hasbro have largely gotten on-board with Magnus as white Prime whenever they want add value (or do a cheap repaint without the blue armour). And the rest of the line has leaned into downsized MP releases, so good odds.
On the other hand, Hasbro has also largely gotten on-board with cost cutting. The Dinobots didn't use their swords in the show, so Hasbro could pinch a penny or two by omitting them from the SS toys. I'd be surprised if they spent money on what's basically a whole extra Transformer that didn't appear on screen.

I've got Kingdom Magnus, where the cab transforms into a white bot and the trailer becomes armor to create the G1 toon look. I don't think this would work for SS. Both bots have basically the same skeleton, so the trailer can only add so much mass to the cab and allow both bots decent proportions. The trailer ends up undersized, making UM a car carrier than can carry 1 car. I don't remember if UM ever actually carried several cars in the show, but he sure looked like he could.

I'm expecting something more like CW UM, or Legacy Motormaster/Menasor. The trailer becomes the limbs and chest of the big bot, while the cab fills in the torso and contains the big bot head. Basically, CW UM with a toon accurate sculpt and better articulation.

Warcry - I'm thinking the Commander class budget will go towards making UM big enough to actually carry 4 Deluxe cars, two on top, two on bottom. Like you said, Motormaster's trailer was rather short. Compacting that much volume into a bot that scales with other SS figures will take a decent amount of engineering, more than a Leader class of that size would allow. Plus, Hasbro likes money.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Warcry »

The only time I remember seeing Magnus actually carry cars was in the commercial bumper, but that actually stands out a lot more than anything that happened in the show since you'd see it once an episode.



Good point about the cost-cutting. I could definitely see it impacting Magnus's accessories, leaving us with shoulder guns that are just a single piece instead of separate missiles. That would suck. On the other hand Rodimus got an extra weapon and a ton of blast effects, so who even knows these days?

Scale is also a good point. If they're going to be sticklers for that, I'm pretty sure cartoon Magnus should be smaller than the Dinobots. How you'd get that out of a Commander-sized vehicle, I'm not sure. I'm honestly hoping they don't try, and just make the toy as big as a to-scale car carrier needs to be. Though a Magnus as big as Jetfire would definitely feel out of place...
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Warcry wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:40 pmScale is also a good point. If they're going to be sticklers for that, I'm pretty sure cartoon Magnus should be smaller than the Dinobots. How you'd get that out of a Commander-sized vehicle, I'm not sure. I'm honestly hoping they don't try, and just make the toy as big as a to-scale car carrier needs to be. Though a Magnus as big as Jetfire would definitely feel out of place...
The trailer for that Commander-sized vehicle is going to be very hollow. It's a narrow box on top, a flat panel on the bottom, a pillar at each corner, and a folding ramp at the rear. The front and sides of the trailer are basically open spaces, and there's nothing within the trailer.

I'd expect UM's trailer to be longer than Legacy Motormaster's, and take up more space in the box, but weigh much less since MM's trailer is a nearly solid chunk of folded up Menasor.

Could what's basically a framework for a Commander-sized trailer fold into a solid, Leader-sized bot? It look like that's what CW tried, but I never owned it and don't know how it scales with other figures in either mode. With modern engineering, and a Commander-class budget, SS should be able to do a better job.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Warcry »

That's why I have such a hard time wrapping my head around it all. I don't own either of the previous Magnuses, but I've searched up a lot of images of both of them to try to figure out what to expect. Based on these pictures I've stolen from Google, it seems like Kingdom/Siege Magnus more or less gets the height right in robot mode, if you're aiming for the cartoon.

Image

Combiner Wars Magnus absolutely dwarfs him.

Image

But CW Magnus still seems to scale more to Scout/Legend-sized cars than Deluxes in trailer mode.

Image

CW Magnus's trailer is exactly what I'd expect (and hope) SS86 Magnus's trailer will look like. But if it's actually going to be able to carry any of the SS86 or WFC/Legacy cars it's going to need to be a lot bigger. Basically the size of the G1 toy's trailer, I'd think. Even if they use panel-folding tricks to compress some of that trailer mass, I don't know how in the world they'll manage to make a robot that's smaller than the CW one from a bigger trailer. So I'm very curious to see what they come up with!
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

Warcry wrote:I like Kingdom Rodimus, but I got it on clearace for Leader-class prices. It was definitely the most heavily discounted Commander around these parts.
I've just acquired one with some QC issues for twenty quid from someone who in turn got it from a discount clearance outlet (I think for about Leader price) and got sent a replacement. It feels like it has a lot in common with the MP in terms of some of the over-complexity, and the trailer/base part doesn't really share design language with the robot.

My view is that the robot mode should have been slightly simplified, ditto the trailer, the blast effects dropped and then you'd have something more equivalent to Titans Return PM Optimus. There's no way this thing justified about double the Leader price tag.
Tantrum wrote:I'd be surprised if they spent money on what's basically a whole extra Transformer that didn't appear on screen.
Assuming that a Commander Magnus would be roughly the same size, complexity and volume of plastic as Rodimus or MM, I don't think the Magnus armour is more complicated than the MM trailer/base, and that comes with a separate robot.

All guessing though.
Tantrum wrote:Could what's basically a framework for a Commander-sized trailer fold into a solid, Leader-sized bot? It look like that's what CW tried, but I never owned it and don't know how it scales with other figures in either mode.
Same size as the TR PM Optimus -- i.e. towering over voyagers like Grapple or about twice the height of deluxes like the Siege or Legacy ones. There's a third party inner robot with replacement bits that works out quite swish, even if it's a bit pointless as it's never/rarely likely to get transformed. Ignore the Springer/Impactor/Jetfire around them, they're standing on things.

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https://i.imgur.com/gKF5Wsr.jpg
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Denyer wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:58 pmAssuming that a Commander Magnus would be roughly the same size, complexity and volume of plastic as Rodimus or MM, I don't think the Magnus armour is more complicated than the MM trailer/base, and that comes with a separate robot.
I'm not saying they can't design and sell a Commander SS UM with a transformable cab-bot and make a profit. I'm guessing they won't because they can design and sell a Commander SS UM without a separate cab-bot and make more profit. Motormaster/Menasor wouldn't sell without both bots, so they couldn't skimp.

Also, skipping the white Optimus reduces the amount of material the cab needs, which can help in getting the large vehicle to collapse down into a properly scaled bot.

I've got Kingdom UM in vehicle mode now. His trailer's 8 inches long. Judging by Bluestreak, he'd have to be 25% longer to carry two cars in his upper deck. UM is wide enough to carry Bluestreak. It's hard to say if he's tall enough, since Kingdom UM doesn't have a proper lower deck. But, it looks like Streak'd fit if he didn't have his weapons mounted on his roof. SS UM could have a couple extra 5-mm ports for his lower passengers' weapons.

The shoulder armor forms part of the lower deck. The forearm armor just hangs out in the trailer. There are some white panels that form the calves that could fold down. There looks to be enough mass in these three things to make a lower deck that's the proper length. Omit the cab-bot, and you can add the elbows to add a little bit more length. This also eliminates the problem of UM punching a passenger in the bumper.

The big blue head also hangs out in the trailer. No cab-bot means the cab can be hollow, and the big blue head can go in there.

That just leaves extending the upper deck, which currently forms the big bot chest armor. However, Kingdom UM also has much more mass in the sides of the trailer than the G1 design. A clever designer should be able to find a way to redirect this mass (which forms UM's blue lower leg armor) to the upper deck.

So, I think a UM with a 4-car carrier trailer could be made with similar mass to Kingdom UM, which would result in a properly scaled bot. Omitting the cab-bot would help. The real issue would be do you stick with the G1 design of having the bot arms form the entire upper deck? Because if you do, that might force the bot and vehicle modes to have scales relative to each other that aren't compatible with how the modes should scale with other figures.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

Tantrum wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:43 amI'm guessing they won't because they can design and sell a Commander SS UM without a separate cab-bot and make more profit.
They've still got to get it to sell though. MM, Sky Lynx, Jetfire have probably done okay -- although sales on the MM in the current climate have probably taken a hit. It's very doubtful that Rodimus did. Similarly I'd expect the Cybertron Metroplex to be causing a rethink. Not sure that being a big box made of struts is going to scream value enough.

Depends on how their internal accounting works, of course, but the Commander price point seems to be like Titan and be singular for a period within a line, so presumably a flop isn't quite as easy to ignore.

Also little prospect of sales to non-adult fans, who've had multiple other options comparatively recently.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Denyer wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:58 pm I've just acquired one with some QC issues for twenty quid from someone who in turn got it from a discount clearance outlet (I think for about Leader price) and got sent a replacement. It feels like it has a lot in common with the MP in terms of some of the over-complexity, and the trailer/base part doesn't really share design language with the robot.
That's the same feeling I got when I first opened mine up. The robot/car part of the toy feels like an old Masterpiece figure, something from the era that Prowl or Wheeljack came out in. The trailer feels like it came from POTP or Combiner Wars. Both parts feel a bit out of place alongside modern Generations stuff, and even more so alongside each other.
Denyer wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:58 pm My view is that the robot mode should have been slightly simplified, ditto the trailer, the blast effects dropped and then you'd have something more equivalent to Titans Return PM Optimus. There's no way this thing justified about double the Leader price tag.
Yeah, agreed. A big part of the problem is that Rodimus's trailer doesn't do anything. I think the robot itself hits the mark for a modern Leader-class toy, so you're basically paying another full Leader-class price for a box with two big guns inside. The value just isn't there, because the trailer never leaves the shelf it's on.

I feel like this toy was a reaction to the disappointment a lot of people expressed about Earthrise Optimus -- people were upset that there was no Roller, people were upset that most of the G1 trailer's gimmicks didn't carry over, people were upset by how small the trailer was. Siege Magnus too, people were upset that he really couldn't carry any cars. I think the designers figured "okay, the next big Autobot leader with a trailer that we do, we'll make it a Commander so we can give it all the bells and whistles". But then that next leader was Rodimus, who really doesn't need any bells or whistles. And the end result just winds up feeling...overdone?
Denyer wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 7:58 pm Same size as the TR PM Optimus
Is that a custom Marvel head? I like it!
Tantrum wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 3:43 am So, I think a UM with a 4-car carrier trailer could be made with similar mass to Kingdom UM, which would result in a properly scaled bot. Omitting the cab-bot would help. The real issue would be do you stick with the G1 design of having the bot arms form the entire upper deck? Because if you do, that might force the bot and vehicle modes to have scales relative to each other that aren't compatible with how the modes should scale with other figures.
They probably could do this, but if we're talking about a toy with the same mass as the Kingdom Leader-class toy, and less complexity (because the entire cab robot and all it's engineering has been omitted, and the trailer transformation on it's own is not going to gobble up the parts count of an entire Voyager-sized figure), I don't think we're talking about a Commander-class toy. It sounds like a pretty straightforward Leader to me. Which is why the entire prospect of an SS86 Commander Magnus confuses me! Because what you're describing is exactly what you'd think they'd do to make a screen-accurate Magnus, and anything they could add to make the Commander price point make sense takes it farther away from what Studio Series is trying to be.

Maybe Hasbro think they can get away with selling a Leader-sized version of Titanium Ultra Magnus as a Commander? A big chunk of this fandom will make all sorts of excuses for the profiteering and buy it anyway as long as it looks enough like the cartoon. There are certainly enough folks out there happy to excuse Deluxe-sized Voyagers and Voyager-sized Leaders! But with Rodimus as an example, I don't think it would sell very well at MSRP outside of that clique.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

The head's a separate release of a Printformers design, I think -- there's also various revisions of a full printable PM Prime but this was the head only "Marvelous Prime" kit as seen in:

https://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/c ... 110316.php

Back then got but didn't keep the Takara release of the TR body, I genuinely prefer the Hasbro one with the big chest engine block.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Warcry »

Not a huge fan of that TR toy but the 3P head really improves the silhouette. I think the stock head was based on the original toy but it was way too narrow for the brick wall of a robot that we got in TR. Also agreed on the chest, the fake Powermaster look was just sad. Though I think the main advantage of the Hasbro one was having actual feet instead of weird hooves.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Denyer »

Weirdly the stock head goes in the opposite direction to the original -- too small (to match the inner titanmaster scale) rather than massively too big like the old PM toy. The original PM Op actually looks better with this 3P head --

https://tilallaremine.wordpress.com/201 ... and-jb-02/

-- and less oversized shoulder cannons such as the AM Prime ones.

Vaguely on-topic, the constant fudging in TF scales is why I like large ensembles that can be positioned in layers front to back that mask the reliable inconsistencies. SS feels like a response to the 3P obsession with cartoon MP scale, which there's a clear market for, but is also the reason I'm just not interested in it.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Warcry wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:37 pmMaybe Hasbro think they can get away with selling a Leader-sized version of Titanium Ultra Magnus as a Commander? A big chunk of this fandom will make all sorts of excuses for the profiteering and buy it anyway as long as it looks enough like the cartoon. There are certainly enough folks out there happy to excuse Deluxe-sized Voyagers and Voyager-sized Leaders! But with Rodimus as an example, I don't think it would sell very well at MSRP outside of that clique.
I looked up MP-22, and SS UM could just be that scaled down to carry 4 Deluxes instead of 4 MPs. I don't know how big a bot that would be though. I also don't know if there's any fancy MP engineering that would carry over and justify Commander price at that scale.
Warcry wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 6:40 pmScale is also a good point. If they're going to be sticklers for that, I'm pretty sure cartoon Magnus should be smaller than the Dinobots. How you'd get that out of a Commander-sized vehicle, I'm not sure. I'm honestly hoping they don't try, and just make the toy as big as a to-scale car carrier needs to be. Though a Magnus as big as Jetfire would definitely feel out of place...
Kingdom UM is noticeably smaller than SS Sludge, not just in height, but in bulkiness. SS UM could be a bit taller than Kingdom, and have significantly broader shoulders, and still not tower over the dinos. Though, maybe that's not the plan. I remember UM being bigger than other bots with Voyager size figures, like Optimus, but not that much bigger.

Maybe the idea is that Commander UM will be smaller than Commander Jetfire the way Kingom Leader UM is smaller than TR Leader Overlord. How big is the bot mode of Commander Rodimus compared to the SS dinos? I know Rodimus isn't SS, and isn't designed to scale with that line. I'm just curious how small a Commander bot can be.

Or maybe Commander UM will be roughly the same sized as Kingdom UM, and come with the rest of the bot that goes with Blitzwing's Hulk hands to make up the difference.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Denyer wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:53 pm Weirdly the stock head goes in the opposite direction to the original -- too small (to match the inner titanmaster scale) rather than massively too big like the old PM toy. The original PM Op actually looks better with this 3P head --
I figure the original toy's head must have been scaled to look good in the complete super mode with Godbomber included. PM Prime on his own definitely looks like a bobblehead.
Denyer wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:53 pm Vaguely on-topic, the constant fudging in TF scales is why I like large ensembles that can be positioned in layers front to back that mask the reliable inconsistencies. SS feels like a response to the 3P obsession with cartoon MP scale, which there's a clear market for, but is also the reason I'm just not interested in it.
I do like the toys to have a vague sense of logical scale to them, in the sense that Magnus is bigger than Optimus who's bigger than Prowl who's bigger than Bumblebee. But trying to replicate TV show scale charts to this degree of precision has really hurt some toys that had a chance to be really, really good over the last few years. I'm thinking of Blackarachnia and SS86 Hot Rod, and how delicate or frustrating they are to handle. Just making both of them 10% bigger without changing anything would have given us vastly better toys.
Tantrum wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:43 am I looked up MP-22, and SS UM could just be that scaled down to carry 4 Deluxes instead of 4 MPs. I don't know how big a bot that would be though. I also don't know if there's any fancy MP engineering that would carry over and justify Commander price at that scale.
Assuming the robot mode scale would carry over alongside the vehicle scale?

Image

The Autobot cars there are coming up to mid-thigh on MP Magnus. Carry that over to Generations-sized figures and you're talking about a pretty darn big toy. I compared Siege Prowl to some of my bigger figures just to get an idea, and I think that hypothetical Magnus would wind up being around half-way between TR Overlord and Siege Jetfire. I'd be happy with that but it would definitely not be "in scale" if the cartoon is your target.
Tantrum wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:43 am Maybe the idea is that Commander UM will be smaller than Commander Jetfire the way Kingom Leader UM is smaller than TR Leader Overlord. How big is the bot mode of Commander Rodimus compared to the SS dinos? I know Rodimus isn't SS, and isn't designed to scale with that line. I'm just curious how small a Commander bot can be.
Rodimus is a bit shorter than some Leader-class toys. But that's not an apples-to-apples comparison with Magnus, because Magnus uses his whole trailer in robot mode and Rodimus's trailer just kinda sits there being useless.
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

Post by Skyquake87 »

I'm hoping for something either like Legacy Motormaster, but with a longer trailer (I've not liked the rubbishy looking trailers Prime toys come with. Motormaster's is alright, but does feel a bit stubby. I know these shorter trailers exist in the real world. but they always look funny) or a riff on the still excellent Masterpiece version (I have Delta Magnus because the Diaclone colours are the hotness). I'm expecting (hoping? I've two UMs from Siege and Kingdom, sooo...) more of the MP stylings to give us something that can cart around Deluxe cars rather than just look like it's pulling a load of scaffolding. I'm not massively arsed for scale, so long as he's not towering over everyone like Jetfire (although Jetfire is bloody ace).
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Re: Expectations of SS Commander class Ultra Magnus.

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Warcry wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:07 amThe Autobot cars there are coming up to mid-thigh on MP Magnus. Carry that over to Generations-sized figures and you're talking about a pretty darn big toy. I compared Siege Prowl to some of my bigger figures just to get an idea, and I think that hypothetical Magnus would wind up being around half-way between TR Overlord and Siege Jetfire. I'd be happy with that but it would definitely not be "in scale" if the cartoon is your target.
Thanks for that pic. WfC Streak comes up to Kingdom UM's belt buckle, and the hips of SS Sludge and TR Overlord. Matching MP scale would produce a UM taller than those Leaders. This makes sense for a Commander class figure, but it doesn't necessarily make sense for UM to be a Commander.

I still think keeping with the toon accurate spirit of SS would take a UM with a bot mode the same size as Kingdom, with no cab-bot, and a longer trailer that can hold 4 cars. But, yeah, that's a Leader. Maybe Hasbro figures releasing two similar looking Leader UMs so close together is a bad idea, so they're going with a Commander.

Or, they just ran out of ideas for characters they could make into Commanders.

At that size/price, it should come with a cab-bot. Or, maybe they'll find some other way to add play value. Didn't CW's cab open up to store a little guy? If they do go with cab-bot, I don't think the trailer will form armor like Kingdom, the cab-bot would be too small. Instead, the cab will fold into a little box that slots into the big-bot's torso, like Motormaster into Menasor. The hollowness of the trailer will cause the big-bot to be less big than Menasor.

Edit: Maybe the possibility of a Delta Magnus repaint will make Hasbro more likely to spring for the cab-bot. It's easier to justify the extra cost if it'll help sell the mold twice.
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